The Eternal Heaven vs. Eternal Damnation Conspiracy

Hello ATS,

The following is an idea I have about one of the most basic and key beliefs in most major religions: the concept of a single carnation which will result in either an eternal reward or an eternal punishment.

...immediately after death, a person undergoes judgment in which the soul's eternal destiny is specified.[17] Some are eternally united with God in Heaven, often envisioned as a paradise of eternal joy. Conversely, others are destined for Hell, a state of eternal separation from God often envisioned as a fiery place of punishment.

Wiki

My questions regarding this eternal reward/damnation concept can be applied to every religion that teaches it.

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In my opinion this is a conspiracy bestowed upon the masses to get them to behave in a certain way out of fear for eternal damnation. We have been told that many different actions are sins in the eyes of God, and that a sort of spiritual criminal record exists for all of us, keeping track of how we behave so that we can be judged accordingly upon death.
Ironically, even in the case of Reincarnation, some people believe in Karma, which is also often spoken of as if it is kind of a 'spiritual criminal record'.

To this day these concepts are successful techniques to control the behavior of its believers, and I suspect they have been made up and systematically spread for that reason.

Whether in ancient Egypt or in the Bible belt today, these concepts were taught by people with higher status and or privileges to the 'lower' classes.

In this thread I would like to ask a couple hard questions to those who believe in this concept, in order for us to examine it, and in order for myself to learn more about this.

I would like to add that I consider myself to be anarcho-gnostic, meaning I do believe in life after death, as well as in the existence of an all knowing & all pervasive consciousness, but I don't believe in spiritual scriptures as the Word of God. I believe Heaven and Hell are states of being, much like being happy or sad.

A heavenly situation can easily be turned into a Hellish one, and vice versa.
Imagine a happy picknick with the entire family eating great food and having lots of fun in the park... quite heavenly right? Then up walks a suicide bomber and 'all Hell breaks loose'...
Even though the location (the park) didn't change, the situation went from Heaven to Hell... and so I believe they are mere polar opposite extremes on a spectrum that conveys the nature of a state of being, or the nature of a situation, rather than an actual location.

OK, here are my questions:

Question 1: Why force this existence upon us if we risk eternal agony as a consequence?

None of us asked to be here, at least I'm sure I didn't. Why would an all loving God create us without our approval, even though it meant that suddenly there is the possibility I might go to an eternal Hell designed for torment and agony? If I were asked beforehand and knew about the 50:50 chance ratio, I would have chosen for non-existence, non-awareness; you can't miss what you never had.

Question 2: Who decides where we are born?

The place of birth, and family we are born in can have a great effect on our behaviour. If I were born as the child of Mother Theresa there'd been a much better chance that I would end up in Heaven than if I were born in the family of a notorious and murderous Ku Klux Klan leader.
I don't believe there is equal opportunity at birth at all, so how is the birthplace decided and do some people get compensation or extra leeway considering their disadvantage at birth?

Question 3: What happens to people who die before they are able to commit sins?

If a person dies at three months of age, or even more extreme, at birth, what happens to them? How is their lack of sins compared to an old man who has made a few mistakes in life?
Do they still go to Heaven? If yes, than who decides who will die at birth and who will live a long life filled with temptation?

Question 4: What if your loved didn't make it to Heaven and you did?

What if someone you love, perhaps a brother or sister, had a few mishaps in life, but were turning their lives around for the better, but didn't do good enough fast enough?
How would you feel if you are in Heaven and you just got word that even though your sister was very close, she still has to go to Hell forever?

Question 5: How can a forgiving God keep people in Hell forever?

How is that even possible? Imo it isn't, so either God isn't always forgiving or eternal damnation does not exist.

Conclusion

It is not my intention to criticize people here, just a certain belief. I also would like to add that I do not think it is a sin to think of your God as a loving, forgiving one, even if that entails that you stop believeing that the Bible, Koran, Torah etc. etc. is His Word.

In other words, I myself am a believer, but not in the God that has been painted by the scriptures. I have faith that I'm equipped with all the tools required to make the best choices in the unique situations I get into, and if I make mistakes I will automatically be forgiven.

I do not fear my God, and therefore I do not fear the afterlife. I consider Eternal Heaven or Eternal Hell to be lies, and I believe all of us already possess Eternal Life; it is mostly up to us whether we spend it in Heaven or in Hell.

Thanks for reading/posting!

Actually Ill think you find the type of existence your talking about is only found in Chistanity and some of the earlier pagan religions.

Buhhdism, Hinduism, Jewdiasm, Islam etc all have bad places to end up when you die but its not permanent.

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Ok thanks,

...so I guess my questions pertain to the other religions to a lesser degree, although even for them I think these are important questions to ponder, especially since their beliefs are quite similar.

Not really if a culture doesnt perceive death or afterlife to be permanent then a lot of the questions become moot. But ill humor you. Jewish perspective:

Q1:

There is no risk of this. We are not forced to accept life its a choice we made before birth.

Q2:

God does. Man is not made to be equal with each other. We are created in order for the experience of creation (and its many expressions) to take place. We all serve our purpose.

Q3:

The same thing that happens to everyone else, only faster.

Q4:

No one 'makes it' to Heaven, Heaven isn't a place you hang out, its the place where the Angels and the Throne of God reside. When the final golden age comes we will have bought heaven to earth and only then will we ALL reside their.

Q5:

He doesn't. There is no Hell other than the ones we put ourselves in, and through time (even aafter death) we can work our way out of them.


Conclusion:

Mainstream Christanity likes to scare its lay people witless, this doesn't mean the other mainstream religions do. Though Islam may have a closer to Christian idea on the concept youll have to get a Muslim to come and talk you through their perspective.

I don't think your questions can be answered.

You've just hit on my main problem with the thought of a God as loving.....and yet damning his own creation.

In my opinion, its a paradox. The two cannot coexist. Which brings one to a new question.

Since a loving God would not damn his creation....does this mean God does not exist?

Or that God exists, but is not loving?

I see two results for this thread...either quickly buried for the hard justification, or a epic flamewar of biblical scale

I do hope its a big one...

will chime in later to annoy some posters.

reply to post by Conspiracy Pianist


These are all very good questions many of which have been answered by various religions but I was never personally satisfied with the answers.

Personally I never liked the idea of eternal life all that much, perhaps eternal life on Earth in a human body with free will like some sort of highlander would be nice but being stuck in Heaven bowing down all day with NO SADNESS would suck. Sadness is what gives life meaning, sorry but I don't want to be some zombie smiling and bowing for all eternity. Also a loving God could never damn someone for eternity, heck I doubt even I, a flawed human, would ever damn someone for eternity whether I love them or not let alone eternal damnation to a place as bad as the Lake of Fire. And then there's the number of different versions of Hell in the Bible, the Bible mentions:

The Pit, Sheoul, Gehenna, Hell, Hades AND the Lake of Fire and doesn't put a strict definition on what happens after you die. In some versus you are brought before God immediately in others you must wait in some netherealm until the end times when all are judged at once.

Because of how confusing and complicated the doctrines on Heaven and Hell are I had doubts even in during my indoctrination about any of that stuff being true.

Not only should it be impossible for a loving God to send people to Hell it should also be noted that people are born damned and that it is God's fault they are born that way. God planted the tree in the Garden, didn't guard against snakes getting in to tempt people, and made Adam and Eve ignorant of right and wrong, if I read correctly in Sunday School, BLAMED ADAM AND EVE FOR EATING THE FRUIT? WHAT!? HUH? They were entirely ignorant of evil so how can they be held responsible for sinning and furthermore how can every single one of their descendants be born a sinner because of the Fall? How is any of that fair? Seems to me its the sins of the Father (God) being taken out on the children (us humans).

So God is all-powerful but still gives us the so-called free will to choose whether we serve him or not but in order to serve him we have to follow a flawed belief system and self-contradictory Bible filled with absurdities? And if we have the slightest doubt we go to Hell? We're expected to believe all this, which is clearly false, based on blind faith with no proof whatsoever, OR ELSE!

Nope. Doesn't work or make a lick of sense at all. Thanks for this post, hopefully it wakes people up (but I doubt it).

Personally I never liked the idea of eternal life all that much, perhaps eternal life on Earth in a human body with free will like some sort of highlander would be nice but being stuck in Heaven bowing down all day with NO SADNESS would suck. Sadness is what gives life meaning, sorry but I don't want to be some zombie smiling and bowing for all eternity

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I've often wondered just what "paradise" would be....and cherubicly praising someone while strumming a cloud-harp doesn't cut it for me.

I think my paradise would be something along the lines of being able to experience everything, everywhere. Which would include the horrible things, too....as wierd as that sounds. But I'm finding as I grow older that experience really does bring greater understanding.

reply to post by gYvMessanger

if a culture doesn't perceive death or afterlife to be permanent then a lot of the questions become moot.

Right. But even a couple centuries of Hell is scary enough to be feared into submission. While it is true some of the posed questions are flawed when it comes to certain beliefs, they can be slightly altered to fit that belief and still have merit.

Q1: There is no risk of this. We are not forced to accept life its a choice we made before birth.

Who decided to give us that choice versus not having a choice at all?

Q2: God does. Man is not made to be equal with each other.

So then shouldn't the punish/reward system take these inequalities into consideration, and does it? This would mean that one man's sin 'counts' as less heavy than another man's exact same sin... never heard of that before.

Q3: The same thing that happens to everyone else, only faster.

I know you're answering for a specific religion, but I hope you see what I meant.
If sin or behavior is counted and kept track off, what happens to the people who've hardly lived a minute and are therefore incapable of sinning? If everyone gets only one chance at life, and their behaviour determines their next destination, how are these people dealt with?

Q4: No one 'makes it' to Heaven, Heaven isn't a place you hang out, its the place where the Angels and the Throne of God reside. When the final golden age comes we will have bought heaven to earth and only then will we ALL reside their.

That's cool, at least all of god's creations will eventually live happily ever after, it makes more sense to me. However, then why should we bother to behave? Why all the rules - I know Judaism has plenty of those right?

Q5: He doesn't. There is no Hell other than the ones we put ourselves in, and through time (even aafter death) we can work our way out of them.

That makes much more sense to me than the traditional view, and is also what I personally believe.

Thanks for posting!

reply to post by smyleegrl


Agreed.

For me, instead of then considering that perhaps God doesn't exist, I consider that the scriptures and subsequent institutionalized religions aren't God's Word or God's Work.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Hahaha, could be, although I was careful enough to add that I am myself a believer, just not in the scriptures and organized religion's version.

Now get back here and annoy some folks!!

For me, instead of then considering that perhaps God doesn't exist, I consider that the scriptures and subsequent institutionalized religions aren't God's Word or God's Work.

reply to post by Conspiracy Pianist


Excellent point.

Then is God knowable?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Nope. Doesn't work or make a lick of sense at all.

That's what I'm thinking... if it doesn't make any sense, perhaps there's a better explanation?

IMO, that explanation is that God isn't at all how he is described in the scriptures, and those are therefore not the Word of God.

Once that can be accepted by a believer without fear of being condemned by God, that person can then begin to see God in an entirely new light, and a much better one at that, at least in my experience. The scriptures can still be used for important lessons and insight, just not taken verbatim as is quite usual.

reply to post by Conspiracy Pianist


Thats the thing it isn't a punish/reward system at all. There is no good or bad, punishment or benefit, that's a filter that we apply to things on this side of the mirror, it doesn't mean thats how it actually is, only how we currently perceive the experience.

As for why should we follow the rules, we do it to grow closer to god, and we dont all do it by any means, only those who are seeking to grow closer to god do, that is not the path that at this point everyone made flesh is attempting to take even(especially) amongst the jews.

You don't get only 1 lifetime, and death is not the equivalent of being alive just somewhere else, if it was what would the point of life be. A baby may be born and lost very quickly specifically to have an impact on its parents lives or the lives of its doctors. It fufills its purpose than dies. Was that babies life any less complete than someone who lived to be 100 ? No of course not, it was just different.


[edit on 4-3-2010 by gYvMessanger]

reply to post by Conspiracy Pianist


LOL. I guess you are pretty new. Those questions and more have been asked millions of times before and yet they fall on Christians' deaf ears. I've asked some of those questions to some of my Christian friends before and yes I have received their answers.

I gave you a flag and a star for a good effort and good OP.

In my opinion this is a conspiracy bestowed upon the masses to get them to behave in a certain way out of fear for eternal damnation.

Ya think?

I grew in a strict Baptist home and my father was a pastor. I am almost 40 years old. I still have this fear to this day. Sometimes at nights I would wake up terrified about the possibility that Christians might be right and I would end up in hell even if I was "saved" when I was a kid. It's a psychological terror. You bet your a$$ it works.

Ironically, even in the case of Reincarnation, some people believe in Karma, which is also often spoken of as if it is kind of a 'spiritual criminal record'.

That is a completely different matter. Karma is a system of check and balance or something like that. Cause and effect. Yin and Yang. Or whatever. It's not a punishment.

How can anyone evolve or understand without being on the other side? That's what karma is.

Question 1: Why force this existence upon us if we risk eternal agony as a consequence?

None of us asked to be here, at least I'm sure I didn't. Why would an all loving God create us without our approval, even though it meant that suddenly there is the possibility I might go to an eternal Hell designed for torment and agony? If I were asked beforehand and knew about the 50:50 chance ratio, I would have chosen for non-existence, non-awareness; you can't miss what you never had.

It depends on who you ask. To Calvinists, the only way God can create us is to damn some people to hell. No other way around this.

To most other Christians, it doesn't matter if you had no choice in being here. You have a choice whether or not to believe. It's YOUR responsibility. Doesn't matter if there is NO evidence. You gotta have "faith".

Question 2: Who decides where we are born?

The place of birth, and family we are born in can have a great effect on our behaviour. If I were born as the child of Mother Theresa there'd been a much better chance that I would end up in Heaven than if I were born in the family of a notorious and murderous Ku Klux Klan leader.
I don't believe there is equal opportunity at birth at all, so how is the birthplace decided and do some people get compensation or extra leeway considering their disadvantage at birth?

LOL that is not a new question. It has been asked over and over again. "What about those in the Amazon jungles who have not heard of Christ???

Their answer? According to Paul, everyone knows there is Christ so they have no excuse.

Question 3: What happens to people who die before they are able to commit sins?

Various answers. Catholic Church believe that they go to purgatory. Some Christians believe that they go straight to heaven. Some Calvinists believe that some go to hell regardless.

Question 4: What if your loved didn't make it to Heaven and you did?

The answer? Sorry They will feel bad but oh well *you* chose.

Question 5: How can a forgiving God keep people in Hell forever?

How is that even possible? Imo it isn't, so either God isn't always forgiving or eternal damnation does not exist.

Old question as well. Logic is out for those brainwashed.

Conclusion

Yeah conclusion - brainwashed masses, even the intelligent ones. Like I said, you seem to be new to this.

I do not fear my God, and therefore I do not fear the afterlife. I consider Eternal Heaven or Eternal Hell to be lies, and I believe all of us already possess Eternal Life; it is mostly up to us whether we spend it in Heaven or in Hell.

I always ask Christians this - why do I have to fear God? Jesus walked among the "sinners". Who did Jesus hate the most? Think about it.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Pianist

Question 1: Why force this existence upon us if we risk eternal agony as a consequence?

Answer 1: We don't risk it. The absolute worst that can happen to us is that we will cease to exist for all eternity, with no hope of a resurrection either back to the earth or to heaven.

Question 2: Who decides where we are born?

Answer 2: Our Parents.

Question 3: What happens to people who die before they are able to commit sins?

Answer 3: Sin is a genetically inherited fatal flaw, all humans at the moment of conception have sin in their very DNA. This is why we grow old and die at the present.
So the same thing happens to them as an 80 year old sinner that die's, they are awaiting a resurrection back to life, and are currently sleeping in a coma like state.

Question 4: What if your loved didn't make it to Heaven and you did?

Answer 4: That is very unlikely from my perspective, however if one of them made it to heaven, they would be most blessed and I would be happy for them.

Question 5: How can a forgiving God keep people in Hell forever?

Answer 5: He won't! Hell as portrayed by Christendom does not exist! The Greek word Hades and the Hebrew word Sheol were mistranslated and mixed up with the word Gehenna, they are not the same. Most people that are dead are in Hades or Sheol, which means they will live again, but are from Jesus perspective just sleeping. Those in Gehenna aren't in a sleep like condition but are permanently gone. As God said from dust you are to dust you will return in death. It was Satan that said eat and you will live forever.
Satan is still perpetuating the original lie that the soul lives forever. But the soul can and does die.

Ezekiel 18:4b

the soul that sins, it shall die

Romans 6:7

for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.

So from this we learn that the souls dies but the price of death is so high that it wipes out a lifetime of sin.








[edit on 4-3-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Answer 1: We don't risk it. The absolute worst that can happen to us is that we will cease to exist for all eternity, with no hope of a resurrection either back to the earth or to heaven.

The question still stands then, albeit in different form:
What if one of my loved ones doesn't quite make it and ceases to exist forever while I will continue to exist and miss him/her? Why force that possibility upon us?

Answer 2: Our Parents.

Well it's true that the parents decide where a new baby will be born in most cases, but who decides which soul goes to which new baby body? The location and family of birth have a tremendous influence on how much temptation a person will find on their path... often even detrimental influence.

Answer 3: Sin is a genetically inherited fatal flaw, all humans at the moment of conception have sin in their very DNA. This is why we grow old and die at the present. So the same thing happens to them as an 80 year old sinner that die's, they are awaiting a resurrection back to life, and are currently sleeping in a coma like state.

So Mother Theresa and Hitler will share the exact same fate regardless of their actions? It's all falling apart quite quick in my opinion...

Answer 4: That is very unlikely from my perspective, however if one of them made it to heaven, they would be most blessed and I would be happy for them.

Regardless of how unlikely it is, the possibility exists. If there's a line in the sand, some will cross it big time, while others may have just crossed it by a hair.

Answer 5: He won't! Hell as portrayed by Christendom does not exist! The Greek word Hades and the Hebrew word Sheol were mistranslated and mixed up with the word Gehenna, they are not the same. Most people that are dead are in Hades or Sheol, which means they will live again, but are from Jesus perspective just sleeping. Those in Gehenna aren't in a sleep like condition but are permanently gone. As God said from dust you are to dust you will return in death. It was Satan that said eat and you will live forever. Satan is still perpetuating the original lie that the soul lives forever. But the soul can and does die.

How can we ascertain that it is indeed a lie that we already have eternal life?
This is a pretty big deal in my opinion, because if some people cease to exist while others life eternally in heaven... doesn't sound like a nice thing to do as a Creator in my opinion. On the contrary, giving everyone a guaranteed eternal life sounds much more like an act of Love for all his creations.
I cannot find it in my heart to believe that God wouldn't do such a thing.

Ezekiel 18:4b the soul that sins, it shall die
Romans 6:7 for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.

I'm sorry, with all due respect I have decided a long time ago that the scriptures cannot be the Word of God, so you might as well quote a fairytale but I will always use my heart, conscience and intellect to go with what I deem most likely and proceed with what I decide is the best way forward.

I believe that God has given us these tools and free will for exactly that reason.

So from this we learn that the souls dies but the price of death is so high that it wipes out a lifetime of sin.

This would only make sense to me if heavy sinners die slow painful deaths whereas innocent children die fast and pain free in their sleep.

We know this to not be true, so I can only conclude that there must be another explanation... Why would everything in life follow logic, and the laws of cause and effect, but when it comes to the core questions of our existence we find logical fallacies and contradictory explanations?

I believe Creation is perfect, so I look beyond the scriptures for truth, or at the very best what is most likely and most beneficial to live by.

Thanks for posting, much appreciated!

Originally posted by Conspiracy Pianist
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Answer 1: We don't risk it. The absolute worst that can happen to us is that we will cease to exist for all eternity, with no hope of a resurrection either back to the earth or to heaven.

The question still stands then, albeit in different form:
What if one of my loved ones doesn't quite make it and ceases to exist forever while I will continue to exist and miss him/her? Why force that possibility upon us?

REPLY: But It's not eternal damnation. And God can and will take away all forms of mental and emotional pain in the future.

Answer 2: Our Parents.

Well it's true that the parents decide where a new baby will be born in most cases, but who decides which soul goes to which new baby body? The location and family of birth have a tremendous influence on how much temptation a person will find on their path... often even detrimental influence.

REPLY: I simply do not believe that a soul goes into a babies body, a new soul is created at conception, God made it so souls could be generated by human procreation. As to the second part of your statement, life is cruel and unfair at this time, we all have to deal with what comes our way the best we can.

Answer 3: Sin is a genetically inherited fatal flaw, all humans at the moment of conception have sin in their very DNA. This is why we grow old and die at the present. So the same thing happens to them as an 80 year old sinner that die's, they are awaiting a resurrection back to life, and are currently sleeping in a coma like state.

So Mother Theresa and Hitler will share the exact same fate regardless of their actions? It's all falling apart quite quick in my opinion...

REPLY: Well in the future when God brings people back to life people MUST change from what they used to be, it will be an easy transition for people that were good, but a more difficult one for those that were evil. If they don't change within the allotted time, they will die for good this time.

Answer 4: That is very unlikely from my perspective, however if one of them made it to heaven, they would be most blessed and I would be happy for them.

Regardless of how unlikely it is, the possibility exists. If there's a line in the sand, some will cross it big time, while others may have just crossed it by a hair.

REPLY: I am not worried about it, I know of some married couples that have different hopes for the future, one heaven bound, the other with a earthly destiny. Although both are judged righteous eventually they will be separated, but both live on.

Answer 5: He won't! Hell as portrayed by Christendom does not exist! The Greek word Hades and the Hebrew word Sheol were mistranslated and mixed up with the word Gehenna, they are not the same. Most people that are dead are in Hades or Sheol, which means they will live again, but are from Jesus perspective just sleeping. Those in Gehenna aren't in a sleep like condition but are permanently gone. As God said from dust you are to dust you will return in death. It was Satan that said eat and you will live forever. Satan is still perpetuating the original lie that the soul lives forever. But the soul can and does die.

How can we ascertain that it is indeed a lie that we already have eternal life?
This is a pretty big deal in my opinion, because if some people cease to exist while others life eternally in heaven... doesn't sound like a nice thing to do as a Creator in my opinion. On the contrary, giving everyone a guaranteed eternal life sounds much more like an act of Love for all his creations.
I cannot find it in my heart to believe that God wouldn't do such a thing.

REPLY: Why would an evil person be granted eternal life either in heaven or earth? They would just ruin things for the good people around them.
God is like a landlord of the planet, he owns it and can evict the bad tenants whenever he wants too. A forced eviction equals non-existence.

Ezekiel 18:4b the soul that sins, it shall die
Romans 6:7 for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.

I'm sorry, with all due respect I have decided a long time ago that the scriptures cannot be the Word of God, so you might as well quote a fairytale but I will always use my heart, conscience and intellect to go with what I deem most likely and proceed with what I decide is the best way forward.

I believe that God has given us these tools and free will for exactly that reason.

REPLY: Sorry you feel that way, but the bible when properly understood is the code for truth, otherwise every human opinion has equal value and we see where that has gotten us in the last few thousand years.
1 Timothy 3: 16 & 17

16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

So from this we learn that the souls dies but the price of death is so high that it wipes out a lifetime of sin.

This would only make sense to me if heavy sinners die slow painful deaths whereas innocent children die fast and pain free in their sleep.

REPLY: Then you do not understand God's method of justice, does a loving parent hold a disobedient child's hand on a stove element, to inflict pain? No.
The perfect man Jesus with no sin did not die a quick death, most humans will never experience such a horrific death. Yet that death redeemed all humanity past, present and future. God and his son Jesus have already paid the highest price in the universe for us to live.

We know this to not be true, so I can only conclude that there must be another explanation... Why would everything in life follow logic, and the laws of cause and effect, but when it comes to the core questions of our existence we find logical fallacies and contradictory explanations?

I believe Creation is perfect, so I look beyond the scriptures for truth, or at the very best what is most likely and most beneficial to live by.

REPLY: Creation WAS perfect, but God did not create robots, he created both angels and humans with free will, they could choose to sin. He told them of the consequences if they did exercise the ability to sin. Just as we have the the free choice to jump naked from an airplane, our free choice, but the consequences of that free choice would not be good. The law of gravity would contribute to our deaths. God has laws too, and there are consequences for ignoring them, just like if we ignore the law of gravity.

Thanks for posting, much appreciated!

[edit on 6-3-2010 by Blue_Jay33]