400,000 year old German 7 ft long spears!

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Take the chimps. We have worked with them for years, and still not a speaking chimp. They just lack the capacity. The neural pathways. We could feed them all the mushrooms in the world, while they listen to Pink Floyd and drop sheets of acid. None of that crap really works unless the capacity is there in the first place (and even then, it is debatable).

Yes we have we haven't taught a chimp to speak verbally, but we have taught them to use sign language and communicate through an icon/hieroglyphics type language called lexigram.

Kanzi is a great bonobo chimpanzee to research, and also koko the gorilla who knew Gorilla Sign Language

Here you can see Kanzi understanding the english language perfectly and can follow simple instructions. It is really amazing.



And here is William Shatner talking about his experience with Koko the Gorilla.

reply to post by UmbraSumus

Agriculture . Yes , it may not sound like the flashiest answer and it did not happen over night , but it certainly was the catalyst which launched our species on the path we are on today.

Exactly, but as I recall, that agriculture didn't happen in Germany till much later. The seeds of Agriculture happened around the Mediterranean where cereal crops were developed and large animal domestication occurred. People started living in urban settings, etc. I think the earliest signs of that were 40,000, maybe 60,000 years ago in what is now Pakistan/ India, later Mesopotamia and Egypt.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Okay...

They claim they used Radiocarbon dating, but radiocarbon dating is only good for about 58,000 to 62,000 years.

en.wikipedia.org...


reply to post by 4nsicphd


If it was one of the alternative methods of dating, then why would they not say so?

Makes no sense to me.

reply to post by Unlimitedpossibilities


that is a good question unlimited, maybe they meant radiometric dating. I do not know much about this stuff but i found this:

Radiocarbon dating, which is probably best known in the general public, works only on things that were once alive and are now dead. It measures the time elapsed since death, but is limited in scale to no more than about 50,000 years ago. Other methods, such as Uranium/Lead, Potassium/Argon, Argon/Argon and others, are able to measure much longer time periods, and are not restricted to things that were once alive. Generally applied to igneous rocks (those of volcanic origin), they measure the time since the molten rock solidified. If that happens to be longer than 10,000 years, then the idea of a young-Earth is called into question.

www.tim-thompson.com...

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Oh yeah I know but I just do not understand why, if these were die-hard scientists (what have you), why would they not write down the correct dating process?

I will try to find another source. Perhaps they have more information.

400,00 years is nothing. Must be a diversion from the real old artifacts found and forgotten. Think millions and billions of years.

www.mcremo.com...

Originally posted by zosimos
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

if going with the second theory that you presented, i think that some early human ate some Psilocybin mushrooms or some other psycoactive substance that completely changed their perspective of the world. but i dont know. just speculation

Way to pass other's ideas off as your own... It's not a bad theory. I've seen Terence McKenna, Graham Hancock, and even Bill Hicks mention it.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by zosimos
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

if going with the second theory that you presented, i think that some early human ate some Psilocybin mushrooms or some other psycoactive substance that completely changed their perspective of the world. but i dont know. just speculation

That is illogical speculation. Temporary psychosis will not improve the neural pathways required to achieve higher functioning. Greater understanding comes from physical changes.

I don't think you understood what he was saying. The theory is that fully modern humans have been around for 200,000 years or so, but 40,000 years ago, we started tampering with hallucinogenics which created a sort of "cultural revolution" inspiring the very foundations of modern civilization such as artwork, spirituality, burying our dead, etc.

It is a good theory because there is no evidence of these practices before 40,000 years ago, leaving a 160,000 year gap (roughly) between man becoming fully modern, and the introduction of culture.

If you've taken mushrooms, then you probably would understand just how viable this theory is. If you haven't, then I highly doubt one could understand.

reply to post by MischeviousElf
Nice post Elf, I always agree with you about are hairy relatives...chimps, orang-utans etc

reply to post by 2manyquestions

Even if Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten was not responsible for dating the spear, the fact that someone so reputable is capable of fraud and perpetrating a lie within the scientific community makes me question just about anything that comes out of there.

Zieten wasn't responsible for the wooden spears....Dr. Hartmut Thieme was. The spears remain dated to around the 400 000ya mark and the research around them supports the date. Questioning science is the healthy thing to do, in the case of Zeiten, he was caught out by fellow archaeologists and proven a fraud by the dating systems that are in place.

I've noticed a few posters asking how the spears were dated? It was carbon-dating cross-referenced to the other evidence found in the layer in which they were discovered...

Radiocarbon dating has confirmed that three wooden spears found in a coal mine in Schöningen, near Hannover, Germany, are the oldest complete hunting weapons ever found. Some 380,000 to 400,000 years old, the six- to 7.5-foot javelins were found in soil whose acids had been neutralized by a high concentration of chalk near the coal pit. They suggest that early man was able to hunt, and was not just a scavenger. The development of such weapons may have been crucial to the settling of Stone Age northern Europe, whose cold climate and short daylight hours limited hunting.

World's Oldest Spears

The style of flint tools and their cut marks on the bones of animals from specific periods of time all helps to date the layer the spears were in.

Level 1, excavated in 1992, contained flint artefacts and three worked branches of the common silver fir Abies alba. The wooden tools (length 17-32 cm) have a diagonal groove cut into one end, probably for holding flint tools or flakes. If this supposition is correct, these implements represent the oldest composite tools in the world. More than one thousand large mammal bones have been found: straight tusked elephant Palaeoloxodon antiquus, rhinoceros Stephanorhinus kirchbergensis, red deer Cervus elaphus, Ursus sp. and Equus sp. There are also numerous small mammals: Arvicola terrestris cantiana - Trogontherium cuvieri association (Schöningen 12, find layer 1). Analysis of the Arvicola molars from Schöningen II, Level 1 (the Reinsdorf Interglacial) suggests a correlation with the Homo erectus site of Bilzingsleben (Thuringia).

Prehistory Letters etc etc 1998

reply to post by witchfinder

Hi Kandinsky,I would certainly tend towards the first option that you presented. but also, let us not forget that the theory of evolution is just that. A theory,dismissed not too long ago but accepted now. I have read a lot of your posts before,and I am fairly new,so regards mate

Hiya, the Theory of Evolution has been accepted due to the growing mountain of supporting evidence...but I agree, times change and ideas develop. Thanks for letting me know you've read some of my posts...in some threads it's possible all the posters have me on ignore

reply to post by Harte
Hiya Harte, nice to see you in a good mood. I guess discussing real artifacts is more interesting than debating how many annunaki can dance on the head of a gold pin Here's a paper you might enjoy reading...HUman Evolution in Europe (illustrated)

reply to post by Son of Will

I don't think you understood what he was saying. The theory is that fully modern humans have been around for 200,000 years or so, but 40,000 years ago, we started tampering with hallucinogenics which created a sort of "cultural revolution" inspiring the very foundations of modern civilization such as artwork, spirituality, burying our dead, etc.

I used to support this theory too during my 'experimental' youth. Since then, I've used a little more critical thinking and can be almost 100% sure that using hallucinogens (ergot or psilocybe etc) wouldn't be responsible for leaps in evolution.

There's no reason to believe humans missed out on eating hallucinogens in the previous 2.5 million years. Over the millennia we'd likely have tried a bit of everything.

Our knowledge of medicinal plants will go back beyond what we consider to be conscious thought. Chimps and insects eat fermented fruit to get drunk. Dogs eat some grasses to allay stomach problems, elephants and parrots cross miles and miles to eat mineral-rich clays...it's an animal instinct at work. In this light, it seems impossible that we wouldn't know what plants or fungus were poison and which ones for fun or mystical way before the 40kya mark.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


omg how cute !! more jambo pics please

Originally posted by Kandinsky
I've noticed a few posters asking how the spears were dated? It was carbon-dating cross-referenced to the other evidence found in the layer in which they were discovered...

Radiocarbon dating has confirmed that three wooden spears found in a coal mine in Schöningen, near Hannover, Germany, are the oldest complete hunting weapons ever found.

World's Oldest Spears

As was stated, the spears themselves could not possibly have been dated this way.

RC dating is only good to about 50-60 K ybp or so.

That's a real problem here.


Harte

reply to post by Harte

As was stated, the spears themselves could not possibly have been dated this way. RC dating is only good to about 50-60 K ybp or so. That's a real problem here.

You're right, I was too quick off the bat there. I'm guessing the dating is related to the link I posted in the same post that describes the contents of the layer the spears were discovered in.

Since 1992, several Lower Palacolithic sites have been discovered in Middle Pleistocene interglacial sediments, from 8-15 m below the present ground surface. The oldest evidence of human occupation, discovered in 1994, dates to the earliest part of the Holsteinian complex (Schöningen I); it comprises flint tools, flakes and numerous burnt flints together with faunal remains of steppe elephant (Mammuthus trogontheni), bovids, horse and red deer (Schöningen 13 I).

The Schöningen II channel is filled by sediments of the new discovered Reinsdorf-Interglacial and the ensuing Fuhne cold stage, containing five levels of organic muds and peats (1-5). Level 1 probably represents both the early and interglacial maxima of the Reinsdorf. Correlations of the Schöningen sequence to other areas suggest that the Reinsdorf was deposited during the forth last interglacial (OIS 11).

Level 1, excavated in 1992, contained flint artefacts and three worked branches of the common silver fir Abies alba. The wooden tools (length 17-32 cm) have a diagonal groove cut into one end, probably for holding flint tools or flakes. If this supposition is correct, these implements represent the oldest composite tools in the world. More than one thousand large mammal bones have been found: straight tusked elephant Palaeoloxodon antiquus, rhinoceros Stephanorhinus kirchbergensis, red deer Cervus elaphus, Ursus sp. and Equus sp. There are also numerous small mammals: Arvicola terrestris cantiana - Trogontherium cuvieri association (Schöningen 12, find layer 1). Analysis of the Arvicola molars from Schöningen II, Level 1 (the Reinsdorf Interglacial) suggests a correlation with the Homo erectus site of Bilzingsleben (Thuringia).

LOWER PALAEOLITHIC HUNTING WEAPONS FROM SCHÖNINGEN, GERMANY - THE OLDEST SPEARS IN THE WORLD

What led me to the paper I suggested you might find interesting, was the mention above of arvicola molars and H. Erectus. The arvicola terrestris was a vole. Prior to around 500 000kya this critter had teeth roots. The teeth of the one in the 'spears cave' had none. Perhaps that provides an outer limit to what age these thing could be?

The Trogontherium cuvieri went extinct in Europe between 424,000 and 374,000 years ago (here and here) The Steppe Mammoth is thought have been extinct in Europe prior to 370 000ya.

If these dates are reasonably accurate they put some goalposts in place. Still...there does seem to be a shortage of explanations for the dates...

It'd be interesting if more information was available about the stone tools recovered. Much is written about the spears and very little about stone tools. I've trawled through some papers without much luck...other than being side-tracked

Hans Lune was a fan of these spears...shame he's no longer around to maybe shed more light...

EDIT for walloftextitis

[edit on 8-4-2010 by Kandinsky]

Originally posted by Kandinsky

You're right, I was too quick off the bat there. I'm guessing the dating is related to the link I posted in the same post that describes the contents of the layer the spears were discovered in.


It'd be interesting if more information was available about the stone tools recovered. Much is written about the spears and very little about stone tools. I've trawled through some papers without much luck...other than being side-tracked

Hans Lune was a fan of these spears...shame he's no longer around to maybe shed more light...

You're right that there are ways to work around an older date by different associations.

You know Hans will be back - right?

Look for him this summer.

Harte

I still don't understand why these spears have to be proof of modern human history going back a couple of hundred thousand years. Neanderthal used spears, Heidelbergensis used spears, when hunting big game.

Did they find anything, along with those spears, that is clearly not attributed to these species? something like, I don't know, a statue or carving, some kind of drawing, a burial site?

About this one:

400,00 years is nothing. Must be a diversion from the real old artifacts found and forgotten. Think millions and billions of years.

www.mcremo.com...

why limit yourself to billions? Think trillions or quadrillions of years, what's stopping you? Some "accepted" or 'mainstream' nonsense that the universe itself is not that old? Big deal, it IS much older, they just don't want YOU to know about it.

i don't think anyone is attributing this to a "human", atleast i wasn't. Some kind of human, neanderthal, ape or whatever made this around 400,000 years ago.

If it really is that old you have to question what was going on on Earth 500,000 years ago and a million years ago.

reply to post by Maegnas

I still don't understand why these spears have to be proof of modern human history going back a couple of hundred thousand years. Neanderthal used spears, Heidelbergensis used spears, when hunting big game. Did they find anything, along with those spears, that is clearly not attributed to these species? something like, I don't know, a statue or carving, some kind of drawing, a burial site?

Psssst..don't get 'em started!

From my perspective I don't care what people make of the spears. It's a pleasant exception in A&LCs to have a long thread based on something tangible. I'm running out of energy to respond to the same old claims and ideas...and then defend them.

Do you remember the neanderthal with a chest wound thread, earlier this year? Some guy managed to tie it in to the spear that killed Jesus, annunaki and Goliath! The general sanity in this thread is heart warming. I'm very surprised how spears, caves and a time period when annunaki were slaving us out for gold and bitches haven't caught the attention yet.

Originally posted by PowerSlave
reply to post by UmbraSumus

 

We have come a very long way in just a few thousand years, compared to hundreds of thousands of years. To suggest I am sitting here typing on my laptop because man figured out how to grow stuff?

I just cannot afford to buy it.

because man figured out how to grow stuff

(barely scratching the surface of the topic here .....)

While some were engaged in providing food surpluses, it freed up other people to do other things . Nomadic lifestyles are not conducive to producing `goods` in any great abundance .
So with this division of labour and the early beginnings of trade between peoples and groups , these settled communities centralised our knowledge base . Early trade and cooperation between peoples who were not kin, sweep our tendencies towards nepotism to one side ..... in time agreements became contracts & laws as each generation built on the stability created by the previous generation.

If everybody is concerned with feeding themselves and their families , there isn`t much time for other things .

For starters.....
How much time did you spend foraging for food today ?

How much time did you spend hunting/ trapping or fishing today ?

Did you butcher the meat yourself ? Did it take you long to gather kindling and work a coal into a flame ?

How much time do you think you would have at your `laptop`, if you had to do a fraction of these tasks ?

Did you built the laptop yourself ?...... you get the gist of it right ?



posted by PowerSlave

To suggest I am sitting here typing on my laptop because man figured out how to grow stuff?

Agriculture led to urban civilisation , and i believe that just recently , for the first time in human history, mankind's population consists of a greater number of metropolitan dwellers, than rural dwellers .

=============================================
To be so dismissive, one must surely have an alternate theory, would you care to share it ?.






[edit on 8-4-2010 by UmbraSumus]

[edit on 8-4-2010 by UmbraSumus]

Very interesting! Great find and discussion!

At first look at the photos I was going suggest they looked like they might be stabbing instead of throwing spears. However, in reading one of the articles posted in the OP I noticed..

The spears were obviously made with care. After chopping down an appropriate tree and stripping off the bark and branches, the ancient hunters carved the tip at the base of the trunk, where the wood is hardest.

The spears were shaped to be thickest toward the front with a long tapering tail, like modern javelins, which suggests they were meant for throwing rather than jabbing.

Which does lead me to think of throwing as well. However, given that these are not small spears by any means and that we know of at least one instance where there is would evidence...

That early man hunted big game is supported by the recent discovery of a fossilized rhinoceros shoulder blade with a projectile wound at Boxgrove, England, dated to 500,000 years ago.

Now then. this is a large, thick boned, and likely heavily muscled animal. We aren't talking a white tail deer here.

To create this impact either there must be some spear throwers around or these guys had amazing strength, or both.

Originally posted by hisshadow
reply to post by BeastMaster2012

 

omg how cute !! more jambo pics please

Here are some more Jambo pics, glad you liked them!

This first one is one of my favorites, Jambo found a cicada and tour off one of the wings and started staring at it for awhile, she was totally obsessed with the cicada and wing. This moment makes you want to know what she is thinking about in her head!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/704d5709d2022ae9.jpg[/atsimg]

And here is Jambo playing with sand, i love the look of concentration on her face as shes staring at the sand.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/10b3f26821656c09.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Maegnas
I still don't understand why these spears have to be proof of modern human history going back a couple of hundred thousand years. Neanderthal used spears, Heidelbergensis used spears, when hunting big game.

Did they find anything, along with those spears, that is clearly not attributed to these species? something like, I don't know, a statue or carving, some kind of drawing, a burial site?

Many here may not be aware that it is correct to refer to any member of the genus Homo as "human."

400,00 years is nothing. Must be a diversion from the real old artifacts found and forgotten. Think millions and billions of years.

www.mcremo.com...

why limit yourself to billions? Think trillions or quadrillions of years, what's stopping you?

What's stopping him is probably that he didn't know what came after "billions."

If you hadn't told him, perhaps we wouldn't have had to put up with it as often as we now will.

Good work.

Harte