Do you have free will or not?

Is there such phenomena as free will? I have recently read far too many post which promote the concept of free will, so I felt urge to start a thread regarding to it.

So, if you are proponent of free will, care to explain why? Can you prove that your actions are based on your freedom to decide your actions? Are you sure that you are not driven by stimulus, which you response in a static manner?

Currently I am against the possibility of free will. We humans are organs that response to a stimuli in a programmed way; this programming is based to our genes, racial inheritance, education, personality and so on.

Whatever action I choose to take, there seems always be underlying motifs that determine my action. It seems to me, that there is only freedom of choice, and even that may be illusion.

I could leave this thread unposted and truly, momentarily I held bluepainted text under threat of delete just to feel my emotions. There was a curious feeling that I could force myself to delete it all, but then again, would that been an act of free will? No, because I would've done it just to demonstrate that I could've done it. Again there would've been a motif for my action, that would've rendered free will to non-existent.

So tell us all what you think. If you think there's definately free will, provide an explanation why it is so.

Below are some other threads about the same issue, on little bit distinct approach:

The Concept of "Free will" is a lie!! by SpeakerofTruth
On Free Will by jkrog08
The Illusion of Free Will by LocoHombre

-v

If one had free will, one could just take up some land, not pay taxes on it, and such;

one could grow drugs, drive without a license, go anywhere in the world, even North Korea;

but there is no free will.

I think 'free will' is a buzzword coined by the Illuminati to tell people something that just isn't true at all.

reply to post by star in a jar


Well yeah, those you mentioned are things that are well beyond range of free will. But do we have free will even on the smallest of issues, like digging my nose or not?

I may decide not to dig it, because it would make me appear vulgar in the eyes of others or whatever reason. There's a reason for every action, and the reason hence renders concept of free will non-existent.

To have free will, I should be able to determine my actions without any driving reasons, right?

-v

reply to post by v01i0


We never have free-will. Our minds are influenced and corrupted by the media and the notion that we must be politically correct. If we had free will there would be no organization of law. Free will would result in the "ignorance is bliss" mindset. Hmmm still thinking in this one.

My thoughts.

If I understand correctly, the OP refers to free 'will'(action), and the question is are we truly mentally deciding even the most minute actions or choices that we take on an individual level.

Or are we prompted by instinct, society or environment?

Well, excellent question, and to dodge the semantic game and use the strict term 'free will' I would say it does not exist and can not exist. I think free THOUGHT exists, to an extent, but only an extent. Even our more conscious thoughts are, after all, subtly influenced by old memories, reactions and such.

Maybe all we truly have is free opinion....and to few of us even recognize that.

Well... I take it I have a powerful will. I have power will. Besides, what is free will if the will has no power? With power will I might be able to pull off winning a large sum of money by what one would mistakenly think was by luck, when no, it would be by power will. Power will puts things in stone and writing in the stars that wasn't before one's power will is put to the want.

To have no free will is to have no choice, like the robots in a factory.

But there's always choices in life.

If you feel you are stifled, to pay taxes, to conform to society norms, you have absolute freedom to go elsewhere,for example Somalia. Airports are opened 24 hours a day. No one will murder you or snuff your consciousness if you leave.

No one is holding you back. Not even your loved ones, for you have absolutely free will to force them against their will to make them go with you, or to abandon them, or to kill them and get it over an done with.

Free will is fully yours to choose. But it will be the sum of your education and experiences, that makes up your REALITY, to choose. And for that to happen, it takes maturity and comprehension of your responsibilities not only to yourself, but to the society you live in, beginning with your family, relatives and friends.

Make your choice - jungle and its laws by yourself, or cities with responsiblities to one another. Freedom comes at a price called consideration to others. Freedom of will too comes with a price, and called responsibility to your life and others with such powers.

No freedom of will equally means no responsibilities. And only the dead have no responsibilities.

I walked away from my 2k a month job last month because it didn't make me happy anymore and today I started a new job that pays a lot less.

I don't care about the recession, if you're talented you will find a job.


Finding your happiness is the key to life and you have to unlock that door yourself.

That is free will.

now freedom is another topic...

We humans have the power to choose, but we do not have free will.

We are programmed by everything around us, however within that programmed circle, we have the power to choose where it takes us. We have certain limits based on financial, racial, belief systems but none of it can stop us from doing what makes us happy.

reply to post by Nostradumbass


Leave the semantics and spare the convolultions onto the shelf. To have choices, to choose is free will itself, in its simplest form.

The computer operates upon electrical power and the software programmes to make it function. It cannot operate outside of its programme parameters, nor will be able to do so without programme input.

Humans are biological beings. Our programme of functions lay in our DNA. We cannot operate outside of our DNA parameters. Or could we? Afterall, how much do we actually know of our own parameters?

For example, we know that we cannot fly today. We only assumed, based upon current knowledge, that we cannot do so and is impossible. However, how much have we progress from the caves, with what was thought impossible being possible today?

In conclusion, the parameters of our lives are still unknown, and input into our programme is continous as we build upon current knowledge based on experimentations and experiences.

To make that choice outside of our parameters, governed by our societal norms and beliefs, is an act of greater free will which the computer cannot do so alone. But it must be reminded - each alone is responsible and answerable for such powers.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by Nostradumbass

 

Leave the semantics and spare the convolultions onto the shelf. To have choices, to choose is free will itself, in its simplest form.

The computer operates upon electrical power and the software programmes to make it function. It cannot operate outside of its programme parameters, nor will be able to do so without programme input.

Humans are biological beings. Our programme of functions lay in our DNA. We cannot operate outside of our DNA parameters. Or could we? Afterall, how much do we actually know of our own parameters?

For example, we know that we cannot fly today. We only assumed, based upon current knowledge, that we cannot do so and is impossible. However, how much have we progress from the caves, with what was thought impossible being possible today?

In conclusion, the parameters of our lives are still unknown, and input into our programme is continous as we build upon current knowledge based on experimentations and experiences.

To make that choice outside of our parameters, governed by our societal norms and beliefs, is an act of greater free will which the computer cannot do so alone. But it must be reminded - each alone is responsible and answerable for such powers.

Impossible is nothing.
Anything is possible.
We just have to understand that we shouldn't be confined by where we grew up. If we keep giving into the higher powers demands, then we will never be happy. But if we accept their demands, and grow from there, that is the only way to be truly happy.

A general reply to the proponents of free will.

Ah but see, all that you mention is not free will. For example, leaving a job that won't make you happy is not act of free will. Neither is act of free will going into airport and flying somewhere for leisure and fun. You have really think about the reasons why you do specific actions to understand what I mean.

It seems that I am poor at utilizing the correct words to verbally demonstrate the point which I want to make, but I'll do my best. Unfortunately, at this very moment my time is somewhat short, but I'll make this attempt anyway, maybe I try to clarify once I have more time at hand.

Let us assume that I am proponent of free will. I am under that impression that my every action is of free will. I would like to do that, but suddenly I feel urge to go urinate and my course of action is interrupted because of the urge of urination. I could decide to urinate in my pants and continue whatever I was doing without interruption. But is that act of free will? It depends much on what I was doing, but obviously it was something quite important as I decide to leak on my pants. Why was it important? Because I chose so or because I have some inner emotion that tells me it is so important?

Maybe that was an bad example. Let us take another, an extreme form of something we consider to be free will: The suicide.

I decide to put an end to my days here and now. Why I want to do that? Life has betrayed me and I've betrayed life. I have arrived an alley which is an dead end. Why is that so? Not necessarily due my own actions? This last decisicion, to cut the wrists, to take the pills, to pull a trigger or to kick the chair under the legs - is it act of free will? Or is it because our mental processes of the brain sees no option? We would need a new stimuli to give that option not do commit suicide, right?

That was bit of an extreme example, let's take yet another. For some reason, I think that my neighbour is an idiot. For years I've refrained myself of telling her that. Suddenly, she does something so very irritating that I cannot hold myself anymore: I'll burst to her face with a devastating verbal attack. Again, the stimuli has decided my action on my behalf.

Tormentations says he has free will, strong will. I'd invite him to pay close attention to his actions and see if he really does, or is he claiming so without full understanding?

I do not necessarily deny the existence of free will, but I suspect it's existence; far more probable we are biological machines that are driven by both outward and inward stimuli that decide our actions. I am not sure, but I wish that the conversation would shed some light into the issue.

Thanks everyone for commenting!

-v

[edit on 17-3-2010 by v01i0]

reply to post by Nostradumbass


Then you have a choice to NOT act out the demand of others. The airport are opened 24 hours a day or fight it out with them. That itself is free will. Your choices will either make you happy or sad.

But as we are no longer savages of the jungles, or living in our own island, you will have to consider the happiness or sadness of your own action impact to those who are beside you.

Free will does exists, and is your choice. No one can force you. Only your conscience and consiousness, and that gained through your education and experiences in life.

Political or societal demands are another separate issue, and nothing to do with Free Will per se, for political or societal demands can change over time, but free will is eternal.

( as for the religious, it is a promise so long as they keep to their side of the covenants. Utimately each will know his/her creator in their own time.)

The exercise of free will can sometimes be seen in little things like deciding what side of the street your going to stand on. Little things like this can sometimes appear to us as if we're not really in control, but we are. Choices and decisions make up free will. To test this theory let me give you an example. Touch the monitor screen. Yes, I said touch the monitor screen anywhere will do. OK. Now read on.

Having asked for you to touch the monitor screen, I already know that I can't see you, but that's not the point. Someone somewhere touched the screen and so there is a difference in being influenced but even then at some point you must commit to a decision to do so or not to do so.

If you touched your monitor you were perhaps meant to and if you did not then perhaps you too were meant not to. Some yes and some no tells me that we still own some part of the decision and because of that small point I believe that when for instance a jet airliner crashes that everyone on board the fateful flight was meant to be there or not be there. Something in our decision or exercise of "Free Will" leads us to where we were meant to be and in that process I remain somewhat open to what that might imply.

I don't know if you're going to get a good answer good enough to write some thesis or write a book, but as for ideas and fuel for thought goes, I am certain I have given you something to ponder. I know it still stumps me to think that I have free will but that somehow on a collective level we all come together for a bigger form of exercise of so called "Collective WILL" that ends with us as a group experiencing some larger cosmic role in life.

The kind of final end that I believe we will meet is based on our decisions and choices made for ourselves by our so called expression of free will. Somehow what we choose to do or not to do ends with us being where things come to an end and and in that last thought it might appear as if we might be fooling ourselves to believe in free will, but as I stated earlier, our free will contributes to a collective will and then that collective will ends with some type of collective action. This is the part that alludes me, but I sure I'm not the only one in that boat.

Thanks for the posting. It's a great topic to catch different thoughts and ideas.

reply to post by v01i0


No I don't. Not in a democracy anyway- In that capacity I only am led to think that I do (have choice and free will)!

Anyway, every concept we come up with has been thought of before by someone else- plucked from the Ether perhaps?

reply to post by v01i0


Based upon your post, I tried to understand what you meant. I believe that with CONSCIOUSNESS comes free will. As long as you are conscious, you can make choices. Only the dead dont.

Thus, so long as any human is alive, he has free will. To urinate or not to. To quit a job or not to. To blame himself or blame others. To rectify mistakes or continue on with mistakes. To kill himself or others or not to.

Free will lays in your consciousness, and that allows you to make choices based upon your education, experiences (and responsibilities to others unless you live alone in this world.)

PS: Just my personal thoughts only. I too,just like anyone else, do have a lot to learn. Learning never ends i guess



[edit on 17-3-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

reply to post by MaxBlack


Very good, and thank you too, for posting a nice reply.

However, I must disagree to a certain degree. You asked me to touch my monitor (which I didn't, because I don't want to touch it with my greasy fingers), so there's my decision. First it appears as an act of free will, but wouldn't a closer look reveal that it is not? I mean, I had greasy fingers, so I didn't touch it because I knew that it would leave a nasty stain. If I would really have a free will, I would do things without thinking the outcome, the results and implications, right? I would've touched it or not regardless of the results, right?

But there always seems to be somekind of driving stimuli for our decisions, be it happiness, the urge, the intelligence or the instict. And I insist to claim, that our actions are never free of those.

-v

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


I know, we make the decisions. But does that mean that the desicion is based on free will, or a stimuli, sometimes hidden to us, sometimes visible? Now I beginning to feel that we are like kybernētēs, the steerman of the ship - we can exert freedom to some degree - mostly in choices (perhaps), but we have to navigate according the winds and the streams of the seas, reefs and shallows.

-v

reply to post by KRISKALI777

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
reply to post by v01i0

 

Anyway, every concept we come up with has been thought of before by someone else- plucked from the Ether perhaps?

I've often thought of that possibility as well. And often I feel like there's nothing new under the sun. Probably the human psychology has not evolved ever since. Maybe these thoughts are like some underlying stream of collective consciousness? Nothing is totally new, but perhaps with a new twist?

For certainty, the question of free will is definately an old question, but I think it haven't been concluded in a satisfactory manner, and maybe it won't ever be.

-v

I read a great quote on free will the other day from a course in miracles...'

"you are not free to choose the curriculum, or even the form in which you will learn it. You are free, however, to decide when you want to learn it. And as you accept it, it is already learned"

I think we are all bound to learn a set of lessons here on this planet and we will learn them one way or another, that we cant choose. How fast or how slow is up to us. The lessons may come in different people and situations, but they will be the same lessons. Ever notice the same personality type keeps coming into your life no matter haw many times you push them away?

The show LOST does a great job of exemplifying this point. They are on 2 separate timelines but they are all "forced" to make similar choices in different realities. The lessons you need for your highest good and spiritual evolution will keep coming at you but free will is you can choose to resist as long as you want. Once you accept it though, you learn and move on.