The LHC at CERN: a Creator and not a Collider Folks!!!!

Edit to add: I completely understand what is meant by a collider, but in my opinion that wordage is misleading and causes the general public to be completely clueless when it comes to the LHC and its possibilities. So now read on.

I have been reading a good number of the threads regarding the LHC and how it works.
The title of this thread is a bit misleading, but please read and tell me what you think is really going on.

I am writing this thread in order to get some feedback on what people think once I get out my spiel.

NOTE TO MODS: Please read the idea of the thread before deleting this. I searched, but I couldn't find something similar to this idea. I mean, there are a good bit of threads about the LHC.

So here is how the LHC works.

It doesn't really "collide" things in order to destroy them like one might think, but quite the opposite.

Instead of destroying matter into energy with a collision, it gathers enough energy to create matter with a collision.

It is like the opposite of an atom bomb.

All of the media seems to portray it as an instrument of destructive collision, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

So....

We know that they gave us the World Wide Web.

And...

I have read the Stargate post, but it doesn't add up to me?

With that being said. We know that TPTB are trying to find the Higgs-Bosom or God particle, but what do you folks at ATS think about the fact that at CERN they are literally trying to create the key to life itself. Kind of like Frankenstein.

They aren't colliding a darn thing.

They are creating something.

But exactly WHAT will they create?

[edit on 4/3/2010 by Josephus23]

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Josephus23]

reply to post by Josephus23


I agree with you that they are seeking to create 'something', the beginings of life itself, That is playing 'God', so what would be the purpose of learning how to create a universe, life, and all that exsists within? The question answers itself. Power. There is power in knowledge. But who will own this power?

reply to post by space cadet


Exactly my point.

If we look at things like the WWW, which CERN has so graciously bequeathed the world, then it is easy to see it as "benevolent", but I don't think that most people get what is REALLY going on there.

The whole double think of the way it's presented sends off red flags for me immediately.
I mean "collider"....

Come ON. People think they are destroying itty bitty particles there.
NOT CREATING THINGS with mind boggling amounts of the people's energy and resources.

I am fairly well versed in science, but psychology is my forte.

So...

I am really hoping for some physicists with an open mind to chime in on this one, because I think that the Shiva thread that is posted on the front page is a bit off of the mark.

I would rather talk science than simple mythology,
UNLESS, that is, one can show that they both truly can be cohesively presented as to co-exist.

Plus I want to know where the real money is coming from for this.

Who really owns it?

Is it government contributions solely, and if so who?

Were bonds sold on the open market?

The mandate for CERN is like NASA. All that is found and learned is to be used for the public good, but does anyone on this board buy that load of poop for one minute?

I am interested to know what you think about a few of these things in a bit more detail space cadet?



[edit on 4/3/2010 by Josephus23]

[edit on 4/3/2010 by Josephus23]

No. The LHC is a collider.

The LHC does collide nuclear particles at speeds approaching the speed of light. When the particles collide matter is converted into energy so in a sense, the particles are destroyed.

But you are correct that the "destruction" is not the goal. What is being studied is the way the energy condenses back into matter after the collision.

The LHC has nothing to do with the "key to life". It has more to do with learning more about existence itself. How matter (not life) came to be. Why it is the way it is.

Originally posted by Josephus23

Plus I want to know where the real money is coming from for this.

Who really owns it?

Is it government contributions solely, and if so who?

Were bonds sold on the open market?

Membership and Financing (Budget 2009)

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Phage


I agree Phage it does collide things, and in my OP I recognized that it my wording was misleading, but I am more interested in intellectual speculation than what could be found on their website.

Like what could happen when that much energy is basically fused together in order to create matter?

I don't buy the black-hole, mumbo jumbo, but I want to hear people (especially those with more knowledge than me on this subject) speculate upon... just the sheer possibilities of trying to control and direct that much power.

In order to create something.

I know that you mostly stay inside a very well constructed box of proven rational experience, and I admire you for your direct skeptical approach and your Twainesque swagger, but I am looking for more of a science-fiction sort of possibility kind of a speculation on this one, but based upon science.

I guess that I am literally asking to be schooled, but in an imaginative and rational way.
Minus any pedantic charm.


[edit on 4/4/2010 by Josephus23]

funded by and built in collaboration with over 10,000 scientists and engineers from over 100 countries as well as hundreds of universities and laboratories.[5]

built by the European Organization for Nuclear Research

The results expected:

CERN scientists estimate that if the Standard Model is correct, a single Higgs boson may be produced every few hours. At this rate, it may take about two to three years to collect enough data to discover the Higgs boson unambiguously. Similarly, it may take one year or more before sufficient results concerning supersymmetric particles have been gathered to draw meaningful conclusions.[1]

So this loosely names the 'owners' as scientists from around the world, making the entire event and process a collaborated effort by science alone, no government involvment. IMO that would give scientists quite an ace in the hole, power, if every experiement proves itself as wished. In the end, they will conclude other diminsions do or do not exist, they will conclude the big bang theory is either right or very very wrong, the answers of the begining of 'us' could be answered. I fail to see why though, why does science choose to do this at this time, and what will they do with any result.

reply to post by Josephus23

Well even in my cozy little box I'm aware of what the "true" purpose of the LHC is. So far the only speculation I've seen concerning anything approaching real science fiction about the collider is the possibility of the formation of mini black holes. But in order for that to happen it would mean that we live in a very different universe than we think we do. That being the case, there would be any number of different directions to go but rather than science you would be entering the realm of fantasy.

What ever the LHC creates, other than increased knowledge, will be extremely short lived.

Originally posted by Josephus23
...They aren't colliding a darn thing...

That's not true. It's called a collider because it collides beams of protons head-on. So the name "Large Hadron Collider" is NOT a misnomer -- the machine is in fact a collider which will in fact be colliding two streams of matter together, and in the process breaking that matter down into smaller bits.

The reason for doing these high-speed collisions is to simulate what the universe was like in the milliseconds after the big bang. As the theory goes, the universe when through distinct stages of "being" during those first few milliseconds.

The universe was a much more energetic place right after the big bang. a few millionths of a second later, the energy began to dissipate. A few millionths of a second after that, the energy dissipated more.

As the energy dissipated, particles (like quarks), which could only exist on their own in the previously higher energy of the universe, could no longer exist on their own in the lower energy universe, and and thus began to combine with other particles (other quarks). This is how the first protons formed.

Because those quarks can't exist on their own in the "ambient" low energy of the universe, the only way to see those quarks is by adding energy -- and that is done by colliding streams of protons. Inside a particle collider during the collision, the energy of that collision would mimic the higher energies of the first few moments after the Big Bang -- and quarks can exist separately in that high energy. Therefore the individual quarks that make up the proton can then be detected/seen.

The quarks are not "created" by the collision, but rather they are "liberated" from their bonds which is preventing them from being detected so that they become detectable.

Colliders besides the LHC have been detecting quarks for years. The LHC -- being more powerful -- will hopefully collide protons with enough energy to mimic an even earlier time in the birth of the universe...a few millionths of s second after the big bang. The hope is that the even higher energy collisions being done at the LHC would even further separate quarks into whatever they are made of, and/or perhaps see other fundamental particles -- fundamental particles that only existed in the high energies of the early universe.

So, yes -- they do collide things. And, yes -- those collisions will cause protons to disintegrate into their component particles. Some may say those component particles are being "created", but that is misleading. Those component particles were always there. They were simply undetectable.

It's like taking apart a machine to see what it's made of/how it works. To take apart the machine, you may use a screwdriver. To take apart matter to see what it's made of, you use a collider instead of a screwdriver.



[edit on 4/4/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]

reply to post by Pauligirl


So if one was to look at the list of countries who donate to CERN, 18 of 20 are in the EU.

The Central Bank of the EU, as all central banks are under the control of the Rothschild family. (We could debate this, but that is another thread)

Actually, all of the countries who show any sort of membership, even if it is just observing, have central banks tied to the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland.
(Which is now managed by "elite wealth", of course the names are all the same, but who really knows. At least we know why Switzerland never goes to war. They pay everyone else to do it for them)

So we also know that the LHC has created anti-hydrogen.

The point that I am making is that it is a creator.
It is a corporate machine, and now, thank you very much, I know who owns it.

And I do not think that we do.

I once heard a great explanation of what Cern's LHC does, and I'm going to attempt to completely slaughter it here:

Basically, if you imagine that the particles being accelerated are a pocket watch, and scientists there are trying to figure out what the watch is comprised of because the technology does not exist to disassemble it further. At the moment of impact, the watch is blasted into a million pieces, and the LHC photographs the event. Then, scientists review the photos to examine each piece, it's relative place within the watch, and how the piece reacts once released.

(Does that sound about right Phage?)

Originally posted by Josephus23


But exactly WHAT will they create?

[edit on 4/3/2010 by Josephus23]

Dark Matter. Mystery solved

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I understand what you mean by colliding, and I said so in my OP.

But even your post makes it seem as if they are solely colliding things, and that is not the case.

They CREATE things that decay quickly so as to appear that they are destroyed from a collision.

I understand how the machine works. I understand all of what you are saying, but...

I am very interested in that could happen in creating the matter particle.

I know that they collide things at CERN, but that is misleading to say that because it is more like double think.

They more so fuse things through creation that cannot be contained in our universe so they "explode" or dissipate because of the intense amount of energy used to "create" them.

But it can create things with a longer half life than a million bajillionth of a second (I know I made that number up).

Like Anti-Hydrogen.

So what is the Higgs Boson and what could happen if we actually created matter?

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Josephus23]

reply to post by Josephus23

Rather than "anti-hydrogen" it can be called an antiproton. Antiprotons exist in nature as cosmic rays and have been produced at Fermilab as well as Cern.

They don't usually last long because sooner or later they find a proton and that's sort of the end of it.

reply to post by treemanx


I think that you are half right.

They create things that decay so fast that it appears as though they are destroyed.

They most certainly create things at CERN.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Josephus23

 

Rather than "anti-hydrogen" it can be called an antiproton. Antiprotons exist in nature as cosmic rays and have been produced at Fermilab as well as Cern.

They don't usually last long because sooner or later they find a proton and that's sort of the end of it.

So then we know that it is possible to create things through "collisions" that have a half life that allow them to exist in our known universe. Ever how short that might be.

And we, meaning the society collective, can do that at energy levels half of those possible at CERN?

If so, then we can at least speculate on the existence of super symmetry. And "anti-matter" (which we have supposedly created, correct?)

Then why do we need so much energy to create the Higgs-Boson "matter" "god particle"?

Should it not be the easiest to detect?

reply to post by space cadet


The vast majority of the funding most definitely comes from Governments.
The scientists did the creating part, but I feel confident that they will be rewarded well.

20 countries in total, if I am not mistaken.
All bowing down to the Bank of International Settlements.

The money could be spent much better elsewhere.

Like providing the world with clean healthy drinking water.

The entire thing doesn't add up to me and it seems like a money pit designed to produce something that logically seems as if it would be THE easiest and most prolific piece of matter in the universe.

Whatever these guys are up to, it is not for the benefit of society as a whole.

I mean, are we really better off with the World Wide Web?
Or are we that much more disconnected from that which the LHC was designed to understand.

The REAL world.

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Josephus23]

Originally posted by Tomis_Nexis

Originally posted by Josephus23


But exactly WHAT will they create?

[edit on 4/3/2010 by Josephus23]

Dark Matter. Mystery solved

What do you think is the point in doing this and how will it affect us?

reply to post by Josephus23

It takes a great deal of energy to break a proton into small enough pieces. It takes a great deal of energy to convert particles into energy.

reply to post by Phage


Of course it takes a lot of energy to create a proton, but should it not take more energy to create something like a positron?

I am baffled as to why it takes so much energy to create the particle that is supposedly responsible for matter itself.

It seems to me like the adage of the old man riding around on a horse with a lantern in his hand looking for a light.

Does anyone not have any other speculation as to what the point is to this experiment?

I would love to hear the black hole explanation if someone would attempt to do it justice.

Or the Stargate theory or whatever. I would simply request that someone present some shred of science with their theory.