A (not so) simple question about the goodness of God and evil

I've heard that evil is the absence of good, so God didn't create evil, it just sort of happened. And I've been hearing a lot of that, a recent ATS thread I think.

Anyways, I was thinking about this and it doesn't make sense to me. Supposing this is correct that would mean there can be a absolute evil but no absolute good. 0 K is absolute but it can always be 1 degree warmer etc..

I mean it's behind our comprehension to imagine a infinitely good being, and it might not even be possible based on out current understanding of ∞.

We could take this to other levels as well. If God is truly ∞ good then wouldn't that be implying God is infinitely powerful (power is good)? Combining ∞ goodness and ∞ powerfulness would produce a being that could only make good things and make anything (the universe).

So my question is: If evil is 0 and good is ∞, and supposing that God is infinitely good (and powerful) then:

If the power and overall qualities of evil are infinitesimally small compared to good, so why do we see what we see in our world?

*side note*

This isn't about free will, because assuming that an infinity intelligent being would know the course of everything, free will is an illusion.

Originally posted by afterschoolfun
If God is truly ∞ good then wouldn't that be implying God is infinitely powerful (power is good)? Combining ∞ goodness and ∞ powerfulness would produce a being that could only make good things and make anything (the universe).

The gnostic Christ said it was foolish to try and understand something like "God," and that such a thing/being was so completely beyond our ability to comprehend that it would be best to not even consider such a thing existing.

And in that case, the best thing for us to do is recognize that existence is a terrible, horrible, meaningless thing, full of suffering, and as far as we're concerned the only thing we can really do is try not to make things even more horrible for ourselves. And the best way to do that is try not to screw each other over. Be nice to one another and don't be so quick to judge.

"Good" and "evil" are just words, and have nothing to do with any sort of infinite supernatural superbeing. They're human concepts. How you perceive good and evil depends on your perspective. For the most part, the best we can hope for in life is to avoid as much pain as we can, and try to get a little tiny bit of enjoyment from it before it all ends horribly. That's "good." And anybody who stops you from doing that is "evil." Except that it all ends up to mean exactly squat in the end, so the best thing to do is try to cooperate rather than fight. At least it makes things a little better while we're alive.

At Death, however, all bets are off.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Blue Shift]

reply to post by Blue Shift


Very true. I was considering not considering this but I was just curious what the people that use this argument would say.

Originally posted by afterschoolfun
I've heard that evil is the absence of good, so God didn't create evil, it just sort of happened. And I've been hearing a lot of that, a recent ATS thread I think.

According to the Old Testament, God did create evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Originally posted by afterschoolfun
Very true. I was considering not considering this but I was just curious what the people that use this argument would say.

From my experience, people who truly believe that "God" is good, and that evil is "against God," generally think that evil is created primarily when mankind (or angels) uses its free will to go against God's will.

Of course, it makes no sense if anything is possible for an infinitely powerful and omniscient being. If God is the dealer, and he only gives you 52 cards to choose from out of the deck, he can't very well expect to get angry and violent if you happen to pick Three of Hearts, for instance. It's his deck, and he's the one offering the cards. So much for "free will."

People who think God has anything to do with good or evil just don't see how they're egotistically projecting themselves into the equation.

Originally posted by afterschoolfun
So my question is: If evil is 0 and good is ∞, and supposing that God is infinitely good (and powerful) then:

If the power and overall qualities of evil are infinitesimally small compared to good, so why do we see what we see in our world?

Someone with a ∞ mind would be able to see 'evil' backwards as 'live' and know there is something good about that.

To me, evil is one way to further comprehend life itself. We can use the symbols of religions and various books in order to help 'compress' information that we want to keep in our brains, because ∞ is a lot of information. It is so much information to decompress ∞ amounts of information that would not be good.

evil is incomplete-anything incomplete-----god is complete. everything complete in a being--- god did not create evil, for evil is a decision or action from an individual free thinking being, evil becomes sin in life

It would seem to me that the absence of good would merely be indifference. Look at it this way:

Moral = Good
Immoral = Evil
Amoral = Indifferent

I believe that would be the most simplistic way to look at it.

If the power and overall qualities of evil are infinitesimally small compared to good, so why do we see what we see in our world?

Perhaps a better way to represent the forces of good and evil would be a number scale where -100 represented absolute evil, 0 represented absolute middle ground (indifference?) and +100 represented absolute good.

if a man is a collection of water, a few minerals,and some electrical current , and is born a being,moving, pro-creating--living soul--then how much greater is god with the whole universe as an action??what being is created by the whole universe???

reply to post by afterschoolfun


I think the most important question to ask is if evil really exists at all. What if god doesn't exist? Does evil still exist? Or are we just biological machines that have bad things happen to them. That there is no real external force such as evil like defined in the Bible.

If so, then what is it? Where does it come from if God doesn't exist? From man? From something else?

Another important question to ask is, if evil still exists if God doesn't, then does it still come from the same place? For example, it would be foolish to say that if god doesn't exist then evil exists because of what man does, but if god does exist then evil must come from some place else? Wouldn't it still be coming from the same place, man?

Let's say evil does come from Satan or demons or God himself. That means if God isn't real then evil can't exist either because where would it come from then? So if we believe that, then the answer to the question does evil really exist becomes a very important question.

If we believe however that evil exists because of the actions of man then why would we assume that would be different if God existed or didn't exist? Either way evil comes from man regardless if God exists or not.

Or we can believe that evil doesn't really exist at all and things just happen. Like when a mother puts her baby in the microwave and cooks it. Is it really evil? Or is her brain just broken and it's something that just happened?

The first step is decide if real evil really exists and if so then we must define what it is. Until we do that we can never understand it. Then once we do that we must answer the real question.

If evil exists and God doesn't, then where does evil come from? Who's fault is it in other words?

EDIT: Also, just because God knows everything doesn't mean there isn't any free will. Being smart enough to predict the choices one makes, does not mean they didn't have a choice. A lot of people state that, but it's based on false logic. If free will really exists or not, I don't know, but just because God can predict what choice one will make, does not necessarily mean they didn't have a choice.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by tinfoilman]

Evil is simply a choice.

Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There you go

cheers

Originally posted by afterschoolfun
I've heard that evil is the absence of good, so God didn't create evil, it just sort of happened. And I've been hearing a lot of that, a recent ATS thread I think.

Anyways, I was thinking about this and it doesn't make sense to me. Supposing this is correct that would mean there can be a absolute evil but no absolute good. 0 K is absolute but it can always be 1 degree warmer etc..

I mean it's behind our comprehension to imagine a infinitely good being, and it might not even be possible based on out current understanding of ∞.

We could take this to other levels as well. If God is truly ∞ good then wouldn't that be implying God is infinitely powerful (power is good)? Combining ∞ goodness and ∞ powerfulness would produce a being that could only make good things and make anything (the universe).

So my question is: If evil is 0 and good is ∞, and supposing that God is infinitely good (and powerful) then:

If the power and overall qualities of evil are infinitesimally small compared to good, so why do we see what we see in our world?

*side note*

This isn't about free will, because assuming that an infinity intelligent being would know the course of everything, free will is an illusion.

First of all, OP, you're making quite a few assumptions. Or at least, the assumptions you are making, are "OUT THERE". First example, you say power equals good. I'm sure we've all heard about how power is the all-corruptable force that no man can resist. So perhaps it is a bit of a paradox...
Please keep in mind, I'm not attacking your overall idea (I'm not actually sure what it is), I just noticed some details that I couldn't commit myself to in order to play along with your thought experiment. So, not dissin anyone here. I think it's great to think of things in different ways. But maybe there's some other things to think about that I could bring to your attention. And maybe not. Either way, I'm this far, so...
As I was saying, it may be a bit of a paradox because God is supposed to be all powerful (is that how it is quoted from religious texts? He is "all-or-infinitely powerful"?) and all-good. Yet power is supposed to be the one thing that no man can handle without corrupting it. Hence the reason we no longer have kings and queens ruling over us. And the reason the president can't do certain things without congress, and why we vote. Or at least that's how it's supposed to work. So, perhaps an answer to this is that God really IS all-good otherwise He would not be able to be all-powerful without being corrupted...? Is that getting anywhere? Don't know.
I also don't know if I agree that "evil is the absence of good". Is good the absence of evil? Is there no middle? Can I just mind my own business for a moment and not be doing or thinking or being anything good or bad? Can anyone/anything do that? I'm NOT saying your wrong. I'm just provoking thought. Imagine as I'm typing, I witness my neighbors dog take a dump (in it's own yard). Now, nobody has stepped in it, so it's not evil or anything like that, (just yet). But is it doing anything good. We know now that all matter is conscious (don't we?) so it has to be good or evil right? Over time, it disintegrates and fertilizes the land underneath it and around it. Therefore the dog-turd was good. And I hope nobody takes this as sarcastic. I was just trying to take an arbitrary action and see if it could lead to being good or evil... Anyway, that was just from reading about two of your statements, and I'm spent. Not saying I contributed or detracted from your idea. Interesting thoughts though. Definitely passed some time waitin for the next crazy thing to happen. Good job stimulating minds! Se la vie!

[edit on 8-3-2010 by doctor j and inmate c5779]

To me, it is very simple. God is everything. He is good, he is evil, he is dark, he is light, he is in everything and everything is of him.