Question for those who don't believe in aliens

Originally posted by Orkojoker
There are not an infinite number of grains of sand on Earth, but for all intents and purposes there may as well be. I feel that the same goes for stars in the universe. I would speculate that there are quite a few planets out there that are practically indistinguishable from our own, and that there are quite a few more that are indistinguishable from any other particular planet you might pick.

I agree, but agreeing that solar systems in our galaxy are common throughout we still see a much more limited chance of a planet with complex life on it. The reason is because there are basically three conditional needs required and when any of the three are lacking we might still get some kind of simple life, but complex life, intelligent life, is seriously inhibited.

First the planet would need to have an orbit basically in the band of life or "Goldilocks Zone” and this would be the distance from the sun to offer temperature ranges for complex life, next the planet’s gravity would need to be within a limited band once again for complex life to thrive, and lastly the planet would need to be stabilized to a certain degree along with a liquid core over a long period of time. This is because life takes time and complex life is rather far down the path.

I read a while back about an interesting theory on how a solar system needs a very large planet such as Jupiter to provide the right gravity offset for a solar system to actually form. Right or wrong though this theory has it merits and it does put light on the fact that there could be many other stipulations needed for that perfect situation to happen that we find ourselves in.

As far as intelligent life goes, I don't think we really have any idea how rare or common it might be. It would certainly be odd if intelligent life were the only thing in the universe of which there was only a single example, considering that there are billions and billions of everything else.

So far on earth after playing around with life for 4.5 billion years the human race is unique with their overall abilities and that says a lot in my book of perception, but being even more simpler than that is the fact that simple life comes first and life progression is not fast. We also need to understand that complex life is a living and breathing chaos theory, in that we start with simple life forms and they continually break away from order with complex life just a result. This doesn’t mean that complex life is better for in many ways it isn’t since the more complex it gets the more fragile it becomes.

With that said, one needs to ask the question as to whether intelligence is really needed or is it a random direction in the chaos theory of life.

If we had, say, 100,000 life-bearing planets that we could examine of which none had what we would call intelligent life, then I would suppose that it's pretty uncommon. But our sample size so far is 1, which is pretty meaningless when it comes to drawing conclusions. We could just as easily look at the fact that 100 percent of the life bearing planets we know of harbor intelligent life and conclude that intelligence is an inevitability once life begins. Either way we're working with some pretty scant information.

Actually it is 9 or 10.... and so far in our neck of the woods we had a 10% chance that the right planet was put into the right orbit. Mars and Venus as two great examples of planets just slightly outside of the right orbit and size.

We have 300 billion stars to work with inside our galaxy and out of that number we would need to subtract the stars that are unuseable, such as too new, old small, large etc. Then assuming thata solar system is more of a norm than not we would still have a good number of perfictly good stars that do not have planets.

Anyway we look at it we are going to eliminate a good chunk of that 300 billion. Now we continue to cause further eliminations by suggesting out of all these solar systems we still need a planet within the Goldilocks Zone and of the right density etc. Anyway you look at it and the number of 300 billion stars is greatly reduced once we add in all the requirements.

Now we need to create life on this planet and it needs to evolve into complex life with intelligence somewhere into there too, and oh they need to have the physical capabilities to use that intelligence such as we do, as in if it is an intelligent sponge I don’t see it building rocket ships. Lastly that just right race of intelligent ship builders needs to live long enough to reach the stars, and as I said before complex life is also fragile life.

But suppose there is another quality out there, let's call it "superness" for lack of a better term. Perhaps species that are super are as fundamentally different from intelligent species like us as we are from, say, fish or insects. In other words, superness is to intelligence as intelligence is to nonintelligence. Of course this is speculation, but can we think of any reason why there would be one and only one such fundamental dividing line in the hierarchy of life?

Could be, but we do have intelligence as a known factor, and we have yet to see other factors like this or factors that do not fit within the laws of physics. But I like to break things into simple and complex life and you are talking about maybe a third catagory.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
How is it that you expect something to have a similar evolutionary path as us that it would look anything similar to a hominid?
Quite preposterous indeed, if I do say so myself. Why do these creatures look like mirrors? Why oh why do they look so similar. How can they breathe our combination of gases that we had to adapt to on the singular cellular level before progressing. How can they sustain themselves with all of the bacteria and micro-organic life that we earned the right to live amongst? How is it that their scale is so similar to ours that we can not only see them with the naked eye, but they are within a few feet of height as us. Why bipedal? Chances of Earth contact in an infinite universe? Low. They are out there, but we haven't seen them yet.

I am sure that what we have seen are either time travelers or inter dimensional beings.

Or..........because they come from the exact same source as we do? and that what we think of as being extremely complex and uncomprehensible is not once we look at it in this way.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Mathematically the odds are so extreme they border on the impossibility.

In one breath many say the universe is endless with endless possibilities, but they fail to also see that an endless universe is also BIG, so there are limiting factors involved here, and so we are not really talking about endless possibilities. It is safe to say that, yes, life is out there and also most likely intelligent life too with the earth as the example, but can we really say any more than that? If intelligent aliens are around us then it is because they have always been there and most likely created us along the way, but there is no data to any of this, even remotely.

If this is not the case then Aliens would need to happen chance on us and that is where impossibilities start to creep into the picture. Earth is like the perfect world with a perfect size, distance from the sun, density, liquid core and so on, all perfect for life to flourish. Mars is a great example of a world slightly outside of perfect. On this perfect world it took 4.5 billion years for us to come along out of billions of different life forms. We are not only smart, but we also have the physically capabilities to build, and so just being smart is not enough.

But limits still are out there for life. Our galaxy has like 300 billion stars, a lot but not unlimited, we have had about 9 billion years to make planets and the perfect planet took half that time to make us, so once again this starts to whittle down the numbers. Distance is a huge limiting factor with light traveling 186,000 MPS, and as of yet there is no proof that physical matter can even come close to this.

So at this point we need to “what if” like crazy. Even if other perfect planets are sprinkled throughout our galaxy they need to create life that not only lives long enough to advance their intelligence, but also to be physically able to build, and not to forget mentally willing. Now comes the big question, how do two of these races meet much less even know the other exists?

Endless space means endless distance, but with limited time, and limited number of planets with a lot stipulations as to what the life form needs to have in becoming an intelligent space faring race, as I said the odds are on the realm of impossibilities.

Everything you have written above comes from human intellect/knowledge i.e you have learnt this from text books or people saying that this is the way. Human beings are limited by their own level of understanding. Therefore, everythhing above is and will only pertain to another human being it sounds good and logically it makes sense within the boundaries that have been set up on our behalf by the societies we live in. But, and its a big but try explaining algebra to a 3 year old, this is the anology I give when I speak to people to try and persuade them to look at 'life' from another perspective.

These are just a few questions I want to pose in regards to your post:

Mars is a great example of a world slightly outside of perfect. On this perfect world it took 4.5 billion years for us to come along out of billions of different life forms.

How do you know personally/physically that it took 4.3 billion years for us to come along?

Our galaxy has like 300 billion stars

How do you personally/physically know this?

we have had about 9 billion years to make planets and the perfect planet took half that time to make us,

How do you know this? where did you find your information are you aware personally that this is indeed true?

Endless space means endless distance, but with limited time, and limited number of planets with a lot stipulations as to what the life form needs to have in becoming an intelligent space faring race, as I said the odds are on the realm of impossibilities.

How do you know this have you personally witnessed endless space, endless distance but with limited time?

I am not nit picking here I am raising a serious issue with this whole topic, what is the difference between an abductee saying that he/she was abducted last night by a group of dwarf type extraterrestrials, and that after several examinations they were returned to their bed as though nothing happened, and the quotes I have highlighted above?

The truth is none of us know for certain anything! we can only base our opinions on the information that we receive or research, but how do we know that this information is indeed true and are not based on theories and possibilities by groups of people that think they know best?

Until each and everyone of us witness and experience something out of the ordinary we will continue having these discussions til the cows come home.

Another issue I want to make which is indeed relevant, is the fact that these so called scientists, the people who others base their strong opinions on are forever changing their minds. One example would be carbon dating, the dating of objects found buried in the ground is always changing, we get a headline story of something like "Scientist think that the pyramids may be older than originally thought" - Those people who wrote text books for the children in schools to study had originally written their books from the data given to them by the very same people who are now saying 'they' could be wrong, yet what happens? the books are revised and no one says a word.

What I am trying to say is our words and understanding can only go so far and once we reach our ceiling of enlightenment or understanding we have to rely on others to fill in the missing gaps. None of us know for sure if these gap fillers are factual or not, for all you know they could be used in order to fulfil agendas to stop our own level of advancement.

Nothing is absolute

Originally posted by franspeakfree

Everything you have written above comes from human intellect/knowledge i.e you have learnt this from text books or people saying that this is the way.

I know where you are going with this and I understand. I also can come up with 1000s of scenarios that would make our universe look like Star Trek. I can dream with the best of them, and I can understand concepts that if they were true would change my views instantly.

But my friend the big word here is “if” and I try not to rely on it for my beliefs.

Our galaxy has like 300 billion stars


How do you personally/physically know this?

I know and understand a few methods that give us a good estimate of the number, but the number was not really my point, my point was, no matter what the number was, it is a finite number when we are talking about our galaxy.

How do you know this? where did you find your information are you aware personally that this is indeed true?

What is truth? I think that is the question you are trying to put forth from your wording. I base the 9 mil on the best information that is provided by our scientific community. I could go into the details, but I don't think either would answer your question of what makes my truths, real truths.

How do you know this have you personally witnessed endless space, endless distance but with limited time?

Well see answer above....

I am not nit picking here I am raising a serious issue with this whole topic, what is the difference between an abductee saying that he/she was abducted last night by a group of dwarf type extraterrestrials, and that after several examinations they were returned to their bed as though nothing happened, and the quotes I have highlighted above?

If you do not accept math or scientific method I can see why you ask, but if you accept either even remotely they provide some answers.

The truth is none of us know for certain anything! we can only base our opinions on the information that we receive or research, but how do we know that this information is indeed true and are not based on theories and possibilities by groups of people that think they know best?

Because many theories are backed up with math...

Until each and everyone of us witness and experience something out of the ordinary we will continue having these discussions til the cows come home.

I have always said that aliens are more a personal experience, like seeing a ghost. You don't believe until it personally happens to you. And if aliens are among us then I feel it is because they have always been among us and not that they happen to find us one day.

Another issue I want to make which is indeed relevant, is the fact that these so called scientists, the people who others base their strong opinions on are forever changing their minds. One example would be carbon dating, the dating of objects found buried in the ground is always changing, we get a headline story of something like "Scientist think that the pyramids may be older than originally thought" - Those people who wrote text books for the children in schools to study had originally written their books from the data given to them by the very same people who are now saying 'they' could be wrong, yet what happens? the books are revised and no one says a word.

Methods get better, equipment gets better, more sensitive etc. knowledge base grows and theories are adjusted. I say adjusted as in saying the pyramids might end up a 1000 or two years older but not millions. Rocks might end up 4 billion or 5 billion, but not 10 billion or 7000 years old.

It seems you want to dump facts in with conjectures and hypothesis and there is a big difference. When something is fact it is fact. Math is about as factual as we can get, and many scientific methods lead to facts.
If none of this can be trusted as you might think, then there is not even an open mind, for if these can’t be trusted then what can? Everything could be faked.

What I am trying to say is our words and understanding can only go so far and once we reach our ceiling of enlightenment or understanding we have to rely on others to fill in the missing gaps. None of us know for sure if these gap fillers are factual or not, for all you know they could be used in order to fulfil agendas to stop our own level of advancement.

Nothing is absolute

So what is you point? Nothing can be proven or believed? For that is what you are suggesting in your post.


You say our understanding of reality is flawed and not provable, but then you go on and suggest that there are other realities. Other realities based on what? I can play that game too, but right now I will put my belief in the tangible and my reality is tangible and yours is most likely just a thought.



[edit on 23-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

I agree that it would be disheartening if 'first contact' never happens in my lifetime, here's hoping theres a afterlife!