Let's solve chemtrails!

Theres always a few things I was curious about chemtrails but never knew where to look to find out.

So I need your help ATS!

Has anyone created a map correlating military/commercial air space and altitude to real time flight data to see if these 'contrails' are showing up...

1. In military or commercial airspace
2. At the correct flight path for said aircraft
3. If it was the intended route or was diverted
4. Wind trajectory to account for the spread over the population.
5. etc, etc.

I'm sure most of us know contrails occur at a specific height. Whereas chemtrails don't.

So why has no one ever, EVER (that I know of) made a simple map showing these few things?

Originally posted by mryanbrown
So why has no one ever, EVER (that I know of) made a simple map showing these few things?

Because there is no such thing as chemtrails.... they are just contrails that some conspiracy theorists like to call chemtrails.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by mryanbrown
So why has no one ever, EVER (that I know of) made a simple map showing these few things?

Because there is no such thing as chemtrails.... they are just contrails that some conspiracy theorists like to call chemtrails.

Exhaust vapour trails or contrails usually occur above 8000 metres (26,000 feet). where the temperature is below -40°C (-40°F). (Source: Wikipedia)

Please explain every contrail occuring well below this point. Thaaaanks.

"I can't, because I don't know. I spread my opinion as if it is divine or scientific fact. Because my ego tells me that my opinion is the only one of merit. So I ignore the evidence."

[edit on 8-3-2010 by mryanbrown]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by mryanbrown]

reply to post by THe OBLoNGS


I feel special. His first post of nonsense was to crap my thread.

reply to post by mryanbrown


G'day mrbryanbrown

There is no such thing as a chemtrail.

Fortunately that means you do not have to worry about that issue any more.

For reference I recommend the excellent work of OzWeatherman.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by mryanbrown
Please explain every contrail occuring well below this point.

Please show examples of contrails appearing under those conditions.

For a better idea on contrail formation have a look at
profhorn.aos.wisc.edu...

please post to any chem/contrails that form below 20k feet. i would be happy to show you why they formed.

contrails are certainly not confined to above a certain height as the atmosphere varies greatly dependant upon current conditions. as far as cris cross patterns are concerned, contrails move with the upper air if they are persistant. in areas near airports with heavy air traffic, you could see a lot of contrails in the right atmospheric conditions.

and lastly...

here is a bit of common sense that should be at least the beginnings of some understanding as to why chemtrails are most likely not real.

when spraying anything in the atmosphere, you would need to do it in the lower troposphere in order to ensure that as little dispersment of the material as possible and also to ensure accurate placement. upper atmospheric winds can be quite gusty, in excess of 150kts, and can vary greatly in the vertical. also. if yo are seeing "chemtrails" that are persistant in the atmosphere, this is indicative of frozen particulates (most probably frozen water vapor) that are suspended. this is not conducive to any kind of precipitable effect that would be needed to effect things on the surface. this is why you dont see rain from cirrus clouds, and very rarely do you even see it from any mid etage clouds (with the exception of a nimbostratus, but it precipitates when the bases are in the lower etage, and also in the high deserts you can see precipitable cloud bases in the mid etage, but that is due to altitude)

so show me some pics, and i will give you some weather observing 101 on how to tell from a picture how high a cloud is based with a degree of accuracy, and why the cloud looks like it does.


-Wx

Can we put this as solved, then?

Perhaps a concise thread is needed so we can point chemtrail believers in that direction instead of repeating ourselves? I vote for Oz to author (another) one.

I was curious about the chemtrail conspiracy myself, and started a thread challenging anyone to explain a feasible way to actually use air dispersal of a chemical agent.

I don't think my thread went anywhere, and I don't believe this one will either. I'm not going to say that that means the entire theory is bunk, but I have seen no proof as yet that would lead me to believe chemtrails are an intentional way of dispersing.

None of you are offering anything of substance. Even from a scientific standpoint. All of you want to offer anectdotal theories that coincide with accepted physics.

I'm perfectly aware that if a contrail forms below the typical height there are possibilities such as the temperature and pressure matching to produce the desired effect.

You can toss around your opinion all you want, or anectdotal evidence. It doesn't PROVE you are right simply because you can theoretically explain a situation given less than exact data.

If you take 1 particular trail...

Do you know the full weather conditions? Do you know the altitude? You are aware of ZERO real data surrounding any given instance. Because as far as I can tell. No ones actually correlated real data to any scenario.

Whether you are an antogonist or protagonist to the chemtrail ideology. Neither side has offered any real substantial data from an actual event.

It's all conjecture and opinion on either side.

But really. I deeply appreciate all the responses as generalized as, I'm right and you're wrong because I said so.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by mryanbrown]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by mryanbrown]

Originally posted by mryanbrown
If you take 1 particular trail...
.....Do you know the full weather conditions? Do you know the altitude? You are aware of ZERO real data surrounding any given instance. Because as far as I can tell. No ones actually correlated real data to any scenario...

G'day mrryanbrown

We have done exactly that many times with the help of OzWeatherman.

Once again I refer you to his extremely informative threads.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Once again I refer you to his extremely informative threads.

And I refer you to "Shambayalamayahumblaya"

Does that mean you have any idea what I'm talking about?

I'm going to make a blunt assumption. But atleast I'm adult enough to admit it's an assumption.

1. Anyone who has posted to this thread simply dismissing the notion are making assumptions that I'm pro chemtrail theory.

2. You have this imaginary persona that you are intellectually elite as your replies note. Despite offering nothing more than hearsay and your opinion.

3. That I know who Oz is. Because apparently he's some great and magical ATS user I should have had the foresight to have been aware of.


I'd like to once again restate my original question. Perhaps a little simpler.

HAS ANYONE CORRELATED REAL DATA IN A MAP THAT IS VISIBLE TO THE HUMAN EYE.

So please. Actually refer me TO something. Not a name. You elitists. Glad even ATS has them.

Originally posted by mryanbrown
None of you are offering anything of substance. Even from a scientific standpoint. All of you want to offer anectdotal theories that coincide with accepted physics.

I'm perfectly aware that if a contrail forms below the typical height there are possibilities such as the temperature and pressure matching to produce the desired effect.

You can toss around your opinion all you want, or anectdotal evidence. It doesn't PROVE you are right simply because you can theoretically explain a situation given less than exact data.

If you take 1 particular trail...

Do you know the full weather conditions? Do you know the altitude? You are aware of ZERO real data surrounding any given instance. Because as far as I can tell. No ones actually correlated real data to any scenario.

Whether you are an antogonist or protagonist to the chemtrail ideology. Neither side has offered any real substantial data from an actual event.

It's all conjecture and opinion on either side.

But really. I deeply appreciate all the responses as generalized as, I'm right and you're wrong because I said so.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by mryanbrown]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by mryanbrown]

Actually, from a single photograph i can tell you the type of cloud, the current weather conditions, the height of the cloud, and all with a good degree of accuracy. you see this is my job.

I am an aviation forecaster. I deal with clouds and contrails all the time.

what i am trying to do is to get you to post a picture referencing the contrails that you are claiming have formed below 20k feet.

as far as your military flights. most military flights will follow the same paths as civilian ones unless they are operating in a restricded operating area. and most of those that i have dealt with have been over the ocean and are not likely to be a candidate for what you are getting at.

all aircraft, military and civilian are subject to the same principals of flight, and are under the same FAA guidelines. There are some further guidelines implemented with military flights, so they are even more constrained.

considering that the chemtrail theory is supposed to be a secret thing. i would say that it is not very likely that you would find supporting evidence with flight planning and the like. i would imagine those type of flights would be without a transponder and definately not on file.

i commend the idea of data collection, but this just doesn't seem to be a viable means of collecting evidence to support your theory.

so i say again. please reference a circumstance of chemtrails below 20k feet. please dont use youtube or photobucket as i am at work and unable to access those servers.

-Wx

reply to post by mryanbrown


mrryanbrown

I'm sorry you're not finding my replies to your liking.

I'll try harder.....

Here is a link to the profile page of OzWeatherman:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is one of his threads that should help you:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It also appears we have another meteorlogical expert in here helping us.....WX4caster.

I think you might also find it helpful to review his info.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

reply to post by wx4caster


I don't even knew where to begin. So let's add some history. I'm an Arizona native. And growing up as a child in the 80's (not so long ago), I seen jet engines in the sky and military aircraft.

We have a large international airport and the elite Luke Air Force Base.
I remember growing up and seeing contrails. They aren't news to me. What is news is that despite a now highly diminished number of flights going out due to the economy is very similar to that of the early 90's. So roughly the same type of jet engine technology, the same frequency of flights. And the same commercial airspace. I have lived in the same location for 15 years.

Yet only now in the past few years have these events become exponentially more visible. I'm not saying these are chemical based. I'm not saying theres an apparent conspiracy behind them.

I am noting that it is my opinion the frequency increase of these has absolutely minimal impact from society.

I am alleging that the official theory doesn't add up except on paper. And people infer their belief in a theory to correlate real conditions to fit that accepted belief.

Have you ever thought maybe it has nothing to do with chemicals? Or with eugenics? That maybe the climate is cooling and these are happening more frequently because the conditions for them to occur are happening in locations they weren't present in before?

You want a picture you can rationalize?

Picture dated: February 15th, 2000


"Oh that was just the Blue Angels flying by." WRONG!

NAVY BLUE ANGELS 2000 AIR SHOW SCHEDULE
www.defense.gov...
"Jan.2-Mar.10 (Pre-season training at NAF El Centro, Calif.)"

So why were there so many aircraft flying side by side at once?

Please sir I would like to know your opinion as to:

1. Weather conditions
2. Cloud altitude
3. Chemtrail altitude
4. Is it possible to determine N/S/E/W and time of day? (I'm serious on this one, I wouldn't mind learning)


Also, I hope you get paid more than local news forecasters and meteorologists who decided not to easily write this off in the following segment:

reply to post by mryanbrown


The only way to prove chemtrails exist is:

1. Take a direct sample from an alleged chemtrail, and analyse it.

Until then all you have is conjecture. Contrails can form at any height if the conditions are right. You don't seem to even understand what contrails are, and yet you are positive chemtrails exist. That is preposterous.

reply to post by mryanbrown


It seems you want people to prove that every contrails is exactly that - a contrail? No, that's not how the world works. You have to demonstrate that even a single contrail is actually a chemtrail, which you and every other chemtrail-believer has yet to do.

This is getting pathetic. All chemtrailers, without exception, have shown a massive disregard for critical thinking. You seem to be among their number.

reply to post by davesidious


Heh.
(Sinister)Line 2...

Originally posted by mryanbrown
reply to post by wx4caster

 

I don't even knew where to begin. So let's add some history. I'm an Arizona native. And growing up as a child in the 80's (not so long ago), I seen jet engines in the sky and military aircraft.

We have a large international airport and the elite Luke Air Force Base.
I remember growing up and seeing contrails. They aren't news to me. What is news is that despite a now highly diminished number of flights going out due to the economy is very similar to that of the early 90's. So roughly the same type of jet engine technology, the same frequency of flights. And the same commercial airspace. I have lived in the same location for 15 years.

Yet only now in the past few years have these events become exponentially more visible. I'm not saying these are chemical based. I'm not saying theres an apparent conspiracy behind them.

I am noting that it is my opinion the frequency increase of these has absolutely minimal impact from society.

I am alleging that the official theory doesn't add up except on paper. And people infer their belief in a theory to correlate real conditions to fit that accepted belief.

Have you ever thought maybe it has nothing to do with chemicals? Or with eugenics? That maybe the climate is cooling and these are happening more frequently because the conditions for them to occur are happening in locations they weren't present in before?

i understand where you are coming from with your rationale. it is easy to get caught up in theories when we dont understand what is going on, and with our government having a history of not being on the up and up, it is even an easier pill to swallow to think they are out to get us, or that they are doing experiments at the cost of our safety and/or lives.

what i hope for you to understand is that when it comes to weather, the government has a history of experiments ranging from cloud seeding to thermal control, and we have failed at pretty much every angle.

this is because of the very nature of weather. trying to harness global circulations with something the size of an airplane is a daunting task to say the least, and the separation between upper and lower tropospheric flow can be so great that trying to effect the ground surface with an aerosol is an even more fruitless task.

contemplate this.

first try to understand how much liquid payload can one aircraft hold? now try to imagine how many aircraft it would take to introduce enough aerosol to have an effect?

what chemical are you suggesting that they are using? what is the lethal dosage of that chemical?

also think about the very nature of aerosol plumage. what are the steering winds? what is the dispersion rate for that aerosol when figuring 100kts of wind or even 150 or 190?

now to your picture.

You want a picture you can rationalize?

Picture dated: February 15th, 2000


"Oh that was just the Blue Angels flying by." WRONG!

NAVY BLUE ANGELS 2000 AIR SHOW SCHEDULE
www.defense.gov...
"Jan.2-Mar.10 (Pre-season training at NAF El Centro, Calif.)"

So why were there so many aircraft flying side by side at once?

Please sir I would like to know your opinion as to:

1. Weather conditions
2. Cloud altitude
3. Chemtrail altitude
4. Is it possible to determine N/S/E/W and time of day? (I'm serious on this one, I wouldn't mind learning)

first note the nature of the cloud formations that are separate from the trails ( i will call them trails so no one thinks i am taking sides... ok?)

they are thin and whispy and have a slight "transverse banding" effect with them. this is indicative of cirrus associated with the subtropical jet. this is understandable considering we are talking about the southwest. (this is based on the type of houses and the ground type/vegitatoin in the picture.)

this tells us a couple of things.

1) we are influenced by high pressure
2) flow will generally be from the WSW to the ENE
3) this picture was taken in the mid to late afternoon facing SW

this jet cirrus is between 20 and 25 thousand feet. this is known by the very nature of jet cirrus associated with the STJ which is usually a little more elevated than the PFJ.

now note that air flow is from the bottom center of the pic to the top right. this is also evident by the "curve" in the trails located at the far right, just below center.

the trails are nearly perpendicular to the jet flow, and we see that the jet cirrus is very near the same level as the trails.

common flight levels are : FL200, FL240, FL270. this also supports our analasys.

now jetflow is perpendicular to the trails.

if you consider that you are near an airport, and that you have a flight every hour, and the trails will move with the upper level flow, if each aircraft was on the same flight path, the resulting trail would shift downstream at an even rate. this is also why there would be a more diffuse trail in the upper right of the pic and a more concise one at the bottom left. more diffuse being older.

the trails would tend to stick around, considering february is a winter month, and would be expected to be colder, and more condusive of contrail formation and sustainment.

Also, I hope you get paid more than local news forecasters and meteorologists who decided not to easily write this off in the following segment:

i dont know how much they get paid, i dont get paid much, enough to pay the bills i suppose lol.

i cant open youtube videos, so that sucks... but i get the idea.

i hope this helps, feel free to ask more questions if you need to, i am happy to explain.

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Once again I refer you to his extremely informative threads.

.

2. You have this imaginary persona that you are intellectually elite as your replies note. Despite offering nothing more than hearsay and your opinion.

As an outside I gotta say, truth be told you seem to be the one sporting the attitude in this thread. You have a guy who is offering you ACTUAL information and not just hearsay. Just because you refuse to see data for what it is doesn't make it hearsay

3. That I know who Oz is. Because apparently he's some great and magical ATS user I should have had the foresight to have been aware of.

No he isn't magic that I am aware...just a weather expert that ha debunked this over and over and over

You call us elitists because we offr you info? Oh well

Have a good day

-Kyo