The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - Fact or Fiction?

oops,
last two posts was a double post..oops!

anyways, do you know where i can buy the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, cause i looked around and i can't find a version to buy

Originally posted by akilles
Making them be 'ultra' as opposed to the people who actually forced others out of their homes 50 years ago, hmmm...

Clearly, your understanding of the foundation of Israel is flawed. The Palestinians were not "forced" out of their homes at all; in fact they were encouraged to stay and participate in the new government that was now free from British colonial rule. Unfortunately, surrounding Arab leaders scared a lot of people and told them that "the Jews" were going to massacre them, and incited them to flee and return after they conquered Israel. As we know, the combined forces of several Arab nations failed to accomplish this. There are hundreds of thousands of Israelis of Arab decent that live as full citizens in Israel today (I'm talking about Israel proper, not the West Bank and Gaza).

Why is it that Israel is constantly criticized for its treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, while countries like Syria and Jordan, where the governments performed wholesale massacres against Palestinian refugees, receive no attention?

Why is it that Israel is constantly criticized for its treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, while countries like Syria and Jordan, where the governments performed wholesale massacres against Palestinian refugees, receive no attention?

i never knew that
I never knew Syria and Jordan performed "massacres" against the Palestinians, is it possible to back this up?

Back to subject,
whats worrying about the protocols, is that they are coming to light meaning the Protocols "master plan" is starting to happen now, which is alarming.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by GrandCourtJester
Some say that the Protocols don't refer to the jews, but to the Priory of Sion, the secret in order of the freemasons.

Where did you hear this? i have heard no link between the Prioy and the Protocols. Ill read through your links, that you have posted, to see if anything is in one of those links.

It was in some of the Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln material from a few years back. They amintained that the Protocols were falsely attributed to jews, because of the Zion reference, but were actually associated with the Priory. Whether they were actual POS material, or an attempt to discredit the POS, that got misdirected against the jews, I don't remember.

Originally posted by GrandCourtJester
It was in some of the Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln material from a few years back. They amintained that the Protocols were falsely attributed to jews, because of the Zion reference, but were actually associated with the Priory. Whether they were actual POS material, or an attempt to discredit the POS, that got misdirected against the jews, I don't remember.

You got any more links about this?
your other ones did contain something about the POS, but it said it was only linked due to the "Zion" part in the protocols name.

No links, unfortunately. The info came from one of their books, and I can't remember which.

Originally posted by GrandCourtJester
No links, unfortunately. The info came from one of their books, and I can't remember which.

ok
ill look into it abit more

Originally posted by pill
On the other hand the orthodox jews are against the occupation of Israel and consider it an illegal state

That is wrong.

Neturei Karta, a small fringe group of antiZionist extremists, reject Israel as a state.

Within the Orthodox one can distinguish between the ultra-Orthodox or haredi, and the "modern" or "neo-Orthodox."

Among the ultra-Orthodox, for example the adherents of the Agudat Israel Party,accept the state and work within many of its institutions.

The (modern or) neo-Orthodox have not cut themselves off from society at large. They are oriented to the same ideological goals as many of the secularists, and they share the basic commitment to Israel as a Zionist state.

Furthermore, they participate fully in all the major institutions of the state, including the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). This group is also referred to as "Orthodox Zionists." They have been represented historically by a number of political parties or coalitions.


Rebekka

Originally posted by infinite
I never knew Syria and Jordan performed "massacres" against the Palestinians, is it possible to back this up?

Black September 1970

The Palestinian Arabs tried to take control of Jordan.

King Hussein of Jordan ejected Arafat's Palestinians in September 1970, (called Black September) because they were trying to take over his kingdom. King Hussein drove them into Lebanon after killing more than 10,000. (more)


Rebekka

Originally posted by Riwka
Black September 1970

The Palestinian Arabs tried to take control of Jordan.

King Hussein of Jordan ejected Arafat's Palestinians in September 1970, (called Black September) because they were trying to take over his kingdom. King Hussein drove them into Lebanon after killing more than 10,000. (more)


Rebekka

thank you for that,
cheers for backing your claim up

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by GrandCourtJester
No links, unfortunately. The info came from one of their books, and I can't remember which.

ok
ill look into it abit more

The book in question is 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' (1982). There is a great deal of good analysis and factual background work to this book, but unfortunately it was let down by some giant leaps of logic. One of these is the attributing of the Protocols to the mythical 'Priory of Sion' (see debunk. )

On the same site theres some interesting background to one of the authors.

Yes people there is a difference between "Z"ion & "S"ion - Please be more careful in the Future!

As a Policy I would NEVER say that ALL the people of a certain Race or Religion or Group are all one way or the other! There are Good & Evil people in any Group & as we know there are all sorts of Organizations in this World! All of this stuff is Relative!

Just what the Heck is a "JEW" anyway! I think a mistake that is constantly being made over & over again through out History is the Idea that Race & Religion are Absolutely Connected some how - They are NOT! They are totally SEPERATE things! To say that they are Connected at the Hip is to DENY FREE WILL & FREE THOUGHT!

Also for people who think that it is not possible for different Religions & Races to Mix & Mutate hence forming TOTALLY NEW & Different Races & Religions - you are wrong - it happens all the time! It is constantly happening! It is happening at this very Moment! It is called EVOLUTION - we are all just Human People in the End! No amount of "Worldly Power" will prevent you from your DEATH one day in the Future & then the Piper will have to be Paid! "World Domination" is really a USELESS Enterprise!

You are Correct Akilles when you say then the HexaGram or Six Pointed Star is a "Jewish" Symbol - it is a "HERMETIC" Symbol as well! We are going back into Thousands of Years of History & Delving into Philosophy, Religion & Human Nature here people! This is not a Subject for Silliness & Pseudo Intellectualism!

On the other hand I think that you might be onto something "mOjOm" your Postings CRACKED ME UP!
It is a Good way of showing people how Silly & Ridiculous this Topic has gotten - oh no the Boogieman Jews & Boogieman Arabs are coming! Simple Xenophobia - even with-in the two groups just mentioned themselves!

[edit on 2-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 2-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

There is something i would like to know about Zionism, that is its links to 9/11 (i know is going off subject abit) But lets say the Zionists are behind the protocols, were they too behind 9/11 aswell to pull off their master plan?

Byrd said: As such, it's a fascinating study in propaganda: "how to turn people against another group so you can commit genocide." A clever person can turn out the same sort of fiction about just about any group and put in references enough to make them appear to be minions of whatever foul forces you like.

Byrd, I am curious: If this document was designed JUST to foment hatred of Jews, why was it written so brilliantly? I do respect the need for skeptics and debunkers, but it would be so easy to cause such hatred with a less-perfect and less-inspired piece of writing. Do you have anything to offer about the contents? I have enjoyed your debunking as I have read in the past, but I'd like to hear what you think about the content.

Honestly, anyone who has done much reading will be impressed by the Protocols, and dismissing them as JUST a racist plot by the Russians to foster hatred for the Jews is short-shrift, IMO.

Infinite, I am glad to see you post this because there is not enough discussion of the Protocols here. They are obviously written by persons who know how to move humans in a preferred direction and when people are being herded, one could say that they are 'ignorant' and therefore it is appropriate that this book gets discussed on ATS despite all the people who want it to go away.

Shame that people are more concerned about their own little group getting insulted (masons, jews, etc). Who cares about groups or people who belong to groups? Group thinking is for dolts. The Protocols, however, were written by high-intellect.

As has been said, it doesn't matter who wrote it. It also doesn't matter how you define the word "Zion" or if you hate a certain race or whatever. The fact is, these are detailed instructions and any instructions can be used by ANY group. To illustrate the point; A black Muslim could read the Protocols and say, "Wow, these are some good techniques. I'm going to devote my life to this!" and by following the Protocols (and if he had millions of dollars and powerful friends) he could effect some of the things described.

Are we concerned with the origin of this book or the chilling fact that it is coming true? The former matters little, the latter means your life.


[edit on 5-6-2005 by smallpeeps]

Source:9/11 Research
9/11 was one of the most pivotal days in world history. Its impact will be felt for years to come. You owe it to yourself to go beyond the sound bites and the simplified official story. This is an extremely complicated story with numerous players and motives. Not everything makes sense or fits neatly together. It's a story full of espionage, deceit, and lies. But if there are forces out there tricking us, they can only succeed if we, the general public, remain ignorant and passive.I am limiting my 9/11 research sources to only those one might call "mainstream." Why? It's not because I believe one can only trust the mainstream media. In fact, I feel the opposite is true - much of the best research today is coming from alternative media. But many people are initially very skeptical. A lot of 9/11 research I found looking around the web seemed very hard to believe when I first saw it. The numerous media reports of an "art student spy ring?” Come on, how weird is that! But if the Washington Post or CNN reports a particular fact, then might there be something to it? My goal was to use sources that are not generally considered partisan. These sources presumably are at least trying to be "neutral". So my goal in using mainstream research sources is to generally open eyes to new possibilities. I've used a large amount of foreign research sources, especially since these stories have often received much more attention in Europe than in the US. But I've tried to use common sense. For instance, a story in a Pakistani newspaper that reflects poorly on Pakistan would be much less likely to be propaganda than the same story coming from an Indian newspaper (and vice versa). In a few cases I've used partisan sources to add more detail to some stories. Information or comments from partisan sources (including myself) is italicized. After seeing the severity of what’s being hidden from us, you will very likely want to join in working together to build a brighter future.

This is a really interesting article on Zionism and any links it might have had to September the 11th.

Edit:

ww1.sundayherald.com...
THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Odium]

Has anyone mentioned that the House of Saud has placed in every hotel room in Saudi Arabia a copy of The Protocols? True or not, they are great promoters of them.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Has anyone mentioned that the House of Saud has placed in every hotel room in Saudi Arabia a copy of The Protocols? True or not, they are great promoters of them.

I've actually never heard of that. Do you have any information or links to back it up? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. Thank you.

Edit:

One thing has always puzzled me, if you look through History for thousands of years the "Jews" have been accused of plotting to take over the world. Why is this? Is there evidence to back any of this up?

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Odium]

One thing has always puzzled me, if you look through History for thousands of years the "Jews" have been accused of plotting to take over the world. Why is this? Is there evidence to back any of this up?

Im not sure,
ill look into it for you

blaming another group is a great way to get everyone to read the document that you need to read it, and a cheap way to get it spread, without having any implication on yourself.

basically a guy wrote it , puts a group in there and calls it a conspiracy, and gets it spread to his whole network for free, while everyone of course openly condemns the document...

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Has anyone mentioned that the House of Saud has placed in every hotel room in Saudi Arabia a copy of The Protocols? True or not, they are great promoters of them.

I've actually never heard of that. Do you have any information or links to back it up? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. Thank you.

It's written about in the excellent book:

Secrets of the Kingdom by Gerald Posner

I highly recommend it. It discusses the relationship between Israel, the US, and Saudi Arabia. They can't stand each other and we're dead in the middle. Now there's a great example of what George Washington warned us about... regarding entangling alliances.