Some Questions for Christians (and others)

Originally posted by jmdewey60
.
The only way to explain our consciousness to to say that God somehow has a part in making what we perceive to exist.
So, Jesus on the cross could only have existed by God making it happen. Even the experience that Jesus was having, including the suffering, was something God would have been directly involved with. Like the sparrow that falls, God knows because that sparrow could not have even been alive, or go through the death process without the hand of God.
So God did not have to become something, or somehow change something about Himself, to suffer with Jesus, because there was no way that He could not have.

So the position you are now taking is not so much

"Jesus is the Father in the flesh"-

but more

"Everybody is the Father in the flesh".

I'm not sure that Arius would recognise his teaching in this version either.

reply to post by DISRAELI

No.
I'm refuting what you are claiming to be heresy that you seem to be associating with my thoughts.
Specifically with modelism, as in somehow God the Father becoming the Son. I am saying that sort of thing was not necessary for God to do.
I believe that the New Testament was written to be understood by its target audience using terms that would have been familiar to them, but may be harder for us now days, being far removed from that culture, to easily interpret.
Jesus was called Emanuel, God with us, in order to fall in line with the interpretation of the day. God was with us, through the Word, which is the principle of the existence of the universe, the power of God to use what seems to us to be mere symbolism, like letters and numbers and words.
It starts out by introducing this thing, the word, as creator and ends with the word Jesus being a name that saves.
Something so simple as God speaking a word brought everything into existence, and we saying God's son's name brings us life. The God Principle of making things so has not left us but has been renewed by giving us a new sign in this name, that Jesus, the man affirmed and energized through his life and death.


[edit on 3-5-2010 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
No.
I'm refuting what you are claiming to be heresy that you seem to be associating with my thoughts.

No.I didn't really think that particular heresy was part of your belief.
I just thought that you had slipped into an ill-chosen expression as a side-effect of defending a quibble.

To wit; I had queried "Jesus is the Father in the flesh" as an expression of trinitarian belief.
You decided to defend the phrase, although it doesn't really belong to Arian teaching any more than it belongs to trinitarian teaching.
You then defended it in terms which could be applied to everyone, thus taking the question away from the specific application to Jesus.
There's probably a moral there somewhere, about selecting the right points to argue about.



[edit on 3-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


I would see as the quibble, you suggesting to Illuminator to adjust his phraseology.
I listen to Dr. Deagle on Genesis Broadcasting, and every day, he finds some way to insert this phrase, Jesus is the Father in the flesh.
I don't see it as supporting, or not supporting a side of a theological dispute. It is his way of affirming his belief in Jesus, so when I see someone else using the same expression, I do not look into as if to find some sort of flaw.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60

I listen to Dr. Deagle on Genesis Broadcasting, and every day, he finds some way to insert this phrase, Jesus is the Father in the flesh.

Interesting information, thank you.

I must admit that I don't know Genesis Broadcasting. I'm not a listener to Christian radio, so I don't know their background. I made my mild suggestion to Illuminator based on the standard teachings of the early Fathers. As I said at the time, I knew what he meant, and essentially agreed with him.

PS I've just done a little googling, and my first impression is that Dr Deagle's qualification, though he broadcasts on theological matters, is in medicine. But there may be other qualifications which haven't popped up.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

the father in flesh..hmmm

reading this makes me ponder on something. (why is there so much suffering in the world?) God knows suffering in the world. he came into the world he created and sufferd greatly for us

Originally posted by the illuminator
God knows suffering in the world. he came into the world he created and sufferd greatly for us

Now that is something which hopefully we can all agree on.
Perhaps we should really be focussing on the wonder of that point, and the way we should be responding to it.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

1. question: "Who was minding the Universe while GOD was a human being?"

Answer: Jesus said (while he was a human being on earth) "You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified...." SO- obviously, GOD, the father IN HEAVEN was the one who minded the Universe while Jesus was on eart. Read. Matt 6:9-13

2 Question:If Jesus is his own separate person, did he excist with GOD before he was born?

Answer: (In prayer Jesus said): "Father, glorifythou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had thee before the world was made." Read: John 17:5. Also see John 8:23

3 Question:If Jesus is his own separete person, then are you not worshipping two God's?

Answer: When Jesus got tempted by Satan to worship him (Satan) he answered:"Go away, Satan!For it is written, It is the Lord, your God you must worship and it is to him alone you must render sacret service."
(Jesus was not obviously saying that he himself was to be worshipped.)

4 Question:If Mary is the mother of God, does that make her Goddess?

Answer: The angel who informed her of the coming miraculous birth did not say that her son would be GOD. He said: " You are to conceive and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called SON of the MOST HIGH.... The child will be holy and will be called SON of God. Luke 1:31-35

Hope this helped a bit to clarify....?

reply to post by nitah


Hi there, Nitah, and welcome.

You've brought us back to the OP, which everybody's been forgetting. The collected anti-trinitarians of BTS have been turning it into an "all the trinitarians are wrong" thread, and it will probably be turned back in that direction fairly soon



[edit on 3-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by nitah

3 Question:If Jesus is his own separete person, then are you not worshipping two God's?

Answer: When Jesus got tempted by Satan to worship him (Satan) he answered:"Go away, Satan!For it is written, It is the Lord, your God you must worship and it is to him alone you must render sacret service."
(Jesus was not obviously saying that he himself was to be worshipped.)

You quoted Jesus telling Satan what has already been written.

Who was the devil tempting Jesus himself or God?

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
This would make sense that Jesus is God.

4 Question:If Mary is the mother of God, does that make her Goddess?

Answer: The angel who informed her of the coming miraculous birth did not say that her son would be GOD. He said: " You are to conceive and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called SON of the MOST HIGH.... The child will be holy and will be called SON of God. Luke 1:31-35

You forgot to mention what was foretold

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
This would indicate that Jesus was Emmanuel who is God who is with us.Since Mary was his mother I guess it would be appropriate to call her Mother of God or theotokos Confirmed at the council of Ephesus in 431.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by the illuminator
why is there so much suffering in the world?

Because of sin.

Here's another set of verses to think about: (verse 7 is very interesting)
Mark 2:1-12
1 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.
2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

[edit on 5/5/2010 by texastig]