Question for those who don't believe in aliens

We all know that Earth is but a speck in the galaxy, let alone in the universe. So how is it that you are unwilling to believe in aliens?

I'm not saying that you have to believe they have visited earth. I'm just curious to why when you look out into the night sky and see all of the stars you think that we are the only life form.

I won't criticize I'm just curious.

Hi Pajjikor,

Dunno, but think five years ago, more or less, Debunkers would be lined up wall-to-wall to exume their will on Your question.

Seems to me that as of late the tables have turned for various and obvious reasons. (Less: Seth Shostack, of course). Seth knows more about money in his pocket v. reality and the earth laden EBEs within, on, or above it.

Decoy

How is it that you expect something to have a similar evolutionary path as us that it would look anything similar to a hominid?
Quite preposterous indeed, if I do say so myself. Why do these creatures look like mirrors? Why oh why do they look so similar. How can they breathe our combination of gases that we had to adapt to on the singular cellular level before progressing. How can they sustain themselves with all of the bacteria and micro-organic life that we earned the right to live amongst? How is it that their scale is so similar to ours that we can not only see them with the naked eye, but they are within a few feet of height as us. Why bipedal? Chances of Earth contact in an infinite universe? Low. They are out there, but we haven't seen them yet.

I am sure that what we have seen are either time travelers or inter dimensional beings.

Originally posted by Pajjikor
We all know that Earth is but a speck in the galaxy, let alone in the universe. So how is it that you are unwilling to believe in aliens?

I'm not saying that you have to believe they have visited earth. I'm just curious to why when you look out into the night sky and see all of the stars you think that we are the only life form.

I won't criticize I'm just curious.

So when you say "aliens" are you suggesting intellignet spacefaring kind or any lifeform, such as mold?



[edit on 20-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

i think you will struggle to find anyone who doesn't believe life exists elsewhere. Its them visiting earth people dont think is happening.

just my opinion but the majority of people attempting to deny the posibility of ANY extra terrestrial life , are motivated by fundamentalist religious views

reply to post by TheOneElectric


You have summed it up in a nut-shell.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To paraphrase the late Harvard biologist Stephen Jay Gould ....

`If you could rewind the tape of Earths biological history and begin the process again- the outcome would surely be different`

Perhaps there would have been no humans ......... or even mammals for that matter ,second time around.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe there is life Out There...... what it looks like may be as difficult to fathom as imagining another unknown colour .

We are a product of our environment ...... no doubt they are also .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------




edit spelling

[edit on 20-3-2010 by UmbraSumus]

Mathematically the odds are so extreme they border on the impossibility.

In one breath many say the universe is endless with endless possibilities, but they fail to also see that an endless universe is also BIG, so there are limiting factors involved here, and so we are not really talking about endless possibilities. It is safe to say that, yes, life is out there and also most likely intelligent life too with the earth as the example, but can we really say any more than that? If intelligent aliens are around us then it is because they have always been there and most likely created us along the way, but there is no data to any of this, even remotely.

If this is not the case then Aliens would need to happen chance on us and that is where impossibilities start to creep into the picture. Earth is like the perfect world with a perfect size, distance from the sun, density, liquid core and so on, all perfect for life to flourish. Mars is a great example of a world slightly outside of perfect. On this perfect world it took 4.5 billion years for us to come along out of billions of different life forms. We are not only smart, but we also have the physically capabilities to build, and so just being smart is not enough.

But limits still are out there for life. Our galaxy has like 300 billion stars, a lot but not unlimited, we have had about 9 billion years to make planets and the perfect planet took half that time to make us, so once again this starts to whittle down the numbers. Distance is a huge limiting factor with light traveling 186,000 MPS, and as of yet there is no proof that physical matter can even come close to this.

So at this point we need to “what if” like crazy. Even if other perfect planets are sprinkled throughout our galaxy they need to create life that not only lives long enough to advance their intelligence, but also to be physically able to build, and not to forget mentally willing. Now comes the big question, how do two of these races meet much less even know the other exists?

Endless space means endless distance, but with limited time, and limited number of planets with a lot stipulations as to what the life form needs to have in becoming an intelligent space faring race, as I said the odds are on the realm of impossibilities.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Mathematically the odds are so extreme they border on the impossibility.

In one breath many say the universe is endless with endless possibilities, but they fail to also see that an endless universe is also BIG, so there are limiting factors involved here, and so we are not really talking about endless possibilities. It is safe to say that, yes, life is out there and also most likely intelligent life too with the earth as the example, but can we really say any more than that? If intelligent aliens are around us then it is because they have always been there and most likely created us along the way, but there is no data to any of this, even remotely.

I'll have to disagree. I think to say the universe does not have endless possibilities is arrogance. I mean look at us. Somewhere in time the perfect conditions developed to harbor life on Earth. Seems to me like the possibility for life proves it's endless.
There are also countless scriptures, myths and stories present from long ago, along with unexplained architecture, astronomy, and origin. Our race is told began with ancient Sumer. Yeah Right ! a civilisation at the peak of it's existence suddenly appears.

Of course we want to see proof, but without an open mind and more important our fantasy our development stops and our lives become pointless.

If this is not the case then Aliens would need to happen chance on us and that is where impossibilities start to creep into the picture. Earth is like the perfect world with a perfect size, distance from the sun, density, liquid core and so on, all perfect for life to flourish. Mars is a great example of a world slightly outside of perfect. On this perfect world it took 4.5 billion years for us to come along out of billions of different life forms. We are not only smart, but we also have the physically capabilities to build, and so just being smart is not enough.

Life on Earth started it's existence in a place hostile and toxic for us. ( death comes within minutes)
Mars lacks gravity to hold on to it's atmosphere. Not so strange it's not so much bigger then our Moon is. Venus is said to be to hot, but only due to it's atmosphere. If it's atmosphere was not full of green house gasses it's temperatures would surely plummet to a degree for life to be possible.
Size or distance to the sun IMO does not even matter. A bigger planet or with bigger star further away should work to. Or what about a bigger mars with a bit of Venus green house gasses. Or Maybe a star the size of 10 suns would make Pluto a nice and warm place to be at.

But limits still are out there for life. Our galaxy has like 300 billion stars, a lot but not unlimited, we have had about 9 billion years to make planets and the perfect planet took half that time to make us, so once again this starts to whittle down the numbers. Distance is a huge limiting factor with light traveling 186,000 MPS, and as of yet there is no proof that physical matter can even come close to this.

Our limit is our imagination what limits us. We are just not really capable of seeing possibilities outside our own perception of the universe.
You must agree our senses are a pretty limited. The easiest example is infrared light. I'll back up my thoughts by saying, nature proves to us that life is capable of unimaginable ways for life to prosper. Look at deep ocean chimneys.

So at this point we need to “what if” like crazy. Even if other perfect planets are sprinkled throughout our galaxy they need to create life that not only lives long enough to advance their intelligence, but also to be physically able to build, and not to forget mentally willing. Now comes the big question, how do two of these races meet much less even know the other exists?

They don't but I think it's not to hard for me to imagine they have a similar curiosity and the same questions we do. Like why ? and Would there maybe ?

Endless space means endless distance, but with limited time, and limited number of planets with a lot stipulations as to what the life form needs to have in becoming an intelligent space faring race, as I said the odds are on the realm of impossibilities.

It's save to say that our own limits are limiting us.

We just don't know. We would not even comprehend intelligence as it bites us in our bottom. We are to full of ourselves to realise we are just a grain of sand in an endless ocean full of endless, mind blowing possibilities.


Just my two cents

For me, I think it's a lack of discernment. I'm unable to discern what is truth and what is not. For instance, I can spend a whole day reading about why aliens exist, and at the end of the day... actually believe they exist.

On the other hand, I can spend the whole day reading that they don't exist, and so by the end of the day I'm confused, and decide, "Well, they probably don't exist."

The only thing that keep's me "wondering" is the crop circles.

Originally posted by yeti101
i think you will struggle to find anyone who doesn't believe life exists elsewhere. Its them visiting earth people dont think is happening.

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
just my opinion but the majority of people attempting to deny the posibility of ANY extra terrestrial life , are motivated by fundamentalist religious views

yeti101 is surely correct, and this is the best answer to the OP question. It's why I'm always shocked when I read a post saying "how can you think that UFO isn't alien? How could Earth be the only place with intelligent life in this huge universe?" as if those two questions had more than a passing relationship. Most people do think there's probably life elsewhere, including me.

But ignorant_ape may be right, I know there are a very very tiny number of people who think there isn't life elsewhere, and I won't say they are all religious fundamentalists, I'm sure not all are, but I suspect many are.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Mathematically the odds are so extreme they border on the impossibility.
On this perfect world it took 4.5 billion years for us to come along out of billions of different life forms. We are not only smart, but we also have the physically capabilities to build, and so just being smart is not enough.

But limits still are out there for life. Our galaxy has like 300 billion stars, a lot but not unlimited, we have had about 9 billion years to make planets and the perfect planet took half that time to make us, so once again this starts to whittle down the numbers. Distance is a huge limiting factor with light traveling 186,000 MPS, and as of yet there is no proof that physical matter can even come close to this.

So at this point we need to “what if” like crazy. Even if other perfect planets are sprinkled throughout our galaxy they need to create life that not only lives long enough to advance their intelligence, but also to be physically able to build, and not to forget mentally willing. Now comes the big question, how do two of these races meet much less even know the other exists?

While I can't agree with the statement "Mathematically the odds are so extreme they border on the impossibility.", other than that conclusion, I do think Xtrozero raises excellent points all of which I agree with. I think the probabilities are highly overestimated for how many worlds exist which are suitable for life, and for how many of those worlds will develop intelligent life. Heck just looking at Earth, which is teeming with life, intelligent life seems highly improbable. The planet existed for over 4.4 billion years without intelligent life, which until we came along tends to do more to prove the extreme improbability of intelligent lfe than the probability of it. But there is some finite probability, however small, since obviously we are here.

Now this gets me too, when people say not only are there over 100 billion stars in our galaxy, but there are another 100+ billion other galaxies out there each with over 100 billion stars. That increases the odds a lot to include all those other galaxies, however with the possible exception of one other galaxy, Andromeda which is on a collision course with us, it's unlikely we could or would ever know anything of life in any other galaxies, the distances between galaxies are simply too vast. Even the distances within our galaxy may be too vast but at least there's some hope of detecting alien radio or light signals, etc. And what most people don't seem to realize is that most of the stars in OUR galaxy are NOT conducive to life, so the numbers of possibilities are not as vast as people like to quote.

Life elsewhere is highly likely, intelligent life, less so, but we really have no reason to assume intelligent life is unique. I do think that our exact bipedal human life form is probably unique, it's even uncommon on Earth.

Arthur C. Clarke didn't know if there was life on other planets, but he felt it was a scary prospect either way; he said, "Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Arthur C. Clarke didn't know if there was life on other planets, but he felt it was a scary prospect either way; he said, "Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

Then he was a fool.
If there is intelligent life out there. He is afraid they would behave like us.

If there is not. Well... the arrogance ! But maybe... God. Screw it if God wouldn't be intelligent alien life pfff...

Then there is the question of us being intelligent. It does not look like it :shk:

reply to post by Xtrozero


sorry it took so long to get back its been a busy day.

I do not mean mold, I am referring to something that can think for itself and has to find food and shelter to live.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Arthur C. Clarke didn't know if there was life on other planets, but he felt it was a scary prospect either way; he said, "Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

Then he was a fool.
If there is intelligent life out there. He is afraid they would behave like us.

If there is not. Well... the arrogance ! But maybe... God. Screw it if God wouldn't be intelligent alien life pfff...

Are you saying that there's a third possibility he didn't consider? If not then I don't see why pointing out those two possibilities is foolish, he didn't say they were equally probable, one could have a 99.9% probability and the other a 0.1% probability, but still both are possible.

And what's wrong with thinking other intelligences could be warlike like we are? We're the only intelligent species we know and we are warlike so it doesn't seem like a stretch to think other intelligences could also be warlike. I admit they may not be, in fact there may be some of each, some benevolent ETs and some evil ETs. We just don't know.

Anyway I think you were a little harsh on Arthur C Clarke calling him a fool, he's actually quite a smart guy. do you even know who he is and what he's done? Pay attention to what he says at 1 minute 50 seconds in this video:



And no that doesn't contradict his statement about 2 possibilities, it just shows he's open minded (unlike some people) even if he thinks one possibility is way more likely, he admits the other possibility exists.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Oh no that was not what I meant.

I agree with you and he's a hero in my book.

I believe fear ( scary ) for something we can't do nothing about is foolish.
I also think you can and may be a fool and still be a hero or a friend.
IMO being a fool is not a bad thing.

It is a stamp for acting stupid. I did not mean it as insulting as it may have looked



[edit on 21-3-2010 by Sinter Klaas]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Even the distances within our galaxy may be too vast but at least there's some hope of detecting alien radio or light signals, etc. And what most people don't seem to realize is that most of the stars in OUR galaxy are NOT conducive to life, so the numbers of possibilities are not as vast as people like to quote.

I read something awhile ago that I never thought of but it makes sense. Radio signals only have about 100 year life spand of detection, so we are talking about an extremely limited time here. We are now approaching a point where our signals are either all cable or very focus with little bleed over to go out into space.

Life elsewhere is highly likely, intelligent life, less so, but we really have no reason to assume intelligent life is unique. I do think that our exact bipedal human life form is probably unique, it's even uncommon on Earth.

You kind of hit on the point that you need many more qualifiers for a space faring species than just an intelligent species, What if the most intelligent species in our galaxy is a sponge like creature deep in some ocean? Having thumbs is just as important as having intelligence.



[edit on 21-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Pajjikor


Alien life does exist and there was a meteor a while back that contained alien germs on it which doesn't just suggest there is alien life out there it proves it!

Originally posted by Pajjikor
We all know that Earth is but a speck in the galaxy, let alone in the universe. So how is it that you are unwilling to believe in aliens?

I'm not saying that you have to believe they have visited earth. I'm just curious to why when you look out into the night sky and see all of the stars you think that we are the only life form.

I won't criticize I'm just curious.

Mixed Bag here, and although at times I seem narrow minded; it's simply not just the case.

I just hate to here someone whining about the latest SyFy game they lost while in God mode, Bit**ing about it in a 'way of words.'.

I accept the possibility, but as many on this board wait for something to fall from the sky like in those movies is ridiculous.

I look at the sky at night, and what I see is openess. Peaceful, not war-like like so many that get a rush from games, like Blizzard's popular StarCraft series.

Yes, it's possible, but that a select few who await the Power Overlords to dominate through secret technologies is out of the question.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
I'll have to disagree. I think to say the universe does not have endless possibilities is arrogance. I mean look at us. Somewhere in time the perfect conditions developed to harbor life on Earth. Seems to me like the possibility for life proves it's endless.
There are also countless scriptures, myths and stories present from long ago, along with unexplained architecture, astronomy, and origin. Our race is told began with ancient Sumer. Yeah Right ! a civilisation at the peak of it's existence suddenly appears.

Of course we want to see proof, but without an open mind and more important our fantasy our development stops and our lives become pointless.

But it is not endless, because we have a limited amount of time to make life with roughly 9 billion years since the universe started to make planets. The universe started as mostly hydrogen and a little helium, and it wasn’t until stars formed and went super nova that the universe started to see the heavier elements, and this took time, hence the 9 billion years or less for planets to form. This means things are not endless even if the universe is endless.

I would also think we need to first start in our own backyard (our galaxy) and we are talking basically 100,000 light years on the extreme end in distance. Even at the massive speed of 1/10 the speed of light these distances are a very big barrier to overcome, because once again we need to deal with time as a factor.

Talking about life, we are proof of only intelligence at this point in time, and it is not proven on whether intelligence is a good or bad evolutionary trait. Right now it is leaning on the bad side for it has made us a very complex and fragile species with the capabilities of destroying all life on earth. If a large comet hit the earth there is a great chance we will not survive even though life in general will.

I’m not saying that there is no other intelligent life out there, I’m just saying the odds are we will never meet it anytime soon.

Life on Earth started it's existence in a place hostile and toxic for us. ( death comes within minutes)
Mars lacks gravity to hold on to it's atmosphere. Not so strange it's not so much bigger then our Moon is. Venus is said to be to hot, but only due to it's atmosphere. If it's atmosphere was not full of green house gasses it's temperatures would surely plummet to a degree for life to be possible.
Size or distance to the sun IMO does not even matter. A bigger planet or with bigger star further away should work to. Or what about a bigger mars with a bit of Venus green house gasses. Or Maybe a star the size of 10 suns would make Pluto a nice and warm place to be at.

Any way you look at it still needs to end up into a somewhat perfect condition, don't you agree? The sun is actually a little bit larger than the typical sun, so much bigger ones are smaller in number, and have an extremely short lifespan before they go nova making them not very suitable for life making planets around them at any distance. Venus is hotter than Mercury due to a runway greenhouse effect, and is a great example on how fragile our earth environment actually is to maintain the life it does. Mars once had a liquid core that protected its atmosphere and water, but its core solidified and it lost the magnetic protection from that liquid core billions of years ago. I’m sure we will find evidence of life there, but it just didn’t have the time to fully develop as earth has since once it lost the magnetic protection its atmosphere and water evaporated off into space. BTW earth’s core will solidify too one day.

Our limit is our imagination what limits us. We are just not really capable of seeing possibilities outside our own perception of the universe.
You must agree our senses are a pretty limited. The easiest example is infrared light. I'll back up my thoughts by saying, nature proves to us that life is capable of unimaginable ways for life to prosper. Look at deep ocean

Imagination is great but does it equal belief too?

They don't but I think it's not to hard for me to imagine they have a similar curiosity and the same questions we do. Like why ? and Would there maybe ?

It's save to say that our own limits are limiting us.

We just don't know. We would not even comprehend intelligence as it bites us in our bottom. We are to full of ourselves to realise we are just a grain of sand in an endless ocean full of endless, mind blowing possibilities.

What If you say life in general and I say life that is a 5000 pound purple flying elephant that can do quadratic equations? My imagination made it up, but that doesn’t give it much of a chance to be real too. This is what we are doing when we say intelligent, space faring, galaxy traveling life.

I think we need to prove things within our *cough* little galaxy first. Other intelligent life means little unless we can interact with it and so if we can’t find intelligent life within our 100,000 light years then endless universe/endless possibilities has no meaning. Can you imagine sending probes out over millions/billions of years at let’s say 1/10 the speed of light. Can anything actually make something that can last 100,000s of years and can wait the half a million years for it to get halfway across our galaxy and 50,000 more years to get the last transmissions? Then spend another 500,000 plus years sending space ships to us… lots of barriers.

Now I agree with you that imagination over comes all these barriers, but so far physics hasn’t. Because of that I need to dream the dreams but put my reality in the hands of physics.



[edit on 21-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Xtrozero

This also where i disagree..
1. Xtro, "Limited amount of time to create life" Is just an absorption of the case at hand where is took life 4.5-4.9 billion years to get where we are with the intelligence we carry..
2.Science has no conclusion on the age of the universe as it's instruments can not in fact detect age up to that date with isometric/carbon or radio-active dating.. especially since the only way of dating anything here on our planet is to go by element's that already exist.
3. where did this magical number come from that let us know the age of planets? We know are planet in theory, but have no conclusion or verifiable information on others (Logic 101).
4. You stated and i quote "This means things are not endless even if the universe is endless." This is a contradictory since your saying the universe might be endless but yet by some magical way, just happened to create the necessary elements for life and "outer" structures to form.. How do "things" such as helium, hydrogen, carbon etc create on their own in a infinite universe without a "mother" source for participation?