Facing the Shadow: Good or Bad?

Carl Jung talked at length about our shadow archetype. The shadow represents our primal and often thought to be sinful nature. He believed we all had a shadow and the more we try to repress it the denser it will be and worse it will weigh us down. So let me ask you the following for a good open discussion...

1. Do you think we all have a shadow as Jung describes?

2. If we DO have one should we face and embrace our darker sides? To what extent? Can we face it without becoming dangerous?

-Kyo

Great topic! I think we should definitely explore our darker side. Why? Because it is a part of us. Most of us were taught that a lot of our natural instincts are, in fact, sin. Jealousy, lust, hate, pride, etc etc.
But are they? Don't we all experience these emotions from time to time? I think it is better to embrace them, than to deny them. By admitting to ourselves we have this darker side, atleast we're being honest. It can be quite challenging to explore the dark side. I did and I learned a lot about myself. After years of denial, I finally realized this forbidden dark side is nothing more than a part of me. My other half. And true strength and self acceptance can be found in acknowledging that and accepting that. To integrate your darker side with the rest of you, like yin/yang.
Some religions label this darker side as sinful, we should repent, shake of our sinful nature. But that is not natural.
By the way, I think denial of our darker nature is a greater risk of snapping or doing something evil, than being in touch with it.

Not really heard about what you are talking about but the concept is easy enough to understand.

Reality holds both negative and positive elements at the same time, in everything. If you focus on one, whether you consider that focus good or bad, you are still focusing on one or the other and that focus is like energy feeding that negative or positive element.

So if we focus on suppressing our negative sides, then we are doing nothing more than feeding it.

I think the answer is pretty simple. Balance. At the same time, how we each decide to deal with it is what makes us unique and different than the next person.

Good answers from both of you!

Yes balance is the key IMO and that is what Jung relayed to us. He felt by facing and embracing your shadow you become balanced. The key was to not slip too far to the moral OR evil side of your spectrum

-Kyo

Of course Jung was fascinated and studied alchemy. I have stressed the use of tried and tested techniques of psycho-spiritual development. Sadly the Jungians organisations in London do not actually approve of practical psycho-spiritual development.

You can begin to evoke and confront absorb the shadow. Once you are working from a position of humanitarian and love of the light. Of course once one sector is assimilated as it is never banished there is the next as well as the keeping of everything in check. If we go back to the xtian monks one of the problems they had to deal with was the need to banish the shadow –which gave it even more strength. But that is the problem of Manichean dualism.

I once heard a psychology professor use the phrase, "What we resist, persists." While not necessarily referring to Jung, I would say this phrase could apply to the concept of the dark side.

Case in point. For a long time I feared death. I tried not to think about it, tried to ignore the thoughts, etc. But they wouldn't stop, and finally I gave up and examined my fears. Took a really hard look at it, wrestled with it, and eventually....reached a point where I was okay with the concept of death. But if I'd kept trying to ignore it, I never would have reached the current peace I now have.

I don't know if I would call this "embracing" the shadow, but I do believe we need to examine our feelings and fears. After all, feelings hold no moral value. Anger is not a bad feeling; nor is it a good feeling. What we choose to do when we are angry is worthy of judgement, but not the fact that we feel anger.

I believe a lot of our society attempts to supress natural feelings. "Don't feel depressed, get over it, cheer up," etc. Whereas it might actually be more helpful to the person to examine what they are feeling, determine the reason why, and work from there.

reply to post by Tiger5


I think you are right. I think we avoid technigues that are now considered too fantastical and 'out there'. Maybe we should embrace things we used in the past with success.

I like your thought process. We embrace it by starting first from our moral side. Good notes

reply to post by smyleegrl


You and I are much alike in that. I like to use myself as an open book so I will relay this short story.

Recently I had an epiphany. I too was terrified to die and had horrible seperation anxiety with those I loved. What occured to me was that all of the important family figures to me (save for my mother) have all left me prematurely via death. It should have occured to me ages ago that these deaths happened in my formative years when I was vulnerable. Suddenly it hit me that I never forgave these people for leaving me. Recently this all struck me. I forgave them all and I am so much happier now. I am content. I embraced who I am to include the dark side of me and suddenly I am finiding alot of my anxieties are melting away

-Kyo

Yes, i believe in the shadow as Jung describes. Take a look into the story of Buddah; to reach Nirvana he had to face his "demons". I myself have done extensive meditation to face my own demons. Merely acknowledging them helps to maintain a more pure thought and action process; for me. Admittingly, though I struggle with the concept of GOOD and BAD, facing the demons blurs these lines, calling into question many things. If everything has beauty then maybe terrible things do to. We may be appauled by what others do, but to them it is beautiful or has it's beauty. YES face the demons within you first if you with the conquer the demons outside yourself.

Actually, Jung held the view that the Shadow cannot be totally confronted without the help of the opposite sex archetype - the animus for women and the anima for men. In plainer words, I will forgive my partner a bunch of things I will not to myself. He allowed that people that lived a solitary life, like monks, can face and intergate their shadows without this help, but that it is much more difficult.
Just think of the weirder aspects of fantasy that advanced Tibetan monks have to expose themselves to under strict surveillance of a guru - like imagining goddesses surrounded with skulls, and having sex with corpses etc. Or the spirits boiling and eating your flesh in the traditional shamanism of Siberia.

If I am a thin, nonviolent intellectual with a generally peace-loving approach, my Shadow will be perhaps a violent maffioso, who enjoys porn and Fascist propaganda, likes to flex his muscular power and curses all the time.

Everyone can work with this archetype - if you have an ego, you WILL have a shadow, which is simply the opposite of the values you have grown into.

One reason why the opposite sex can tame your shadow easier is because most people identify with one sex and have tried to be that way most of their lives. The Shadow is about what you did NOT want to become. And partly, so is an attractive member of the opposite sex. The difference is that your personal shadow is not an integral person, whereas your partner is one (preferably).

There is a collective shadow in Jungian studies too, usually a group projection. E.g. Islam is the current shadow-projection of a lot of Americans. Jung witnessed the dehumanization of Jews by the Nazis, so he held a negative opinion on the use of any collective shadow archetype. He described in detail that the evil caricatures of Jewry provided by Nazi propagandists actually resembled the darker, suppressed side of ordinary German life and it was not particularly related to European Jewry.

In the same way, blind belief and aggression meet in the well-known collective shadow figure of the Islamic Terrorist in the West. It is time to ask ourselves perhaps, how are blind belief and aggression part of OUR collective shadow.

Shadow integration is one of the most difficult tasks in Jungian work.

Integration means one must never simply obey the shadow (I cannot act as a violent maffioso once every blue moon), but one must always recognize it and keep it in mind, and search for some sort of higher truth that unites good and evil. Good and evil should never unite at a lower level than true transcendence, as he emphasized.

Already a good relationship will solve some of this problem. Jung also advised that people work with archetypal journeys and legends, stories that feel relevant to them, and analyze their dreams for collective and individual symbols.
Astrology is another means towards shadow integration, one that he was first among Western psychologists to recognize.

reply to post by KyoZero
This Shadow concept of Jung's bugs me. It's meaningful in a bar situation...beer and idle chatter. His ideas of synchronicity and collective unconscious are way more intriguing.

If the person we detest the most is an aspect of our inner shadow...where does it leave us? Near enough everyone detests the murderers, con-men, politicians and liars of this world. IMO it's hard to accept these guys as shadows of ourselves.

It seems a slippery idea that what we hate is what we are. In a sense it invalidates and diminishes our concepts of what is wrong and what is right. If we see a person bully a victim and despise the bully...it shouldn't be taken as an indication that we ARE the bully. Our offence at the bully's actions can be honest, genuine and without the sly implication that we want to BE the bully.

I genuinely detest and resent the actions of some people because of what 'they' are...not what I am.

reply to post by KyoZero


it is a very smart question you gave here, thanks for leting me then expose my thoughts about this issue

shadow is the dark representation of ego as oneself existance gaining a free assertion of living state

the sense of that is evil like because of truth that i would say as i see it applying in that situation, but you are perfectly right in suggesting how by embracing that shadow as a right of being you alive too that would benefit to all your existence facts and objective reality life of your means realisations

in truth, the living truth is always meaning superiority as else while staying itself, in truth the living cannot be truth source when it means itself life, yourself life must be a simple result fact that you dont even have to accept or can from what you moved to else objective superiority

now the problem that made the shadow rise, is that there is two sense of superiority else, there is the sense of backwards meaning the nothing void primar to existence consicousness that men usually are representing that drive truth as objective rejections
and there is the sense forwards meaning evolutions of certainty facts to living true one cell that women are usually representing as objective source

so there were before and after two different conceptions that are the base of truth life from that absolute reality life in void between them, truth life was the abstraction of absolute reality life facts which led to conscious first in void life of absolute center life

so those two different conceptions that i call before and after didnt know about truth being their sources before becoming mister before conception after madam one
but what i mean actually is the fact certainty that objective is always the source of subjective, so truth was the source of both at different time

that is why the point is that if you realize objective truth all the conflicts would be solved, only accepting that the source is always truth that is alive so the consequence would be obvious immediately

the conception before of nothing itself awareness, was that living source of awareness meaning to justify freedom superiority of nothingness as itself awareness life, but meaning freedom superiority of nothingness superior to itself awareness existence and its freedom since it is just a nothing of

now what i say is that surely truth is the source of that conception that mister before conception dont know, an objective fact certainty of void is the source of that conception sense awareness life

then truth went to see that certainty fact of void is the source of positive always evolutions in absolute realities ways of life, how certainty out of freedom living is always then to superiority as else more living source

so here the conception of after madam was out, so that cell true living detached itself from certainty fact awareness whole, meaning not itself life but superiority of certainty life objectively from what it could be nothing there but positive to

so reality truth absolutely between those different sense conceptions, was to say that living is always not for itself life but for superiority as else wether existance superiority else that men mean or life superiority else that women mean

now both are wrong because not aware of truth being their both sources, that is how consciousness develop to reach us of truth awareness life

meaning superiority as else to justify living drive, is the inferiority of not knowing the truth being its source, that is why conscious appear after absolute reality of truth was alive in void, it was the next sense to be aware of truth being the source of both and all

so each awareness energy there in void could become true living one

superiority as else is meaning truth actually objectively, and when that awareness is know then ouf the relief, there is nothing to justify before or after superiority it is just meaning seeking truth justification as superiority existence life

when you know that you know everything im joking, but i mean you know then more realistically how you are true then too which means that you can love yourself as you want as superiority life true if you proove that you are the source of that absolutely something that would evolve in positive objective truth life

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by KyoZero

 

This Shadow concept of Jung's bugs me. It's meaningful in a bar situation...beer and idle chatter. His ideas of synchronicity and collective unconscious are way more intriguing.

If the person we detest the most is an aspect of our inner shadow...where does it leave us? Near enough everyone detests the murderers, con-men, politicians and liars of this world. IMO it's hard to accept these guys as shadows of ourselves.

It seems a slippery idea that what we hate is what we are. In a sense it invalidates and diminishes our concepts of what is wrong and what is right. If we see a person bully a victim and despise the bully...it shouldn't be taken as an indication that we ARE the bully. Our offence at the bully's actions can be honest, genuine and without the sly implication that we want to BE the bully.

I genuinely detest and resent the actions of some people because of what 'they' are...not what I am.

Yes but the one tragic thing that the genocidal nutters of the world like Stalin , Hitler and Pol Pot have taught us is that perfectly ordinary people from good homes are capable of murder, rape, and most other evils. I am not getting personal but perhaps what you recognise is your own baser instincts.

reply to post by Tiger5


yes but the interesting point in recognizing your instincts is that you hate yourself not that you love it, that is why surely lies were on lights to run out of yourself life

and that is how who decide to embrace themselves lives because they are intelligent conceptions or because they love truth aware of, well those are the selfish that religions want to call evil ones

1. YES

2. YES

To answer your question. To see your shadow for what it truly is and how it helps you understand yourself more.

Think about the time you were at your most pain, your worst heartbreak when you cried and cried. Only then you began to start and see how much you really loved in the first place. You conquer your shadow when you realise your about to experience more love, when it comes. And then soon as you experience this it goes away, and you feel free. Its like knowing there is allways the light at the end of the tunnel, and then your in the tunnel before you know it, that you allways were there. You begin to enjoy every moment that you feel warm blessings of love. Then more and more time with joy, and love.

With enough pain, eventually people will BREAK LIMIT, and they will actually start to FEEL peace and love. It is this that you realise how important your shadow, and all life truly is. And all along you knew your shadow was rooting for you. Wanting you to set yourself free from yourself.

Many many blessings from Mother Goddess.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by DarkCyrus]

reply to post by imans



Hello friend

Perhaps English is not your first language. SO I may have misread your post.

I think I agree with you. A necessary dislike of your self is necessary for spiritual growth. Those who are fully content do not grow as they have no need to .

Do you know what the sufis say on the matter? Can you say something about it.

I would like to hear

Peace.


[edit on 8-3-2010 by Tiger5]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Tiger5]

reply to post by KyoZero


Go evil.

Go all the way evil...go evil early...go evil often...

There was some quote of Burroughs that I have actually seriously employed in life with good results...but I only remember the paraphrase, that you should go ahead and quickly do the bad thing now that you are going to break down and do in the end anyway...

What I have found by doing this, amazingly, is, I go right ahead and sell-out, and then I find out, wow, I actually didn't want to sell-out, and once I get past the mistake and into the new correct behavior I am a lot less brittle in that mended-over place where the break occurred...and I didn't waste a lot of time stretching out the temptation miniseries...

But this advice ain't for everybody...if there's two kinds of people I'm usually the other one, don't try this at home kids

A practical exercise puts us allin a different place. I decided to give up the hate. ANd was getting ahead by having more peace in my life. A lot of people got quite upset that I was letting go of such human stuff. They did not understand me nor i them....

I move on and got a few better friends..

But it was difficult. Why should we do that. It is outside of our comfort zone...

Just thinking

reply to post by nine-eyed-eel


Amazing perspective. I believe your right that it takes some very dark choices to realise what we really wanted, and what we really need. And sometimes to realise that we are sick, and then we can actually treat ourselves, and become more like we really are.

The biggest thing for me was fear of being alone, when I stopped feeling fear from that, I never felt alone again. Sometimes what we think we need is actually not true, until we do it, then we realise what we do need.

In the end, we are all chasing more than we need.

Also Evil is doing things that go against who YOU are, not others. Dark is not evil!

Stay Clean.

reply to post by Tiger5


Great post~

I too have done this. I have never felt better.

Sometimes we are raised in an environment that is outside of our comfort zone and once we step outside of ourself, we begin to create a new comfort zone intune with who we are now. If you learn to let go, almost everything starts to feel right, and love just pumps to and fro.

All you have to do is hold out your hand and stand by us.

Good luck.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by DarkCyrus]

Tough questions since my last post.
So...
The answer is difficult to put into words. But I can feel it. I have been wrestling with Jung's ideas since more than 25 years.
When one judges the shadow, it gets energized the wrong way. Surely love is what you experience when your judgment dissolves but
1. you cannot force it
2. mental structures should also be transformed.
So the solution is close to an occult one, as Jung himself wasn't far from the occult. Despite all his protestations.

When I was young, my mom was battling a shadow of political violence. This is understandable in Eastern Europe. Every year around the anniversary of the crushed 1956 revolution where she was a young participant she got a serious depression and wore black for days. Whenever we were talking about the world in general it left a deep imprint on me that she was fearing and detesting violence and alcoholism the most, and politically motivated violence above all. This was somewhat suppressed so only sensitive people got at it. At the surface she had problems relating to men even though she was an extraordinarily beautiful and talented woman and many men appreciated her. Also, sometimes this came out as a false sense of humor - she just wanted to laugh at the entire world at inappropriate moments.

My first wife was similar in some respects. Not as repressed though.

So I realized I had to pass the same type of shadow. I made a conscious effort over the years, and my world view changed. It was no longer important to me the way it was for her, and actually later on she changed too. (She does a lot of hindu meditation and is an artist).

For me the turning point came when I no longer resisted the idea of reincarnation and started to study an occult branch of Indian astrology. My teacher repeatedly pointed out that I had been a person in many lives who abused power. So I know all about it and reject it too violently - even the normal authority I should have in my family.

Now I think enlightenment can exist in the same universe as very hellish things.