4 electrons

reply to post by theability

I don't really understand your question. That pdf you linked is describing exactly how a fuel cell works. Here is the chemistry of a fuel cell:

Anode reaction: 2H2 => 4H(+) + 4e-
Cathode reaction: O2 + 4H(+) + 4e- => 2H2O
Therefore:
Whole reaction: 2H2 + O2 => 2H2O

The 4 electrons come from the splitting of the hydrogen gas fuel (i.e., the 4 electrons are part of the chemistry -- not "added"). The hydrogen fuel (2 molecules of hydrogen gas, which is H2 -- i.e, 2H2) is split by a catalyst, resulting in 4 hydrogen ions AND the 4 electrons.

THAT'S where the 4 electrons are coming from -- they are not being "added for outside the reaction"...they are part of the reaction.

I'm not sure what the issue is, but if you were wondering where the 4 electrons came from, there is your answer.



Here is an excerpt from this website explaining how fuel cells work:

The fuel cell works by injecting molecular hydrogen (H2) molecules into the anode. The hydrogen molecules react with the catalyst. The catalyst is usually a thin coat of powdered platinum on carbon paper. This breaks up the hydrogen into a proton and an electron. The proton goes across the electrolyte, (remember, it only accepts protons) while the electron is fed through the circuit and goes to work, whether it be powering your oven or providing horsepower to your new mustang.

Upon finishing their job, the electrons return to the cell through the cathode. There, the catalyst assists the oxygen molecules, the hydrogen protons and the hydrogen electrons in making water. The chemical reactions are the following:

Anode:
2H2 => 4H(+) + 4e-

Cathode:
O2 + 4H(+) + 4e- => 2H2O

The whole reaction ends up looking like this:
2H2 + O2 => 2H2O

[edit on 4/1/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]

I don't think the operation of the catalyst is well known.
Removing electrons from Hydrogen is no small task.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I think we miscomunuicated here, my point was the most important thing to mission success was the theory of 4 electrons.

that was the point...

Originally posted by theability
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I think we miscomunuicated here, my point was the most important thing to mission success was the theory of 4 electrons.

that was the point...

The 4 electrons in the fuel cell equation, very important an interesting to
focus on these items.
Now we have the catalysts and the idea of the transfer through the
system and cell.
Talking to some people with various electron ideas I heard one of
the stranger ideas about the electron.
I don't have the exact distance but the electron travels a very short
distance.
A couple more considerations for those 4 electrons.
Like what are they doing.

reply to post by TeslaandLyne

A couple more considerations for those 4 electrons.
Like what are they doing.

This is a pretty important system Apollo 13 voilated the 4 electron theory and it killed the ship.

So much to learn about clean energy sources.

Originally posted by theability
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I think we miscomunuicated here, my point was the most important thing to mission success was the theory of 4 electrons.

that was the point...

OK -- I think I see your point now...

...However, MANY of the laws of physics and chemistry were important to the success of the Apollo missions, not just the chemistry involved when hydrogen ions are created, freeing up electrons.

I mean, it was also pretty important that when the liquid hydrogen fuel of the Saturn V rocket engines oxidized, it did so with a "bang". Without the chemical ability for hydrogen in the liquid-fuel rocket engines to burn, the rocket would not have worked the way it did. That was a pretty important chemical reaction, also.

I suppose I'm asking why are you keying on the chemistry of a fuel-cell as being so important? Sure -- it was important to the mission to have a fuel cell, but there were many, many other equally important things.

[edit on 4/2/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]

Originally posted by theability
reply to post by TeslaandLyne

 

A couple more considerations for those 4 electrons.
Like what are they doing.

This is a pretty important system Apollo 13 voilated the 4 electron theory and it killed the ship.

So much to learn about clean energy sources.

Well that might touch on many things.
The science of equipment failure or what can go wrong.
The science of do we know all that is going on in the fuel cell.
And perhaps as few more.

The Russians had a torpedo chemical reaction powered failure
that sunk a submarine. An explosion.
Here a sub is down and the peroxide powered reaction is being
reviewed by the experts.

I do not know what happens in fuel cell failures.
I have investigated failures in electronics and its mostly a connection.

If you want some Space Program conspiracy theories you can
start with the first three that died on the ground during a test.
Sort of a message that your life is in the hands of the controllers
say so at any time. Was Apollo 13 another message.
Yeah these theories are silly.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I am keying in on the fuel cell being creating negative energy cleanly.

In modern day electron generation processes, polute the earth, and are extremely 'wasteful'.

And yes, your right there was many other systems that had high regard, yet still no power and they were good as artifacts!

reply to post by theability


Absolutely. Fuel cells will be an important part of a clean-energy future. However, for hydrogen-fueled fuel cells, a better and more efficient method for producing hydrogen will be necessary before a fuel cell can be considered truly "clean".

Right now, the energy required to make the hydrogen to operate the fuel cell actually creates more greenhouse gasses than the use of the fuel cell eliminates.

I'm sure that someday there will be a clean and efficient method for producing hydrogen. However, we just don't have large-scale clean hydrogen production plants yet. The overall impact of using hydrogen-fueled fuel cells won't truly be "clean" until then.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


The agreement continues.

Though I was still referencing fuel cell for spaceflight use.


I wonder how the private sector is solving this problem in there designs?