Quantum Entanglement and our Soul

Wouldn't the theory of quantum entanglement infer that our souls at any given point and time exist elsewhere? I mean, since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.

This opens a whole new thought sequence to what happens after we die, reincarnation, etc.

Well we know from experiments in this that if any material object is ever incontact with another (on the sub atomic scale and electrons etc), that no matter how far apart you take them, if you affect one of them, the other is affected at speeds above the Known constant C (light)

It is not difficult to assume that law works for all the universe ( as those things exhibiting these properties are in fact not solid but packets of energy, just like everything else in the Universe) and so should extend to other "Energies" maybe our souls even.

So it gives credense to the ONE, or the fact we are all trying to get back to the source when initially there was no seperation and just one thing (prior big bang etc.)

So when we are sad, it affects all other beings, happy the same etc.

This modern science finding out and confirming anciant spiritual teachings is very exciting, however be carefull much BS is sprouted about it to.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by ArcAngel


Neither quantum mechanics nor any other scientific field has anything to say about the soul. Science does not describe, or have any implications for, any metaphysical entities proposed by faith-based belief systems. There is no physics of souls. It would be inappropriate to interpret any physical theories as being relevant to souls. Physics is able to give a complete description of our bodies, and you will find no sign of a soul in this description. If anything, physics would imply that a soul does not exist, because there is no physical evidence for one. You cannot ignore this fact and then apply other parts of physics as you choose to any entity which physics as a whole does not recognize the existence of.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Your claims here are a misrepresentation of the facts. Quantum entanglement only disobeys Einstein locality until the point of measurement. Once entangled particles interact with, or are measured by, something outside of the system with which they are entangled the wavefunction is said to "collapse" and their behavior from that point on will no longer be "connected to," or entangled with, whatever particle(s) they have previously been entangled with.


The comfort that we feel with the fuzzy notion that everything is connected in some mysterious way is really only tenible if we allow it to go unchallenged by science. The same is true of the notion of the soul. You are both better off leaving science out of it. The only valid conclusions that you can draw from science about the fuzzy things that we take spiritual comfort in is that their very existance is questionable, to say the least. But, thats okay. Science is not for that. These two parts of our belief systems ought to be kept separate from one another. Science cannot accommodate matters of faith, and faith cannot accommodate matters of science. It is best to not press the issue.

Originally posted by OnceReturned
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

Your claims here are a misrepresentation of the facts.

Lets see how this pans out then lol

Quantum entanglement only disobeys Einstein locality until the point of measurement.

So you agree it does not obey locality until a conscious observation is made of it.

What happens to the rest of universe now that is not being observed.

Should we forget it, becuase it does not fit the "box" we need to put it in, just like the Cat?

Once entangled particles interact with, or are measured by, something outside of the system with which they are entangled the wavefunction is said to "collapse" and their behavior from that point on will no longer be "connected to," or entangled with, whatever particle(s) they have previously been entangled with.

Well yes that makes sense does it not?

As they are now entangled with the new object of observation.

I am sorry that is like saying if something is travelling along x at x1 kph but then is affected by force x2 it then moves at a new velocity of x3 kph. but we will ignore the initial velocity and just take into account the causual factors of the second agent.

Planes would not fly with that sort of reasoning, and you are harping on about fuzzy ideas oh my.

The comfort that we feel with the fuzzy notion that everything is connected in some mysterious way is really only tenible if we allow it to go unchallenged by science.

Unchallenged by science?

Science being non locality proves it... so whats the point?

It is only mysterious as non locality breaks C and has no obvious means of communication and force/energy connecting the two.

The same is true of the notion of the soul. You are both better off leaving science out of it.

What non locality or the soul?

With the soul if one exists would be part of the universe or branes whatever, so surely it is part of the same study as taking place in the sub atomic world.

The only valid conclusions that you can draw from science about the fuzzy things that we take spiritual comfort in is that their very existance is questionable, to say the least.

Indeed it certainly is I agree.

Just like the notion of Mass in any way being solid, or that electron being there, or over there, infact science is showing with things such as dark energy and quantum Mechanics that this "Solid material" world is a lot stranger than any descriptions of a soul or mind.

But, thats okay. Science is not for that. These two parts of our belief systems ought to be kept separate from one another.

As you rightly say Science is primordilly a evolving belief system. That is only the progression of false "facts" being disproven and replaced with ones over time as those beliefs are proven to be wrong, with newer beliefs that hopefully edge ever so slowly towards any real basis on fact.

Science cannot accommodate matters of faith, and faith cannot accommodate matters of science. It is best to not press the issue.

Really?

As said above science is just faith by those who have belief systems, those belief systems are gradually shown to be incorrect, and faith falls away from the belief.

And why is it best to not accommadate the issue?

I think as well it might do you good to broaden your idea of Fuzzy Spirituality, and relaise in the top echolns of both a real sysnthesis is starting to take place, I will just dig out the reference... coffee, book lol.

The Dalai Lama wrote the following and he is making very very regular trips and spending much time alone with those at princetown, MIT etc...

The triple Phd guys there the real scientists dont seem to have a problem accomadting this synthesis.

Surely the ideal of science is to find and explain why and how and where everything works, to quantify it, but in western science just in the material (which has proven to not exist as in particle reality) world.

Is not the aim of religion to find the same, but also to understand the human aspect of it, and its relationship with the whole?

My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.

Source:
The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality.
Here

Kind Regards

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Well, if you want to get into specifics, we can. This is the claim that I have a problem with:

So when we are sad, it affects all other beings, happy the same etc.

This is the claim that is a warm and fuzzy spiritual sort of notion, and it would be nice if it were true. So nice, that you decided you would make some vague reference to some aspect of quantum physics and try to support your claim with science.

Using the phenomenon of quantum entanglement to make the claim that "when we are sad, it affects all other beings" is what is a misrepresentation of the facts. It is a false claim. I'll tell you how I know it's false.

"We"? You and I? Any human? "All other beings"? All of them? Really? Even the dinosaurs? Even your grandparents? Surely, you can't be suggesting that the effects of your mood ripple back into time and effect them, can you?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you meant something more like, "everyone's mood effects all other living beings." And, you want to support this with the notion of entanglement.

Information cannot be transmitted between entangled particles. There is a corrolation, but which particle will be in what state is random initially. So your sadness is not meaningfully transmitted. No information is. Entanglement is the existence of a corrolation which is found over any distance after an initial measurement. No meaningful signal can be communicated, the effect is randomly one way or the other.

Especially no signal about your mood can be communicated. Your mood is determined by neural activity at the level of cells and above. The quantum state of the subatomic constituents of your brain are not effected by your mood. If you are sad, that does not cause the subatmic particles in your brain to also be sad. Even if quantum entanglement transmitted information - which it doesn't - that information would still only be in the form of a positive or negative spin value for some subatomic particle. None of it can be connected with any larger scale states, especially such large and complicated states as mood.

Additionally, enanglement effects are only applicable to a given particle's previous and next interactions. It is entangled with whatever it just interacted with, and it will become entangled with whatever it interacts with next. No entanglement exists between those two particles. If particle A is the previous interaction, and particle B is the particle in question, and particle C is the next interaction, no relationship exists between A and C. Entanglement is not "carried through" from one to the next. You will find no entanglement, and indeed no corrolation at all, between A and C.

So we have these three facts:
1) Entanglement cannot transmit a signal, only a random value.
2) The properties that are relevant to entanglement are of subatomic particles, and have nothing to do with mood.
3) Entanglement effects are only relevant between adjacent particles. The effect is not transmitted along a chain. No entanglement relationship can exists between what is in your brain and what is outside your brain.

None of these facts are consistent with your claim.

reply to post by OnceReturned

Well, if you want to get into specifics, we can. This is the claim that I have a problem with:

So when we are sad, it affects all other beings, happy the same etc.

I used to be very Sceptical of this too.

However it is repeated experiments that mad me think otherwise:

NCJ Number: NCJ 166921
Title: Maharishi Effect: A Model for Social Improvement. Time Series Analysis of a Phase Transition to Reduced Crime in Merseyside Metropolitan Area
Journal: Psychology, Crime & Law Volume:2 Issue:3 Dated

1996) Pages:165-174
Author(s): G D Hatchard ; A J Deans ; K L Cavanaugh ; D W Orme-Johnson
Publication Date: 1996
Pages: 10
Type: Applied research
Origin: Netherlands
Language: English
Annotation: Time series analysis was used to test the hypothesis that the crime rate in Merseyside, England, was reduced by group practice of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's transcendental meditation.
Abstract: Previous research suggested that a phase transition to increased orderliness, evidenced by reduced crime, should occur when group size approaches the square root of 1 percent of the population. In the current research, analysis of Merseyside monthly crime data and coherence group size from 1978 to 1991 showed that a phase transition occurred during March 1988, with a 13.4-percent drop in crime when group size first exceeded the Maharishi Effect threshold. Up to 1992, the Merseyside crime rate remained steady, in contrast to the national crime rate which increased by 45 percent. In 1987, Merseyside had the third highest crime rate of the 11 largest metropolitan areas in England and Wales. By 1992, it had the lowest crime rate, 40 percent below levels predicted by previous behavior of the series. Between 1988 and 1992, 255,000 less crimes in Merseyside occurred than would have been expected had Merseyside continued to follow the national crime trend. Demographic changes, economic variables, police practices, and other factors could not account for the reduced crime rate.

Government Study of Effects

Also:

(1) Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy, Maharishi University of Management, Fairfield, Iowa, USA
(2) Center for International Development and Conflict Management, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland, USA
(3) Department of Humanities and Social Sciences, University of the District of Columbia, Washington, D.C., USA
(4) Planning and Research Division, District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, Crime Research and Statistics Section, Washington, D.C., USA

Abstract This paper reports the results of a prospective experiment in which a group of approximately 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi assembled in Washington, D.C., from June 7 to July 30, 1993. It was hypothesized that levels of violent crime in the District of Columbia would fall substantially during the Demonstration Project, as a result of the group''s effect of increasing coherence and reducing stress in the collective consciousness of the District. A 27-member Project Review Board comprising independent scientists and leading citizens approved the research protocol and monitored the research process. Weekly crime data was derived from database records provided by the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department (DCMPD), which are used in the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Statistical analysis considered the effect of weather variables, daylight, historical crime trends and annual patterns in the District of Columbia, as well as trends in neighboring cities. Consistent with previous research, levels of homicides, rapes and assaults (HRA crimes) correlated with average weekly temperature. Robberies approximately followed an annually recurring cycle. Time series analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, showed that HRA crimes dropped significantly during the Demonstration Project, corresponding with increases in the size of the group; the maximum decrease was 23.3%

Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, D.C.: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June--July 1993

Further:

Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June-July 1993
John S. Hagelin, Maxwell V. Rainforth, David W. Orme-Johnson, Kenneth L. Cavanaugh, Charles N. Alexander, Susan F. Shatkin, John L. Davies, Anne O. Hughes, and Emanuel Ross:

SNIP -

Based on the results of the study, the steady state gain (long-term effect) associated with a permanent group of 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs was calculated as a 48% reduction in HRA crimes in the District of Columbia.

The Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy

You might find this interesting in google Scholar on this issue:

Referenced Double Blind Studies Worldwide.

Enjoy.

Kind Regards,

Elf
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[edit on 11-3-2010 by MischeviousElf]