Christianity is a Conspiracy; ALL of you are going to HELL

reply to post by Mykahel


As with a lot of threads , this one has been derailed into something that does not deal with the meat of the OP .

I care not whether you are christian , muslim , jewish or anything else .

Go back and read the OP again .

And by the way , christians are not the only people on earth who do good deeds . You all do not have a monopoly on that .

I do good deeds also , but I don't have to be a christian to care about my fellow man , animals , and nature .

The point is , we are ALL going to HELL . READ THE OP !

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool , than to open your mouth and remove all doubt "

This thread was posted in the hopes of an intelligent audience response . But , as usual , here come the 'blind-faithers' .

reply to post by Mykahel



double post

[edit on 11-4-2010 by okbmd]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
OK please show us these emminent sources.

www.garyhabermas.com...

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And since you obviously mean that Hades and Gehenna etc. is the same thing, can you please tell us where YOU are going when you die if you don't end up in Hell, and cite some scripual proof please.

A person who has accepted Christ goes straight to Heaven when they die.
2Cor 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens.

2Cor 5:6
Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:



[edit on 4/11/2010 by texastig]

Originally posted by okbmdI do good deeds also , but I don't have to be a christian to care about my fellow man , animals , and nature .

I never said you didn't, and of course non-Christians do good deeds, but good deeds don't get you to Heaven.

Originally posted by okbmdThe point is , we are ALL going to HELL .

No, I read it, and since you can not understand it, I will try it one more time for you. We all 'possibly' will go to Sheol (in its original Hebrew definition). Hell, however had a quite different meaning. Hell in the standard sense could mean Hades, Gehenna, lake of Fire, Abyss, Tartarus, everlasting darkness, and possibly others. These can NOT be randomly interchanged at all. The key is to understand what is written and taking it in context.

Why would the grave be considered everlasting darkness and gnashing of teeth? It of course means much more than simply 6 feet under. Example, if that was all Hell was meant to be why and where would the consequences of ones life either gather rewards or in this case torment? Dead in the graves respect is just dead, but humans are and can be immortal beings in a sense. Our soul can reside outside the flesh.

So in answer to the OP. NO WE ALL WILL NOT BE GOING TO HELL. I have refuted this wholeheartedly you can just not follow it.

Also, just to humor you, there will be those that will not see the grave. There are already at least (2) whom did not, Enoch being just one. In the future there will be those that will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and will never see decay.

Originally posted by okbmd"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool , than to open your mouth and remove all doubt "

And you proved it.

The word Christ isn't a name, it's an entitlement which means enlightnement. Christianity is a loose term which originally, though now long subverted, meant enlightment for everyone, I'd highly reccomend a RATS subscription and browse through this thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by edsinger


Funny you highlight a post that was not even directed to you .

You have refuted NOTHING .

Go ahead and follow your majical / mythical beliefs , I don't care .

So , you are saying that the 'two' who didn't see the grave , somehow took their flesh-and-blood bodies to 'heaven' with them ?

This is getting more hilarious with each new post of yours !

reply to post by twitchy


You are correct my friend .

Jesus - the - Christ . Jesus , the enlightened one .

Originally posted by okbmdYou have refuted NOTHING .

Oh but I have, I have shown that you do not know the definition of Hell. It was fairly simple to do so.

Originally posted by okbmdGo ahead and follow your majical / mythical beliefs , I don't care .

Be that as it may, you are so entitled.

Originally posted by okbmdSo , you are saying that the 'two' who didn't see the grave , somehow took their flesh-and-blood bodies to 'heaven' with them ?

Gen 5:22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years.
Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

and

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

And lest we forget,

2 Ki 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.


Neither saw death, or Sheol, and I would also argue that neither saw Hell.




BTW, Christ is not a name, its a noun. Its stands for Messiah in Greek.

reply to post by edsinger


Here you are again , trying to prove the bible with the bible .

Your post proves nothing . The more you reply , the more hopeless you appear .

And still , you have refuted nothing I put forth in my OP .

It is people like you that give christians a bad name . It is people like you , who are helplessly DRUGGED ON JESUS that make it so much easier for the powers-that-be to control and dominate the minds of millions .

Geeezzz , you're a real work of art .


And by the way , I don't recall saying that 'christ' was a name . Just more dribble on your part in lieu of a legitimate argument .

[edit on 11-4-2010 by okbmd]

Unfortunately, I cannot find my reference for the term "Gaheena." It was my understanding that Gaheena was a translation for the lake of fire. The lake of fire is where all souls go to be cleansed of their mortal sins before entry into heaven. Guess I must have lived in another dismension or something.

For the record, I am not a religious person. I try to be spiritual, but I still find that difficult to practice. Sometimes I just want to be mean.

Originally posted by okbmd
Here you are again , trying to prove the bible with the bible .

Your post proves nothing . The more you reply , the more hopeless you appear .

And still , you have refuted nothing I put forth in my OP .

It is people like you that give christians a bad name . It is people like you , who are helplessly DRUGGED ON JESUS that make it so much easier for the powers-that-be to control and dominate the minds of millions .

Geeezzz , you're a real work of art .


And by the way , I don't recall saying that 'christ' was a name . Just more dribble on your part in lieu of a legitimate argument .

[edit on 11-4-2010 by okbmd]

Edsinger and I have had more than a few debates here on ATS and believe me, we hail from completely different points of view, but I have to speak up in his defense in this case, he's a well respected member of this community and is really underserving of your admonishment, frankly, as is Christianity itself.
I'm not a bible thumping brimstone slinger, but Jesus had pretty much one simple message equating to love and equality, and I'm sorry that seems to be something you feel compelled to despise. Yeah there's contradictions in the bible, yes there are discrepancies, and yeah there's even preists who do bad things to children, but as a whole, I find the precept of true christian ideaology far superior to spiritual ignorance and I get really tired of seeing these almost venemous attacks on the beliefs of others regardless of what they are.
Who are you and what do you believe in? If the answer to that is only what you see, then explain the sparkle of a smile in someone eyes or the joy that comes from a hearty laugh, the fear of your own mortality. There's no reason for it, it's just there. For many folks, religon is the same. Why be a jerk about it? I can't dance, but I don't get off on going to dance clubs and bashing those who can. I have better things to do, and I'm sure you do as well, one of them is apparently a little research as Edsinger has pointed out. No offense meant OP, but your thread is intentionally immflamatory, needlessly.

Edit:
Howdy Edsinger Long time no see.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by twitchy]

reply to post by twitchy


edsinger tells me over and again that he has refuted my original post , and as far as I can tell , he has done nothing of the sort , but in his next post he tells me once again that he has .

edsinger brought drug usage into the discussion , so yes , I picked it up and ran with it .

I stand by my original post that we all are going to a place called 'hell' , for the simple fact that 'hell' is the GRAVE .

Contrary to what you or edsinger may think or continue to imply , I HAVE did my research , otherwise I never would have had the audacity to make such a bold statement .

If you find my presentation offensive then I apologize for that . However , I do not apologize for the vigor and determination you will find in most of my arguments .

Believe me when I say that I have had it up to here with people who go around telling others that they are goimg to HELL because they don't believe the jesus story .

The people who condemn others to this 'HELL' are under the assumption that hell equates with a lake of fire that burns eternally . IT DOES NOT .

That has NOT been refuted by edsinger .

He may be a respected member around 'these parts' . That does NOT automatically make him RIGHT simply because he can quote the bible .

Maybe you should go back yourself and read thru all of my posts , and then tell me that I haven't done my research before you imply such a thing .

This thread was posted for debate , and debate it has been .

The fact is , that 'hell is the grave' has NOT been refuted .

I'm sorry that you feel the need to chastise me for my vigor , but with all due respect , I am a grown man and I don't need you to come along and tell me to play well with others or remind me to color within the lines .

That is not your job . That is why there are MODERATORS .

Nuff said ?

[edit on 12-4-2010 by okbmd]

Originally posted by okbmd
I'm sorry that you feel the need to chastise me for my vigor , but with all due respect , I am a grown man and I don't need you to come along and tell me to play well with others or remind me to color within the lines .

That is not your job . That is why there are MODERATORS .

Nuff said ?

One man's vigor is another's condescention, perhaps the confusion is mine, perhaps not. Telling everybody here they are going to hell because you think Hell translates to 'grave' is hardly impressive intellectual high ground to flagellate edsinger from. Actually, you're not far from the truth, the word hell roughly translates from Hebrew etymology to mean earth, which means the fundamentals of Christianity parallels pretty much every other major religon the world in it's simple concept of obtaining spiritual enlightenment in lieu of death. Odd you mention drugs though, I take it you didn't read my link lol.
You're a grown man, ok well, adopt the decorum that would warrant that assumption from others and you won't have to angrily capitalize the word MODERATORS and we can enjoy a less venemous discussion here.

reply to post by twitchy


Funny how you guys spot a thread title that is bold as brass , stop in to see what it is about , and once you find that you don't agree with the OP's presentation , you tell him to tone it down some ?

Read your link ? you linked nothing on this page .

If you find my thread imflamatory , why are you still here ?

You're not the thread police , so don't come trying to sell authority that you don't have .

Nobody gonna cash any hot checks for you here .

Originally posted by okbmd
Funny how you guys spot a thread title that is bold as brass , stop in to see what it is about , and once you find that you don't agree with the OP's presentation , you tell him to tone it down some ?

Read your link ? you linked nothing on this page .

If you find my thread imflamatory , why are you still here ?

You're not the thread police , so don't come trying to sell authority that you don't have .

Nobody gonna cash any hot checks for you here .

You will need a RATS subscription to read it, sorry. No I'm not the thread police, I'm just a member of the community who stopped in to read the latest anti-christianity drivel thread and made the mistake of assuming you were any different from the countless others who come here to trash and bash the beliefs of others based solely on their own largely ignorant sense of self superiority. I have no authority here, I do not claim to, but I do have a rapidly deteriorating opinion of your "You're all going to hell" mantra which amounts to little more than immflamatory drivel. You came here to start a fight, you got one, shall we continue to stroke your ego and argue vague esoteric concepts or are you just here to poke sticks at people?
Edit:
Bold as brass? lol
Yeah you're all that. Sorry, I guess I'm just out of my league here.
Good luck with this one edsinger, he's bold as brass.

okbmd, if you last a while on ATS, you will eventually gain enough points to read this thread.... www.abovetopsecret.com...
Perhaps by then you will have also learned a little more about the company you're in here on ATS, and able to communicate better.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by twitchy]

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
OK please show us these emminent sources.

www.garyhabermas.com...

I'm not going to derail this thread any further, but I suggest that you'd do a search around this here at ATS in order to come to your senses. Most, if not all your sources aren't valid in regard to what you suggest, and this page claims. Josephus is for example not valid, since his original work didn't include any mention of Jesjuah etc. and the list goes on. Though I believe Jesjuah ha Mesjiach bar Josuph of Nazareth, we lack sources outside the Gospel and the NT. It's just the way it is. Source criticism shows he hasn't been mentioned in single a valid text.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And since you obviously mean that Hades and Gehenna etc. is the same thing, can you please tell us where YOU are going when you die if you don't end up in Hell, and cite some scripual proof please.

A person who has accepted Christ goes straight to Heaven when they die.
2Cor 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens.

2Cor 5:6
Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

I am not going to go further with this, but I advise you'd read the context of these verses, and you'll see that your first quote is about the New Jerusalem, which will be built in orbit and descend upon finish, atleast 1000 years+ into the future. As for your other quotes, they make no sense, both in your quotes and seen in context. Show me proof that as much as a single person has departed from Earth to heaven (except the Koran's claim that Prophet Mohammed ("the blessed one"), after he died). As far as I know, only two people will ascend to the heavens after they've died, and they both come to life some time during 3.5 days after they died and came back to life.

But let's stay on topic in respect of this thread's OP. Search ATS for answers to these questions, and you'll see unrefutable proof that none of Shaul Paulus' quotes are valid. It is my sincere belief that Sjaul Paulus was a double agent working for the Sanhedrin and the Pharicees, working to stop the Chriastians from having influence on Israel's politics and ecclasiastical system.

[edit on 12/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by twitchy


In case you haven't noticed , this is not your neighborhood church .

Nowhere , did I see that I had to be a part of any mythical , archaic , esoteric sect or cult , as a prerequisite for joining .

Pretty much anything goes here , as long as you keep it between the ditches . True , there are rules and guidelines to follow if you want to remain here . Those rules and guidelines are enforced by the mods and as far as I can tell , they do a pretty good job .

So , if you have a problem with the way I present myself , maybe you should utilize the 'alert' function instead of flagrantly assuming that it is your role to be the internet police on manners and decorum .

Why is it that I can think of no branch of religion , other than christianity , that feels as though it has to proselytize all those that it comes into contact with ?

I've never known a jew , muslim , buddhist , satanist or anyone else that is as adamant about converting the world to their way of seeing things , as christians are .

I find that rather strange . If indeed , your little bad guy with horns existed , then it would seem to me that he would be doing a heck of a lot more in the conversion department .

And please don't retaliate with the tired proposition that he doesn't have to recruit those who are not christians .

You asked earlier 'who am I , and what do I believe ? "

I don't mind answering that .

Who am I ? = I am .

What do I believe ? = I am .

And yes , there is nothing that gives me more joy than spending time with my two-year-old grandson . When he smiles at me and his eyes light up and those cute little dimples show , there is no other place that I would rather be . I would lay down my life for that little knothead .

Does this cause me to feel a need to believe the jesus story ?

NO.

reply to post by okbmd


Woooow. That made my day.

This really is Hell.....

Originally posted by okbmdHere you are again , trying to prove the bible with the bible .

No, not at all. I did quote some verses to show that at least (2) have never died. Yes I used the Bible in that case, as there are not too many other sources. But if you want to be picky, I could quote the Book of Enoch and get the same thing and that is not part of the Bible. Would that make you feel better?

Originally posted by okbmdYour post proves nothing . The more you reply , the more hopeless you appear .

Hopeless? Not in the slightest, your anger and drivel shows you have no hope.

Originally posted by okbmdAnd still , you have refuted nothing I put forth in my OP .

Oh but I did, the fact that you do not understand the definition of Hell is not my problem. Quit thinking English and do some digging and get back with me on that.

Originally posted by okbmdIt is people like you that give christians a bad name . It is people like you , who are helplessly DRUGGED ON JESUS that make it so much easier for the powers-that-be to control and dominate the minds of millions .

Well I am drugged on Jesus I guess you could say. I have accepted the Grace freely given for me. If you call that drugged then so be it. Control of the minds? That is where you have a problem with your understanding. It is the mind that causes doubt, it is the heart and soul that brings peace.

Originally posted by okbmdGeeezzz , you're a real work of art .

Why thank you 

Originally posted by okbmdAnd by the way , I don't recall saying that 'christ' was a name . Just more dribble on your part in lieu of a legitimate argument .

I guess you are not reading all the threads? That was a comment for one of the other posts on what Christ means and were the word/name came from. How about Anointed one, That is a better English interpretation of Messiah, which in Greek is called Christ. Anyhow it wasn’t really directed at you.

Originally posted by okbmdedsinger tells me over and again that he has refuted my original post , and as far as I can tell , he has done nothing of the sort , but in his next post he tells me once again that he has .

That is because I have. You do not comprehend the definition of Hell. You purly attach the meaning of Sheol to it as was done in some translations. I have riddled holes in your reasoning and mainly used Tartarus to do so. Still, I added the Abyss and Lake of fire and yet you still drivel on this grave definition. I will humor you once more and say that if Hell means only Sheol, then you OP might be somewhat accurate. Since it doesn’t, you have been proven wrong.

Originally posted by okbmdedsinger brought drug usage into the discussion , so yes , I picked it up and ran with it .

Actually, you are correct on this one and I owe you an apology. I had you pegged for some teenage weed smoking chump that thought he ran across a definition for Hell and thought you would have some fun with it. I see that you are a Grandfather so I was wrong about the teen part, and maybe the weed.

Originally posted by okbmdI stand by my original post that we all are going to a place called 'hell' , for the simple fact that 'hell' is the GRAVE .

And once again you are WRONG. HELL DOES NOT EQUAL ONLY GRAVE.

So you will not believe me so I did a simple search, here are the 11 definitions of Hell via dictionary.com (not a biased site)

1. the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus.
2. any place or state of torment or misery: They made their father's life a hell on earth.
3. something that causes torment or misery: Having that cut stitched without anesthesia was hell.
4. the powers of evil.
5. the abode of the dead; Sheol or Hades.
6. extreme disorder or confusion; chaos: The children let both dogs into the house, and all hell broke loose.
7. heck1 def. 2.
8. a receptacle into which a tailor throws scraps.
9. Also called hellbox. Printing. a box into which a printer throws discarded type.
10. the utterance of “hell” in swearing or for emphasis.
11. the hell, Informal.
a. (used as an intensifier to express surprise, anger, impatience, etc.): Why the hell can't the trains run on time?
b.
(used sarcastically or ironically to express the opposite of what is being stated): Are you listening to me? The hell you are!

*** This is for all the folks following this thread. As can be seen the two definitions being talked about here are probably, 1 & 5 (the others are moot in this case). That being said, the OP says that only #5 is the real meaning. I argue that #1 and #5 are related and that #1 is certainly not the same as #5. #1 is a place of punishment. What is the punishment of #5? Your dead and worm food and that is that. #1 however is far different with much more dramatic consequences. But there are many more items and in depth studies about this subject, if one wants to look. I will not be going to #1, I may one day find myself in #5.

Originally posted by okbmdContrary to what you or edsinger may think or continue to imply , I HAVE did my research , otherwise I never would have had the audacity to make such a bold statement .

Could have fooled me, I did it in about 30 seconds and showed that HELL does not equal only the Grave. Notice the Sheol and Hades definition for #5. That is quick and dirty, but since the New testament was written in Greek,

Ha•des
1. Classical Mythology.
a. the underworld inhabited by departed souls.
b. the god ruling the underworld; Pluto.
2. (in the Revised Version of the New Testament) the abode or state of the dead.
3. (often lowercase ) hell.

Inhabited by departed souls, how can something dead (buried, worm food etc) inhabit anything? It is the state of the dead in #2 here, (Sheol). So the OP just conveniently forgets to even address #1.

Originally posted by okbmdIf you find my presentation offensive then I apologize for that . However , I do not apologize for the vigor and determination you will find in most of my arguments .

Offensive? Well the way you came out firing with the title, then had a quick “Don’t stone me yet” and then just launch into a one sided rant. Yeah, it was offensive. Maybe it would not have been so if you would have presented the FULL facts.

Originally posted by okbmdBelieve me when I say that I have had it up to here with people who go around telling others that they are goimg to HELL because they don't believe the jesus story .

Well, the wages of sin is death. So in that regard maybe so. But I have eternal life so I don’t have to worry about it really. People that say that to you would be better and more accurate in saying that not believing in Jeshua, will make ones eternity a mighty awful place and state to be in. The total absence of God.

Originally posted by okbmdThe people who condemn others to this 'HELL' are under the assumption that hell equates with a lake of fire that burns eternally . IT DOES NOT .

And you have yet to prove this. You only state your interpretation of the word Hell and I have more than shown that it is biased.

Originally posted by okbmdThat has NOT been refuted by edsinger .

I differ, I have been more than forthcoming and posted plenty to show my point. You have yet to even come up with an answer to the Tartarus problem with your theory, let alone the abyss.

Originally posted by okbmdHe may be a respected member around 'these parts' . That does NOT automatically make him RIGHT simply because he can quote the bible .

Ah, now we are getting somewhere (actually I am a very disliked member around here but that is another story), I quoted the Bible on something else (no death for two people). Refuting the OP, I did not. You have shown your colors, you HATE anything to do with the Bible. And therefore the goal of your OP has been competed.

Originally posted by okbmdMaybe you should go back yourself and read thru all of my posts , and then tell me that I haven't done my research before you imply such a thing .

Most of your posts are the same, could you refer me to the one of which you speak in this particular case?

Originally posted by okbmdThis thread was posted for debate , and debate it has been .

Well not really a debate. A debate is when two sides argue a point. You have already lost it if it was a debate.

Originally posted by okbmdThe fact is , that 'hell is the grave' has NOT been refuted .

Oh but it has, you just can not see it.

reply to post by okbmd


I had intended not to post here again, but as a dog returns to it's vomit, here comes yet another post.

My intention of leaving was due to the topic leaving that of the OP. I know almost every thread does, but that's when the threads die and become a battleground of faith-bashing and idle chatter. I want no part of such threads and hope that is not what this one has become.

I never said Christians are the only ones who do good things, just that the world would be a worse place without them. There are many secular/atheist people that have contributed to the world as well. I readily acknowledge that. The Christian faith should, however, be setting the example for such good deeds. Christ himself told his disciples that people would know that they were his followers not by their miracles and wisdom but by their love.

In regards to the OP, I believe that I myself as well as others have refuted your claim that we all go to Hell quite adequately. You simply disagree with the deductions we have made based on our observations of the language and how it was used.

To restate, in summary, I believe the text is stating without need of "interpretation" that we all go to Sheol/Hades, but we do not all go to Hell/Gehenna/Lake of Fire. I think study into those words specifically shows this to be the truth of the matter. You disagree.

[edit] Spelling and grammar corrections, that is all.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Mykahel]