homosexuality is not a choice. we know that

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Sorry I was unclear.

My friend is in his very late forties.

I hadn't even wondered about sexual abuse.

I only meant to make the point that I shouldn't have wondered at all in this situation.

Please could you explain to me then Celibacy?

Is that a choice or Nature Nuture?

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Please could you explain to me then Celibacy?

Is that a choice or Nature Nuture?


It's a shame.

This thread needs to be closed. As someone aleady pointed out, why make a thread when one already exists??

reply to post by joyride0187


Thanks.

I only stopped here because the title frightened me less than the other.

I'm out.

Originally posted by 23refugee
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

Please could you explain to me then Celibacy?

Is that a choice or Nature Nuture?


It's a shame.

To whom?

The Celibate or those who desire them still?

Surely if you are truly celibate, and can transend any reactive or animilistic behaviour you could be said to have a very strong, willpower, control, and have more choice in your life and relationships?

That being that,

you are distracting from the question I posed which showed the single negative in the Title, which is masquerading as a double negative, a stated known fact based on pointing to something besides the facts, very simple debating skills used to propose a weak point, or one with only an emotional and no rational reality.

Hitler said "We all Know Jews are...."

Or Netanyahu "We all Know all palestinains are....."

I say again.

Explain Celibacy if it just not a choice, are they differant from homesexuals?

The premise posits that then you can not be Homosexual and Celibate!

A known Falsehood!

EVERYTHING humans do besides automatic bodily systems such as heart beating, everything we say & do in relation to any other living being is a choice.

If someone is still repressing guilt for the choice they have made, not saying that guilt is justified, guilt usually is not, but please dont use your "transference" of that guilt onto all others in the world, due to lack of conscious control, willpower or acceptance of there true selves.

Thread Debunked

To add I am not saying that homosexuality is wrong, bad, evil etc...but also this is a externalisation of a persons inner emotional landscape, and nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

Being born with an arm missing is not a choice (well not in this life anyhow!), being born with brown eyes is not a choice, who and what you decide to actually interact with in reality is a choice, as soon as it leaves your internal fantasies and desires and becomes action.

Otherwise the same could be said of rapists. It IS KNOWN (from actual facts and stats) that a Rape fantasy is the most prominent amongst women in the West.

Does this mean the rapists can say it is not a choice but they way they were born?

Of course not it is their, and ours every time we act in the world in whatever way, to choose to do that.

The same as it is plainly a choice to get you clothes of with another man and have sexual interactions.

Does the genes, and parenting of such a person appear at that time and help you undress to, or kiss another man?

Preposterous.

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 31-3-2010 by MischeviousElf]

"Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Concludes Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project

Francis S. Collins, one of the world's leading scientists who works at the cutting edge of DNA research, concluded that "there is an inescapable component of heritability to many human behavioral traits." However, he adds, "for virtually none of them, is heredity ever close to predictive."

As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.

Just thought you should know...

reply to post by MischeviousElf


The difference between choosing to "be" and choosing to "do" are polar opposites, not even on the same polar landscape.

I do not think that people here are necessarily telling us their "emotional landscape" - just merely communicating their understanding (or missunderstanding) of a certain topic.

If you are Gay, you can CHOOSE to accept it, or you can CHOOSE to deny it - which is painful. If i imagine what it would be like to have to repress my feelings for girls, id be destroyed. It would almost be psyche breaking.

deciding (Choosing?) to act on sexual preference is not choice, it is a natural inclination and there is very little thought involved.

for example, i choose to date one woman or another (when i was single) but i cannot choose if my body desires her in an intimate way. Hormones and pheramones play a part in that, but really, in the case of sexual interest and acting it out, it is a natural mechanical reaction to stimuli.

Very little choice involved whatsoever.

the same as, you cannot choose, whom you love. You just love them/it.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Returned to clarify

I should have written "It's a shame?"

I was referencing the issue of forced celibacy due to the laws and mores of a society.

Like that forced on many gays.

The gays that are the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by mytquin
"Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Concludes Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project

Francis S. Collins, one of the world's leading scientists who works at the cutting edge of DNA research, concluded that "there is an inescapable component of heritability to many human behavioral traits." However, he adds, "for virtually none of them, is heredity ever close to predictive."

As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.

Just thought you should know...

An interesting hypothesis, though not at all substantiated with any evidence that a non-specified-genetic-scientist could understand.

His opinion does not make it fact.

Environment is inefectual when it comes to sexuality. If that were true, then there would be no gay people coming from a straight couple, or in a predominantly gay family, there would be a huge percentage og homosexuality being "force fed" into their children.

Unfortunately, environmental does not necessarily mean family or even country, sometimes it can come down to ecosystem. Much like frogs, when there is a large ammount of females to males, they become hermaphordidic - though im not sure if its the other way around, biological sciences are not my forte.

Most of the males on my mom's side are homosexual. It comes from her mother's side of the family.

I did do the research and know how far the homosexuality spreads. Quite interesting really.

Me and my two brothers>
My mother's brother>
Their uncle

And it goes on. So interesting. :3

reply to post by adifferentbreed



i was just annoyed by the constant hate topics. sorry to annoy youuu

but i only put down scientific info on here...not my 'beliefs' per-say

it was my first and last post on the subject

as a sleep tech i'm doing research dealing with the brain and i'll be putting a lot of my thoughts and findings on this site... so look for me sooooon


[edit on 1-4-2010 by tektek2012]

reply to post by MischeviousElf


I can't believe you would compare homosexuality with rapists.

This just shows me how utterly clueless and screwed up some people are.

Rapists have a need to feel power over their victim, and they feed on the helplessness and fear of the victim.

I don't think people can help who they fall in love with. You fall in love with someones soul...not what they look like or what body they are in. If a male is in love with a male it's most likely because they are attracted to the person/soul.

Same goes for women. And often enough woman who were married to a man will leave their partner for a woman...because they are attracted to the soul or spirit of another woman and it is often a more intense feeling of love or understanding that they do not feel with their husband.

It doesn't matter what causes homosexuality. We should be tolerant of others no matter what their lifestyle choices are. As long as they are good people, who cares?

The only thing that can be fixed about being gay is that you can pretend sfor societies sake.

Alot of males just pretend to fit in.

Thats as far as you can go with turning someone straight, lol.

Originally posted by jinx880101
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

I can't believe you would compare homosexuality with rapists.

I NEVER

Please re read my post, either apoligise for accusing me to an ignorant member of the human race, or maybe read, and not emotionally react before you press "Reply" next time.

In fact that was the whole point of what I was saying, dont confuse lack of control of your mind, or desires, or animalistic behaviour for some lofty pre ordained destiny, or as you posit it its all Love. Well im afraid you usually (not always, but certainly in the gay community as the high sexual partners rates, and lack of "Dating" compared to hetrosexual, not judging just facts)

It is a choice.

Like your choice to reply without reading my post first.

Thank you.

Elf

homosexualy is a choice. at the same time, its not a choice.

homosexuality is the persons on decision.

reply to post by MischeviousElf

Otherwise the same could be said of rapists. It IS KNOWN (from actual facts and stats) that a Rape fantasy is the most prominent amongst women in the West. Does this mean the rapists can say it is not a choice but they way they were born?

Maybe you should re-phrase your sentences.... you might be giving people the wrong impression if that's not the way you meant it.

If it is not the way you meant it- then I do apologize. But the above sure comes across as though you are comparing homosexuality with the mind of a rapist.

Maybe you need to re read your post.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


"To whom?

The Celibate or those who desire them still? "

Why should anyone that desires civil discourse rail against a diatribe that's begun with an insult as thinly vieled as that?

Originally posted by 23refugee
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

"To whom?

The Celibate or those who desire them still? "

Why should anyone that desires civil discourse rail against a diatribe that's begun with an insult as thinly vieled as that?

Are you serious?

Or just being defensive?

It was just a question, and posted to show the insubstantial basis for the OP statement.

How is that and Insult? To whom again the celibate or not?

Makes no sense you have totally lost me.

However I did mention it as for a 3 yr period in my life I chose Celibacy to focus on myself, achieve some goals as I am deep and intense with love relationships, and also to help in meditation practises, having control over my emotions, rather than vice versa... so I speak from both sides of being Celibate and not.

I am not at the moment, but neither do I choose wrong partners anymore and Lust has very little bearing on whether I have a relationship, its deeper for me now, the person not just body is paramount, after doing that in my life, sorts the wheat from the chaff as such, much better choices in life.

Again I am sorry if you saw that as an insult, I don’t see how, but it was just meant to convey using analogy the weakness of the OPs premise, so he could see that himself, and get that guilt out of the cupboard never mind the queen in him.

reply to post by jinx880101


Rephrasing my sentences means nothing, as sentences build Paragraphs.

From building these we get the feel or meaning of what is being said.

I am sorry if you can’t see that I was using an analogy, and all you have done is like the MSM taken one part and quoted it out of context entirely.

Anyhow if any Gay people or their friends or family etc were upset, please look at the context and realise I am sticking up for those who have the honesty to be totally true about their lives. Just questioning the OP's as explained excuse of it being Nature 100% which is not true, as it is a choice like anything else in life.

I have had both Gay and Bi friends in life. Been on "dates" with them with my girlfriend, when they were nervous and wanted some friends about, and double date as such. Had one or two over the years phoning me up early hours of the morning and breaking their heart to me on the phone when a relationship ended etc..

Shared a flat for a few months with a Bi friend, him and his friends male and female would come out clubbing with us in the first legal and illegal Raves in the UK and clubs, and about one in four of our Fridays or Saturdays clubbing, we would all go to the local gay club (Fantastic Dance Music!!) as it was only fair. Though me and straight friends went like ladies to the toilets together lol!! scared...but gave the resident weekly clubbers at the gay club much to laugh and tease us about.

Please please understand you are trying to preach to the converted and non judgemental. I am just being brutally honest about the deep psychological issues that ive seen those friends go through when they first Came out, and the angle of the OP and some posts mirror that. Most still had guilt and were "Externalising" and "transferring" blame onto Genes, upbringing etc....

However that is it, there is nothing to be guilty about, or nothing to blame, that is just unresolved childhood issues, and no one who is Gay or coming out can really embrace their lifestyle, and be happy in life or there sexuality until this deep part of acceptance, taking responsibility comes out.

This is the same for all such issues, blaming parents if aggressive and beaten, etc etc etc, all the same. It’s all ultimately a choice.

When exploring my identity when young, Like all males (I admit it ) I explored once or twice the confusion of puberty etc, though never actually had full homosexual sex.

It did nothing for me I did not get aroused, or even can understand looking at a man and being "Attracted" or having google eyes for them. But then I understand a Gay person does not see women as I do as well, big deal I like Pasta my best friend Curry.

I feel at a really good place in my life sexually. I am not afraid to show or get in touch with "Feminine" qualities all males carry, and females vice versa, and am pretty close to a yin/yang in that regard. I don’t need to be ostentatious, or aggressive to "prove" my manhood, it is deeper than that and brash shows of it usually show an insecurity and overcompensation in this area. I have extremely high testosterone levels, nearly needing medication for it when younger, massively sexual when I CHOOSE to play and gently dominant, but I am also happy to clean, cook or care for people/babies... Celibacy for a short while can be very liberating, and also provide huge stillness and will power within.

Please realise I am just being honest about the situation, and my ultimate aim was to try and provoke a bit of an reaction to make the OP and anyone advocating his stance, move through this barrier to happiness in their life and sexuality.

"Know Yourself" is so true in all areas of life especially sexual orientation.

Phew Meow lol all across this thread, which brings back some memories of friends lol.

Walking quietly and gently from this thread.

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


I concede that my bon mot could easily be viewed as inappropiate.

Of course, voluntary celibacy can be as admirable as enforced celibacy can be tragic.

I'm confident that my comprehension is on a par with you concision.

My reaction was to a post sprinkled with
" but please dont use your "transference" of that guilt onto all others in the world, due to lack of conscious control, willpower or acceptance of there true selves. " and "The same as it is plainly a choice to get you clothes of with another man and have sexual interactions. Does the genes, and parenting of such a person appear at that time and help you undress to, or kiss another man? "

I was sure I detected that " as long as they don't touch me" brand of open-mindedness.

I'll apologize for being defensive, if otherwise.