Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

reply to post by Xtrozero

Lets say that the 80% plus of the American population, being religious, all decided to become extremest and force creationism as to what will be taught in schools. Are you going to say "ok I highly disagree, but hey we will run with it" or are you going to home school your kids....

You mean, what would happen if America became a born-again Christian theocracy?

I think decent, patriotic Americans, who respect the Constitution and its wise separation of church and state, would have long since revolted and overthrown the Christian fanatics, don't you?

But say their revolt had failed; then the options would be those outlined by Maslo in an earlier post: teach the truth at home, secretly, while waiting for and dreaming of the day when you and your neighbours could rise again, tear the gibbering, godbothering oppressors' throats out, and trample them into the earth.

Just as Christian fanatics in the USA now dream of doing to those damn' Commie liberals...

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
Originally posted by Xtrozero

Who controls science and inforces these benchmarks?....the state

That's not true. Though the institutional frame may be given by the state, the people who decide about this are not institutions, ...snip

So we make a law that evolution must be taught, who does the enforcing and what would be the punishment? Does a science teacher go to their house and smack them over their head with a book? The state would be the enforcer, would it not?

But your taxes pay for their homeschooling. Not for the schooling itself, but for establishing homeschooling standards, enforcing them and taking the tests. That's all done with your tax money - so it is only fair to apply the same strict standards to the people enjoying your tax contribution - be that in public school or in homeschooling.

Well no.... (I think you just want to argue on this point) The parents pay full taxes like everyone else, but also all the schooling cost. The one cost to see if the children meet establish standards (testing ) I agree is the state cost AND those same standards are met by them since they are required to take the tests, REQUIRED. Not only which they pass, but excel at, so they meet the standards of the tests they meet standards, period.

If "homeschooling" means " go out of school and let the parents decide " I wouldn't care too much about what was being taught. But homeschooling is a regulated process - as you can get the same kind of degress like in public schools - so we better have the same standards or the whole system will lose it's sense.

Do they pass the required tests or not?

Look, if they teach creationism as science - they have no idea what science is. Creationism is not derived by the scientific method - this is a fact, not an opinion, that can be put to a test by anyone with a thinking mind. Leave out the question about which is right just for now - surely you do not want to make the claim that both have been discovered by applying the scientific method?

Well if you read my pass posts you would see I do not believe in creationism in the least, but once again what do we do to enforce it? That is the problem. They get a great education that meets all the establish standards, but have a different view on evolution. I have suggested that this scenario is like throwing out the baby with the bath water with the fix worst than the issue.

Yes we can write laws, yes we can harshly enforce them, but to what end? Is the child better off after all this is said and done? Do the parents go to jail for “child abuse”? Does the state force the children into a state run school? What do we do that doesn’t create a worst scenario for the children.

Science teachers must teach things that goe against their beliefs all the time. That's the whole point - their beliefs don't count, the science does.

Really? Don't think so... If it is science then it is not a belief type situation.

As someone who teaches history at a University, I teach stuff that I don't necessarily believe in all the time (no, not because "the state" forces me to - he doesn-t - but because some things are based on demostrable facts and sources and other stuff seems more plausible but has no documentation) yet I have no problem with it.

We are not talking basic norms here, also I'm not sure if anyone teaches creationism without their childern ever reading about evolution in some way, soI guess we are talking the extreme, and extreme is most likley very small numbers.

Faith is a strange animal, it doesn't need facts, so these people don't need emperical data to know they are right. This always comes back to two basic questions. What do we do to change it without creating a worst situation, and do they pass standardized tests or not?

If you refuse to teach objective facts that don't jive with your belief system, you have no right to be a teacher. A teacher must by definition be ready to teach against his very beliefs, and most teachers do at one point or another.

ok...great...

What you're saying is: " Hey, there's your truth and my truth and every one elses truth. Let's teach them all" . In that case the worth of your education is contingent on the whim and the belief system of the person teaching you - truly a horror-scenario. We need standards, and we need to enforce them. Science and the scientific soncensus gives us these standards, not the state.

But once again the state will be the ones to do the enforcing.

Just what is the main objective here? I would say for the children to receive a quality education and retain all that great information so they can do well in life while having the best attitude and environment to make all that happen.

Do public schools really meet this? I say not so well...even with all the standardized programs. In a perfect world every child would have a personalized teacher, mentor, adviser, but because parents can't do this we need to have other people do it for them. Which way it better? I would say as does empirical data homeschooling wins hands down.

Also just what are we really talking about here? If these children excel at all standardized testing that is required by the state then they must see evolution, though in the extreme cases it would be taught as the false truths of the unbelievers, but they must learn about it to pass state tests even though they most likely don’t believe in it.

So what is it here? Is it ok to pass the information, but push creationism? I’m sure that is the typical case in this very small minority that do it.
These kids excel well beyond their state educated counterparts, they continue to excel in college, and so evolution though I’m sure they know about really doesn’t play much into their success one way or the other.

BTW I think I read that Canada schools do not cover evolution until 12th grade, so one more year when they start college for these kids in some extreme creationism situation is not very much longer.



[edit on 12-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Astyanax


Your rant really didn't say anything, but I hope you feel better.... BTW this is America we don't revolt....

Originally posted by endisnighe
Just another attack on the homeschooled?

I am sorry, I learned more from my life and family then I did in school.

Read a book, open your eyes, critical thinking, NOT indoctrination.

Who cares what people are being taught in home schools?

Is it anybodies business but the parents? HELL NO!

I am going to post a members name just to show the way I feel-

tired of control freaks

I'll give you my take on homeschooling. I run a business - a forensic science consulting firm specializing in aviation forensics. If I hire an aeronautical engineer, I want him to use 3.14159265358979 3238462643383279 5028841971693993 7510582097494459 2*6406286208 9986280348253421 1706798214808651 3282306647093844 6095505822317253 as the value of pi, not exactly 3 just because the bible says it's 3. (1 Kings 7;23) That's not because I hate the bible or the fundies who believe every word in it is true. It's because 3.14... is right. When I hire a janitor, I don't care what he thinks pi is. So, if all you home schooling parents want to make sure your kids are forever doomed to be janotors, keep at it. If, however, you want your children to excel in life, have them get a science education that is based in science, not some iron age superstition.

reply to post by Xtrozero

On the contrary, it wasn't a rant, it was just an answer to your question: what would a sane person do if spit-flying Christian fanatics ruled America.

So Americans don't revolt? I thought your country was founded in a revolution. I believe you had a civil war about 150 years ago; am I wrong? And I seem to recall your ghettos were in flames in the 1960s, and that riots have occurred in your cities even as recently as the 1980s...

That's the trouble with far-right conservatives; they so cherish their fantasies of the Good Old Days they dare not remember their own history.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

So we make a law that evolution must be taught, who does the enforcing and what would be the punishment? Does a science teacher go to their house and smack them over their head with a book? The state would be the enforcer, would it not?

Your whole concept of the process is flawed. You use the word “law” as if we were dealing with the Narcotics Act or some other statute in criminal law. That’s not what we are dealing with here. The “laws” that are made in the local councils that determine the curriculums are more like guidelines that lay out what should be taught. There is no reference to enforcement or punishment; it’s just a formulation of subjects to be covered in the curriculum.
The state does enforce these guidelines – but not by sending Jackboots to your house – they do it by TESTING the kids. This is the same in public school as it is in home-schooling. If you teach creationism to your kid and don’t mention evolution, your kid will fail the biology test. This is the whole extent that state punishment takes regarding to the enforcement of curriculums. The test is the tool of enforcement if you are homeschooled or go to public school. There is no criminal law or punishment or repression or marginalization of anyone’s right involved.

Well no.... (I think you just want to argue on this point) The parents pay full taxes like everyone else, but also all the schooling cost. The one cost to see if the children meet establish standards (testing) I agree is the state cost AND those same standards are met by them since they are required to take the tests, REQUIRED. Not only which they pass, but excel at, so they meet the standards of the tests they meet standards, period.

I really don’t know how to respond to this, as I can’t make sense of your statement. My point was that your taxes finance the homeschooling system just as they finance public schools. The extent of the contribution may be different, but it’s the same process. The whole bureaucratic institution that goes behind regulated homeschooling is funded by all of our taxes, not just the taxes of parents who home school their children. Since you seem to agree I don’t know what the point is. If our tax money is involved in both, both should have the same mechanism of establishing standards - and they do; the test. I’m not sure if homeschoolers all “excel” but if they want to pass biology tests then I figure they must study evolution, don’t they? No one objects to them passing these tests – I have simply argued that only teaching them creationism will severely decimate their chances at succeeding in said tests.

Do they pass the required tests or not?

Some of them do, some of them don’t, just like in public school. Teaching them creationism as science will not be beneficial to their chances of passing.

Well if you read my pass posts you would see I do not believe in creationism in the least, but once again what do we do to enforce it? That is the problem. They get a great education that meets all the establish standards, but have a different view on evolution. I have suggested that this scenario is like throwing out the baby with the bath water with the fix worst than the issue.

We test them. If they peddle creationism as science in their tests, they’ll fail. There’s really no ground to evoke bogeyman fears of federal jackboots storming homeschoolers homes in order to punish them for not teaching the right stuff. Again, the test is the enforcement. Someone who believes that the Hardy-Weinberg principle is a myth but that the argument from irreducible complexity is valid won’t have good chances of passing even elementary biology classes.





[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Yes we can write laws, yes we can harshly enforce them, but to what end? Is the child better off after all this is said and done? Do the parents go to jail for “child abuse”? Does the state force the children into a state run school? What do we do that doesn’t create a worst scenario for the children.

There’s no criminal law involved. Just guidelines saying what children must learn and what not. These are not determined by a state’s legislative body but by specialized committees. There is no “harsh enforcement” in the sense that you are implying involved. The tests are the enforcement. You won’t pass these tests by claiming that creationism is science. Nobody goes to jail, the whole criminal law aspect that you are evoking is just bogus. No basis in reality. The child won’t be forced to anything. It just won’t get a degree and, if it can’t see through the BS his/her parents are feeding her, he will end up with a crippled understanding of science. That’s all the repression involved: Wal-Mart instead of Harvard.

Really? Don't think so... If it is science then it is not a belief type situation.

Well, I teach history at a university level. There are some things I tend to view as historical fact even though there is not enough evidence to prove them in a material sense (as so often in history). When I stick to the facts then I am kind of teaching against my beliefs in that scenario. Every teacher must be able to analyze his world-view and try to keep it out of the teaching of facts. In that sense, this is a dilemma that every teacher has and is undeniable.
Some of my co-teachers are Christians, but they teach science. They have no other option than to teach against their beliefs or modify their beliefs to jive with the science. If you were a teacher, you would know this dilemma – every teacher has it, religious or not.

We are not talking basic norms here, also I'm not sure if anyone teaches creationism without their children ever reading about evolution in some way, so I guess we are talking the extreme, and extreme is most likely very small numbers.

I for one find teaching creationism (mythology) as science rather extreme. As this topic is about textbooks that peddle creationism as science and don’t mention evolution, I guess it’s fair to say that this thread is about the extreme and not about those who walk the middle grounds.

Faith is a strange animal, it doesn't need facts, so these people don't need empirical data to know they are right. This always comes back to two basic questions. What do we do to change it without creating a worst situation, and do they pass standardized tests or not?

Finally something I can agree with. Since we live in a democratic republic, we won’t do anything about it. It’s their right to fail to provide their kids with a decent education. There’s no forcing anyone involved. They will pass the tests if they grasp Mendel’s Hereditary Laws, but they won’t if they don’t know about them (or it will just be that much harder for them to pass).

If you refuse to teach objective facts that don't jive with your belief system, you have no right to be a teacher. A teacher must by definition be ready to teach against his very beliefs, and most teachers do at one point or another.
ok...great...

I stand by that quote as it corresponds with the reality of public education as I came to know of it.

But once again the state will be the ones to do the enforcing.

I hope that by now you get that enforcement in this case means standardized tests.

Just what is the main objective here?

Teaching children science as science, and mythology or theology as what it is – certainly not as science.

Do public schools really meet this?

Of course not. Neither do parents. Science does, though, and that is why we rely on it and teach it as what it is.

Also just what are we really talking about here? If these children excel at all standardized testing that is required by the state then they must see evolution, though in the extreme cases it would be taught as the false truths of the unbelievers, but they must learn about it to pass state tests even though they most likely don’t believe in it.

Again the premise of the thread is textbooks that teach creationism as science and don’t mention evolution. That’s what we’re talking about. If the topic was simply homeschooling, I would agree with you.

These kids excel well beyond their state educated counterparts, they continue to excel in college, and so evolution though I’m sure they know about really doesn’t play much into their success one way or the other.

Only if they are able to distinguish science from pseudoscience/mythology/theology. If not, they are destined to have only the narrow choice between a small given set of fundamentalist colleges and universities, where there are no rigid scientific standards. I linked you to a rawstory article about that – the people mentioned in that article are totally unable to ever teach science at an institution that is scientifically, and not religiously motivated.





Heavy editing of both previous posts because I had to split the long answer into 2 answers. I hope all is right now. I'll have to check if everything is there and ok later.



[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Is anyone going to answer my question on the validity of the religious textbooks?

reply to post by technical difficulties


If they are teaching creationism, then they're about as invalid as you get in terms of biology education.

Click here for more information.

Click here for more information.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by 911stinks


I just noticed that "gem" of a response. Clearly you didn't spend too much time studying evolution, otherwise you'd know that when Darwin said "fittest" he used the word to mean "most suited" as in "fit for a purpose". It does not, and never has, implied strength or speed or anything like that.

Please get your facts right before launching into a tirade about a subject, otherwise you just end up looking woefully ignorant.

MOD NOTE

Please review previous in thread admonition to remain on topic and civil. Confine remarks to the topic and refrain from using insulting commentary toward your fellow members.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by drwizardphd


Evolution is a fact.

Well no.....its a theory

No...evolution IS A FACT. The Theory of Evolution is a theory. Funny how none of the creationists here know anything about science.

I always thought that if you were home schooled you would have no idea whatsoever on how to behave and make decisions in the outside world.

You NEED to be around other people your age when your growing up so that you know how to react with them. Otherwise what? You might be "Smart"? Well you might be a social reject who can't get a job because of the way you act socially.

Just my interpretation, i know someone who was home schooled untill they were 14 and then went to public school and guess what? They have no idea how to deal with social situations properly..

Plus it is unfair to the children in question seeing as you can't have fun at school. Thats the only reason i went to school, to smoke drugs, have a laugh and make some friends. I wouldn't have bothered with the learning part otherwise. My GCSE's were just a bonus.

Home schooling is TOO MUCH PARENTAL CONTROL. Then again school is too much government control also. I just think public school has more social benifits.

Originally posted by ashanu90

Originally posted by galacticos
To be perfectly honest, I see this as nothing more than propoganda. Proganda that is used in order to demonize anyone who dares to adhere to strong family values.



Personally, I believe the fact that both parents need to work these days just to put a roof over their heads, and food on the table has played a major role in the degredation of family values as well as morals throughout the western world.

The majority of children these days are raised by complete strangers for the majority of their developmental lives. They are at school being raised by complete strangers and then they often come home to a babysitter who watches them until the parents return home from work.

It doesn't matter whether the father or the mother stay at home in order to spend more time with their children. Either way, I believe that growing up with a parent around at all times, will ensure a much better upbringing and in turn will produce a much happier child as a result.

i agree with some of that i think that most problems with children are the fault of the parents

Well don't leave me hanging What are those problems?

Originally posted by NegativeBeef

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by drwizardphd


Evolution is a fact.

Well no.....its a theory

No...evolution IS A FACT. The Theory of Evolution is a theory. Funny how none of the creationists here know anything about science.

Help me out here. Tell me something about science and how it CREATES a fact.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

On the contrary, it wasn't a rant, it was just an answer to your question: what would a sane person do if spit-flying Christian fanatics ruled America.

So Americans don't revolt? I thought your country was founded in a revolution. I believe you had a civil war about 150 years ago; am I wrong? And I seem to recall your ghettos were in flames in the 1960s, and that riots have occurred in your cities even as recently as the 1980s...

That's the trouble with far-right conservatives; they so cherish their fantasies of the Good Old Days they dare not remember their own history.

So you live in mainstream xxxxxxx.. The land of total bliss, goodness and prosparity.This elevated form of existence is only exceeded by your thoughts and degradation of America and it's folks.
What the hell do you eat to get that way over where ever it is you call home.
America most likely has kicked the butt of your ancestors of spoiled them with to much friggin foreign aide.
You know I am correct.
What do you want with the minds of our children?
What do with the minds of yours?

[edit on 12-3-2010 by Donny 4 million]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


quoting Nichalphebet

"We test them. If they peddle creationism as science in their tests, they’ll fail. There’s really no ground to evoke bogeyman fears of federal jackboots storming homeschoolers homes in order to punish them for not teaching the right stuff. Again, the test is the enforcement. Someone who believes that the Hardy-Weinberg principle is a myth but that the argument from irreducible complexity is valid won’t have good chances of passing even elementary biology classes."

This is the biggest pant load I have ever read here on ATS.
What insane country practices this demagoguery?
Where the heck did you say you live Nich ?