Representation without representation

The Wall Street Journal gives a nice like article on where the bill currently stands. This article was written almost as simple to understand as a USA Today article, but it does skip the heavy drama associated with the bill.

Our nation is slowly heading more towards socialism, and from there maybe even communism. I don't know what's in store in the future, but if things keep going the way they are, it won't be good.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Dear OutKast - I think that with the millions of dollars spent for advertising in campaign ads and the cost of the advertisers/image makers to develop a candidate (notice how that our last 3 presidents came out of relatively nowhere?), that a regular person, even a well suited experienced person has no chance....Hollywood has taken over the image part of the campaign. Few if any can be elected to any Federal office without money from the corporate structure,..as well as the Political Party structure. It is a machine. Candidates are carefully selected; and when they get into office, controlled. And if anyone would care to look back into American history, they will see this same system has ALWAYS favored the rich, the powerful. Only a few politicos have ever bucked the system; some to their own peril such as Wellstone.

Originally posted by LaMadameDuval
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

Dear OutKast - I think that with the millions of dollars spent for advertising in campaign ads and the cost of the advertisers/image makers to develop a candidate (notice how that our last 3 presidents came out of relatively nowhere?),

Hmmm...By "came out of relatively nowhere" do you mean the son of a President/before that Vice President..? GWB or The former Senate Candidate, Governor of Arkansas and Rhode Scholar, Bill Clinton?

Originally posted by junglejake
reply to post by maybereal11

 

It looks like I might be mistaken about the health care aspect.

[..........]

My bad!

Thank you for admitting the error.

Since we both know that this is a heated debate marked by folks responding to erroneous headlines...would you be opposed to doing the right thing and editing your OP to clarify that this is not a "blind vote".

I would expect a Moderator to have a higher standard than the average "political madness" poster.

Originally posted by junglejake
I do think the question is one we still need to consider, though. Currently, the only things the house and senate can vote on without the public being privy to their votes is items classified due to national security.

Different topic, worthy of a different OP and not a valid reason to let an innacurate OP stand uncorrected.

Also...I could be wrong, but I don't think the public is not privy to how they voted on national security matters, but rather "what" they voted on...and I believe this pertains to a select comittee on intelligence rather than the entire House or Senate.

Originally posted by junglejake
However, it really seems, if you follow the discussions many politicians are having, that health care reform is more important than anything else, and we stupid Americans can't be trusted to make the decision as to what's best for us.

Again...a different topic and not an excuse to let an admittedly inaccurate OP stand unedited.

I would also disagree with the whole "America doesn't want healthcare reform/America doesn't want this bill" rhetoric.

I have followed this debate very closely. The insurance and pharmaceuticals have constructed and paid for numerous polls that contained incredible biased questions...and the GOP who has also been funded by the same insurance and pharmaceutical interests have taken those innacurate polls and used them for thier rhetoric.

The only poll that has been run recently that was genuinely independant was done by the Kaiser Foundation and that poll revealed that though there was evidence that the rhetoric from the GOP had taken hold in some....When asked not about the bill in general...but rather the actual components of the bill...The vast majority of Rep/Dems and Independants were for the components of the bill.

see here
www.kff.org...




[edit on 19-3-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by maybereal11


I disagree. The first sentence in the OP was inaccurate. When I said this:

The new plan is to do a blind vote for health care.

I was mistaken. There has been talk about it, though. So I believe my points were on the topic being discussed.

I did edit out that line, though.

Agreed. Thank you. That does change the context.

When I have time I will return and post what I can find about secretive voting, special security comittees etc.

I believe it is called something like "the gang of seven" who vote on black ops and special black project funding etc.

Folks, it's this simple: The Senate RULES are merely about decorum. The "Filibuster" is more a tradition of what they honor and is NOT a Constitutional rule or even a law that must be followed. The Senate, merely honors its own rules by tradition.

Everything, that is now being done to pass Health Care -- is something that was done many, many times with the Republicans and George Bush. Their fat tax-cut for Billionaires was squeaked through. 3AM appointments -- people given a permanent government appointment via "Recess" when politicians are leaving for holiday. It's all been done.

The main problem is: the Democrats are spineless, and they don't make a stink when the Republicans and News Media lie. That's the main support for their nonsense and "facts" -- just bald faced lying. Republicans don't have the moral high ground, haven't passed one bill I can think of in 30 years that HELPS the American worker, and if we are keeping score, are slightly more Corporate and crooked than the Democratic party.

Our economic crash is likely coming, but the difference is; do we want a parachute when we hit? In the first "Republican Great Depression" America was a major exporter, we had large farms, we had self-reliance and a can do attitude. We can all skip a few meals, but can we really survive our own self-righteous whining and forgetting that we can solve problems together?

Our Democracy, is the only real power between us and everything else with power; foreign nations, multinational corporations, and coordinating our efforts for the common good. The REAL PROBLEM, is we've forgotten that government is NOT the problem -- it is US. And we let Robber Barons convince us we can trust the wealthy and government will always fail. Then they bribed, manipulated, and educated a whole generation of Politicians to prove to us just that.

>> I don't like the Health Care Bill at all, but that's not the point here. The Democratic House and Senate are the elected representatives we have -- and they are using the process to pass a bill -- it isn't any more EVIL than that. But the Media is so manipulated, it's a "conspiracy."

All the Democrats need to do, is enter the Senate with the same number of people to vote YEA as the Republicans have to vote NAY. When the Republicans vote against cloture (coming to a vote -- so voting on whether everyone is ready to vote), the Democrats can tie the vote. Thus, Joe Lieberman can break the tie, and send the bill to resolution -- no nuclear option required. Is it a trick to get around the roadblocks? Sure. But the Republicans are interfering with the Democratic process once again and the Filibuster was never intended to be used to CONTROL the political process -- so THEY have interfered with the Democratic process by using cheap tricks.

High time that the Democrats start being as underhanded as the Republicans if they are going to be accused of it anyway.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Outkast, good points you are making, but I think you cannot convince the person you are debating with -- they KNOW what they know, and facts aren't going to matter.

First, most of these "new conservatives" don't LIKE helping the poor, and are perfectly happy with some people not getting health care. If they pay for first class, they'd rather the seat on the plane next to them go empty than to give it to someone who didn't pay.

The real problem is, I think, we are debating people who just want to win, and don't really care about any of the "principles" they champion. They didn't cry out when the Patriot Act was voted in, because they thought it would be used against Arabs and Muslims.

Sure, many people are upset that Obama has not ended Bush's policies and power grab and has not release people from GitMo, and we'd rather NOT run up a deficit. But the spending is going towards SOME jobs, and it's not even as much as what Bush spent (if you add all the off-balance sheet spending).

Congress is doing NOTHING that the Republicans didn't do under Bush when they forced through a $72 Billion tax break for the top 2%.

The Constitution isn't the problem, the spending isn't the problem, health care isn't the problem -- it's two-faced partisans who just want to win and have different motives that they don't want to admit to.

I'm pissed at Obama for being a Republican -- not as bad as Clinton or Bush, but we need an FDR right now. I'm for the bill now, because Dennis Kucinich says we need to hold our nose and vote for it -- because ti's the best we can do in our corrupt system.