Was Jesus the Morning Star?

Heya ATSers, I have come across a rather interesting set of videos that merits some talk.

The concept: There are two Gods in the old testiment..the first God is the God from the kingdom of God...the creator of all things and his name is simply God.
After that, there is a new person introduced named Lord God...the distinction is pretty significant and the Lord God seems to be a more personal and individual person that lives in heaven (Heaven , if you remember your scripture, is a physical place that was created at the same time as earth...Gen 1:1)

OK, so, here are the videos by a former christian as he puts forth his theory. If you refuse to watch it, then please dont comment because ATS is about progressing ideas..be it to a understanding of truth or straight into the bin, not dismissing content just for the sake of dismissal.







he needed a shirt change I guess



ok, and for people that truely dont want to watch the video and will go nuts, here are just a very few points the videos bring up:
1) Who did Cain marry?
2) Why did the lord need to mark Cain?
(And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.) Cain, Adam and Eve are the only ones on earth at this point...who would be killing Cain if he was being cast out.
and incidently, why did the Lord want to protect a murderer soo much to take vengence on anyone whom slayed him 7 fold anyhow...(if anything, that shows what the Lord thinks about capital punishment)


ok, clearly the guy isn't a fan of christianity, but I think he puts forward some very interesting arguments that do need clarification. I know that the church takes a ton of liberties with interpretations in things that make little sense, but he appears to point out that the answers to these questions aren't a mystery if you simply read the words without trying to reinterpret.

I encourage everyone to remain respectful and detatch yourself from a pre-programmed responses...talk about it from a non emotional viewpoint of theological merit verses from a kneejerk response from historical teachings.

Thanks, dont forget to flag the thread.


[edit on 21-3-2010 by SaturnFX]

Sounds intresting, cant wait to get home so I can have a look at the videos.

Just hope it isnt a bout for Christianity bashing. I really hate it when they just bash on about there particualr belief.

Peace

I will watch the videos a little latter when I have more time...

But there is a interesting verse in the Bible that talks about God (El the most high) giving Yahweh (Lord) his inheritance, which turns out to be Israel (the 12 tribes of Jacob) more or less.

Looking back on the history of 'El' in other cultures (Canaan) we see a higher power they called 'El' and this higher power had 70 (sometimes it says 72) sons.

Throughout history myths and legends talk about a son of god that tries to over take gods place.

My theory in short...Yahweh (Lord) is not God the most high, the perfect unseen one.

I dont believe that Jesus taught of the same God image that the OT talks of the majority of the time. The closest the OT comes to talking about the image of God that Jesus talked of is when David and Solomon talk about wisdom and refer to this wisdom as a 'she'. There is even a verse that says in the OT...Keep Gods commandments and keep the laws of your mother. I dont think its talking about our Earthly mothers but instead, its talking about wisdom as a mother....the Holy Spirit brings this wisdom to the true seeker.

Originally posted by tempest501
Sounds intresting, cant wait to get home so I can have a look at the videos.

Just hope it isnt a bout for Christianity bashing. I really hate it when they just bash on about there particualr belief.

Peace

Not that I seen. Its a interpretation of the bible that actually opens your eyes considerably when its pointed out...makes for a very interesting dilemma that could be profound.

This guy tends to believe (based on other videos he made) that the bible is a story of alien interventionism overall and that there was a bit of a feud going on here on earth...but this is simply setting up the understandings to begin with.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


I find it interesting that God created the heaven and earth...the Lord dwells in Heaven.
There is a distinction also in the bible between the Kingdom of God where God is, and the Kingdom of heaven where the lord resides.

Lord...back in the hebrew days, meant the owner of the land, or the Landlord...Lord god could be considered the land god..and it was Lucifer that was cast down...the sun, the light, the sun god so to speak that dwelled in the creation.

Also, you see a detatchment of God in his reference and a direct personal enactment when they discuss the Lord's works...Also, it appears whenever the Lord tried something, it typically failed...whereas God's words seems to always hold true, creating a very interesting set of confusing supposed contradictions if your assuming its the same person when God is referenced, or when the Lord is referenced...but when seperated...it suddenly all makes sense.
The Lord appears to be trying to corrupt the creation of God

Interesting stuff...I might flip through the bible once again and look for more clashes between God and The LORD.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The best way I found to do this was using the site of 'blueletterbible'....It gives a Hebrew translation that shows just where Yahweh is used and where El is used.

I found this to be very important.

There are little tap buttons on the left of any verse you search on that site...click on the 'c' tab and it pulls up the Hebrew words along with a English translation next to it. Very interesting to see Yahweh and El being used in the Hebrew.

For me I also had to learn more then just Yahweh and El. Elohim and Eloah (unsure if that spelling is correct) are important here also.

Ahh, and edit to add something your post made me think of.

Ever heard of Earth being the vineyard. God being the owner of the vineyard. Something lower then God being given the mastership over the vineyard. The master over time decides to claim the vineyard as his own, not giving the harvest back to God, the true owner. God sends many servants to reap the harvest for Thee, but they all get killed by the master. God then sends his son to reap the harvest for Thee, surely the son wont be killed. The master then kills his son.

Interesting?


[edit on 21-3-2010 by LeoVirgo]

The beings that came to this planet created us in their image and likeness. They were able to ascend and descend the heavens in their chariots, clouds and pillars. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the "star" was an actual ship in orbit.

Think of the verses in the bible that talk about the "mount". The gods told Moses to make a perimeter around the mount and that anyone that came near the mount, whether it be man or animal, shall surely be killed.

Firstly, what is a "mount"? Dictionaries say that a "mount" is a means of conveyance. So, to make a perimeter around a means of conveyance due to possible radiation issues would be logical. For a god to just kill off animals and humans for coming near wouldn't make sense, but if there were radiation issues, then yes animals and humans would likely be killed.

Other bibles have translated "mount" into "mountain" but how do you make a perimeter around a mountain? Where does a mountain end and begin to make a perimeter around it? Why would the gods kill off humans and animals for coming near the mountain? There would already be animals on the mountain, so I guess they would be instantly killed from god's wrath?

How about Acts 10:11

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

Then in Acts 10:16

This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

What "vessel" could possibly have descended from the sky thousands of years ago and ascended back into the sky? Obviously by the verse it landed very gently like we land our helicopters.

Zechariah 5:1

Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. 2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

A flying roll? Some physical object was flying in the air thousands of years ago.

Isaiah 60:8

Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows

Exactly. Who were those intelligent beings that were flying like clouds and doves, thousands of years ago?

And for the OP, Matthew 2:9

When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, til it came and stood over where the young child was.

So a "star" or some ship with lights flew across the sky from the east until it hovered over the young child.

It doesn't get much more clearer than this. There were physical objects flying around our skies thousands of years ago by intelligent beings that created us in their image and likeness.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The best way I found to do this was using the site of 'blueletterbible'....It gives a Hebrew translation that shows just where Yahweh is used and where El is used.

I found this to be very important.

There are little tap buttons on the left of any verse you search on that site...click on the 'c' tab and it pulls up the Hebrew words along with a English translation next to it. Very interesting to see Yahweh and El being used in the Hebrew.

For me I also had to learn more then just Yahweh and El. Elohim and Eloah (unsure if that spelling is correct) are important here also.

Ahh, and edit to add something your post made me think of.

Ever heard of Earth being the vineyard. God being the owner of the vineyard. Something lower then God being given the mastership over the vineyard. The master over time decides to claim the vineyard as his own, not giving the harvest back to God, the true owner. God sends many servants to reap the harvest for Thee, but they all get killed by the master. God then sends his son to reap the harvest for Thee, surely the son wont be killed. The master then kills his son.

Interesting?


[edit on 21-3-2010 by LeoVirgo]

I am not a christian, I am agnostic, but I find the bible, especially the old testiment a fascinating book of misinterpreted and confused history..like bringing a caveman into a radio shack and see how he tries to explain it all.
breaking the code is a joy and anyone whom dismisses the bible as nonsense is being intellectually dishonest or simply lazy.

I do dismiss all of the biblical speakers giving opinions however...like Moses spouting his ideas of divorce, many of his so called dreams, rules of what is and isn't an abomination etc...his moment in the sun came on the mount, I reckon the rest he simply made up anything that followed (there is no reason to think otherwise). This is common.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Tsarion...is that you? 0o

kidding, but love that guys stuff...extremely compelling stuff. Some a bit edging on quacky, but tons of really firm understandings and mind blowing connections.

If you haven't heard of him, I highly recommend checking into him.
His Forum

reply to post by SaturnFX


I've gotten my information from researching religion, reading books, and from informative websites like The Bible UFO Connection.

A few interpretations on the above site could be better, but for the most part, I am in agreement with them.

What it boils down to is one's interpretation of the bible. You can walk into a Barnes and Noble book store to the religion section and see so many different types of bibles. And with each, their own interpretation. You can look up the same verse in every one of those bibles and see it interpreted differently in each bible.

Personally, I look at the bible from a scientific point of view and don't believe there's any chance of an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, omnipotent being that has just "always been there". If "god" created us, then what created him? The excuse that "he always has been and always will be" doesn't work for me. I don't believe in blind faith.

Saturn, I'm agnostic as well, if you couldn't tell.

Seems I've read a bit about the numbers bieng symbolic(72 sons, 7 fold punishment) and have a set of meanings in Quabalah and Tora, most other texts are translations and transliterations of these original texts. The Morning Star is a position like a general, and Jesus took over the Morning Star position after he earned it.
The vineyard parable always gives me assurance in this belief. Even though in our 3-d lives, once he kills the Owner's Son he gets the vineyard. Good thing they're past that. Once the sacrafice was made from the Son for the vinyard, he was qualified to take position as Morning Star. Earned his stripes so to speak.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by eazyriderl_l]

Originally posted by SaturnFX

ok, and for people that truely dont want to watch the video and will go nuts, here are just a very few points the videos bring up:
1) Who did Cain marry?
2) Why did the lord need to mark Cain?
(And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.) Cain, Adam and Eve are the only ones on earth at this point...who would be killing Cain if he was being cast out.
and incidently, why did the Lord want to protect a murderer soo much to take vengence on anyone whom slayed him 7 fold anyhow...(if anything, that shows what the Lord thinks about capital punishment)


[edit on 21-3-2010 by SaturnFX]

(I'm offshore and it would take a loooong time to download those videos. I will when I get a chance though.)

I'm a Christian, and I have to say I agree with _BoneZ_ on this. It's all a matter of perspective, both at the time of writing and the time of reading. I doubt that the concept of God that I have is the same as the original concept, just as I doubt the concept of God, as held by someone circa 35-200 AD, is the same as Abraham's concept of God.

Regarding Jesus being Satan being the morning star: Well, I think that a lot of that would ride on a single mistranslated verse (Isaiah 14:12) The Satan of the Old Testament is different from the Satan of the New Testament, and certainly different from the modern Christian concept of Satan as a scapegoat for everything from depression to pedophilia.

Regarding the population at the time of Cain: Cain married a woman from Nod. So, there were other people, at least one. Most likely a whole world full, but the story being told was about Adam, Eve, and their descendants.

Cain was marked because he said God's punishment was too great and he'd be a fugitive and vagabond who'd be killed when people met him. It makes you wonder what kind of mark it was, though, doesn't it?

I, too, will take the time to watch the videos a bit later today, but I have already a few comments on the questions you point to, in the OP.

First, my dad used to ask the same questions when I was a little kid, about Cain. And concerning the people Cain was to meet, according to God, I'm always surprised to see that no one thinks of Lilith, Adam's FIRST WIFE. They had kids and, basically, she fornicated and reproduced with them, leading God to throw Lilith out of Eden with her kids and all. Since they could live about a thousand years then, I imagine they kept on fornicating and reproducing amongst themselves... Slowly populating Earth... Until poor Cain got evicted too. ( Well, he was being put down by his god that demanded proteins over fibers... Not being judged on his labor or the spirit he put in it... )

About the two Gods...
I had an idea yesterday that complemented one I had a few years ago... Here it is: Lucifer means Bringer of Light. In the New Age movement, everybody talks of seeing/contacting/channeling Beings of Lights... OK, we need to go on a different topic here to understand fully what I'm about to say, next... Objects are seen in colors, by us. And the color we see ( example: a red car ) is red because the car absorbs every color of the specter EXCEPT red... Now, back to the Beings of Light. If they are luminous, isn't it because they REJECT light? And what we would perceive as a Dark Being would be so because its light would be INTERNALIZED!!!
We could say that the Dark Being is being self-centered and the Light Being is offering, but the fact that the car is red because it REJECTS the red, we should keep a constant in our appreciation of the situation. After all, the car IS everything but red.
I would even dare say that the Dark Beings that scare us and try to take us out of our bodies and out of this universe are helping angels. Why? Well, I read once that explosive technologies were satanic because destroying, like the explosion motor we use... And our universe IS a... Big Bang... So are Black Holes doors to Heaven? They DO seem to have the function of crunching back the universe, no? And there, everything UNITES again... hmm...

Yeah, I know that got a bit far from what you might have expected, sorry!

As for Jesus being the Morning Star, I'll let you know after seeing the vids!

Nice Day or Night everyone!

Aresh

Originally posted by zeropistons
Regarding the population at the time of Cain: Cain married a woman from Nod. So, there were other people, at least one. Most likely a whole world full, but the story being told was about Adam, Eve, and their descendants.

According to the video, the people were made on day 6 and the day ended..God took a nap on the 7th day, made it sanctified, etc...

The story moves on and right after the end of the 6th day, on the 7th day...the Lord created Adam...the day that was sanctified..aka, bad to work on that day. So, as God rested, the lord started working.

Originally posted by Aresh Troxit
I'm always surprised to see that no one thinks of Lilith, Adam's FIRST WIFE.

There is no evidence of that. The only real understanding is from the dead sea scrolls talking about how there was a bit of a war removing demons, nasties, Lilith, etc etc.

Lilith was a female Mesopotamian storm demon associated with wind and was thought to be a bearer of disease, illness, and death.

She was just some ancient demon..sometimes taking the form of a screeching owl from what I read with a bit more depth. Thats about it.

The Lilith is the first husband of Adam, or the wife of Cain is simple fiction and more than likely recent folklore to sell white wolf games (such as VtM, VtR, etc). Certainly cant use those sources as anything beyond fantasy.

As far as the beings of light. Well, that is a whole different bag of hammers we can continue down later in this thread...I have my speculations on it, but will let the subject stay focused for a few.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Very interesting thread, I haven't seen the videos or read everything yet but I tend to be in more agreement with the agnostics. The explanations in the bible make more sense when the et element is present. s&f

Originally posted by warisover
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Very interesting thread, I haven't seen the videos or read everything yet but I tend to be in more agreement with the agnostics. The explanations in the bible make more sense when the et element is present.

s&f

Thanks, I do hope someone does actually watch the videos and discusses them of course verses snap decide based on how they think of me though.

I'm on the 3rd video and I have to say it is a little irritating, the audio is terrible and the guy keeps repeating himself over and over. But I do agree with what he is saying. I sounds like "GOD" created everything perfectly and then Jesus (satan), who was a bad et, jumped right in and started genetically engineering us, right?

ETA: I just got to part 5, Is he saying that the "SUN" is satan? I will watch this whole thng because I'm very intrigued now (for some reason part 4 is slow to load )

[edit on 21-3-2010 by warisover]

Well, Genesis 1:26(Bere# 1:26 in the Tanakh) is when God starts speaking in plural. Is he speaking to himself solely, or is he speaking to others. (As SaturnFX mentioned) Then, of course, in Genesis 2, God is referred to as both God ('elohiym) and Lord God (Yehovah 'eloyhim). In both the bible and the Tanakh this distinction exists. I honestly don't know whether it's plurality or simply formality.

Originally posted by SaturnFXI do hope someone does actually watch the videos and discusses them of course verses snap decide based on how they think of me though.

I'm going to start downloading them now. It's not like I don't have the time, LOL. I don't know you, but it's an interesting thread so far.

Originally posted by warisover
I'm on the 3rd video and I have to say it is a little irritating, the audio is terrible and the guy keeps repeating himself over and over. But I do agree with what he is saying. I sounds like "GOD" created everything perfectly and then Jesus (satan), who was a bad et, jumped right in and started genetically engineering us, right?

Ya, the video itself is poor, the guy is repetitive, he probably smells funny also, but you get past that and hear what he is pointing out and its a smashing new view on a old book. Makes you really start wondering just what we are being told.

I think some things are a stretch..like the pictures of the sun behind Jesus to show him the sun god, morning star, etc..but hey, neva know.

Constantine did simply dust off Apollo and turn him into Christ...and Apollo in latin in a roundabout way matches 666. Sun god...mark of the beast, Son of God, etc etc..