Eric Lawyer-Firefighter-911 was a Criminal Coverup

reply to post by GenRadek

The government didnt tell me anything.
1,000s of independent engineers, metallurgists, fire fighters, architects told me.

Then why are you defending the OS lie?
The fact is, most of the “1,000s of independent engineers, metallurgists, fire fighters, architects” do not support the OS fairytale.

Would you like to debate me on that?

You prove to me, where“1,000s of independent engineers, metallurgists, fire fighters, architects” support the OS and show with credible sources and leave out your opinions.

Bring it to the table.

Just bring the evidences to the table it is that easy.

Originally posted by Dogdish
Melted Cars

if you had actually bothered to read that thread you would have seen that those cars were moved there....

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by ImAPepper

 

Does this mean you would Pull It for Larry if he ordered you to?
I thought you put me on ignore when your feathers were molting. Are you going to allow Dave to answer for his self?
Building SEVEN didn't even have a aircraft hit it.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Donny 4 million]

Do you even know the correct quote? or is your reading comprehension out of whack (again)?

I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it." And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.

reading comprehension Donny. Now, according to the quote above, who made the decision to pull?

To all the "members" that have tried to debunk the 9/11 truth movement.

Are you kidding me? You are either completely ignorant or working for someones agenda to criticize and ridicule the 9/11 truth movement.

All of you talk about the physical evidence for your counter argument. That's all I ever hear from you all. Look past it and ask yourself deeper questions. I think its also hilarious that you use the rational that theres only 1,000 members of the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth or pilots for 9/11 truth. Are you kidding me? It's because of idiots like you there are "only" 1,000 members. Idiots like you who criticize and call them crazies. At least they have the courage to ask questions. Where's you're patriots against 9/11 truthers movement? I really think you guys should start one so we can all laugh at you and call you crazy so you can know what it feels like.

Maybe it will take one of your own family members or friends to die an event like this to open your eyes and minds. What would you do if they did? Wave your American flag? No you'd be furious. Think about it. Get out of your comfort zone you cowards.

And to any organization that is trying to collect a database of us crazy truthers, go ahead and add me to every list you can and send them to as many agencies as you can. I have no fear of you.

Hi Donney, I think he may be talking about the conversation, maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, there has to be a clue in the conversation, like if the firemen were asking to "pull it" as in bringing down the building, then they would be looking for an affirmative from LS. If, on the other hand they wanted to pull out, they would not be asking LS. The actual conversation with the head of the team was about the fire.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by smurfy]

Ok. Lets just look here at the big picture for a moment. We can all agree that people lost their lives on 9/11.

We can all agree that people still continue to lose their lives to this day because of 9/11 because of the Iraq war that supposedly ended in March of 2003.

We can all agree that a percentage of the population would like a new investigation regarding the 9/11 attacks.

We can all agree that this investigation will cost the taxpayers money.

We can all agree that taxpayer money gets wasted all the time.

We can all agree that we are angry about the events of 9/11.

I have a few questions - Why can't we call agree that this event did not get the the special "outside of the box", "No stone un-turned" type investigation that it deserved in the first place?

All I'm saying is this - WE NEED A NEW INVESTIGATION! Preferably by people that are in no way associated with the government whatsoever. People that will not take a cash bribe. People that won't take a power bribe. REAL. HONEST. PEOPLE. People that would turn in a million dollars cash they found on the sidewalk. People that would notify the police that they are too drunk to drive and to come arrest them.

Are we gonna get it? Probably not. The type of people I listed above do not exist or I have never met them....

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
December 25, 2001 ...


.... Apparently, the Government wants nothing to do with engineers learning from this collapse how to build safer structures. I wonder why. Maybe the engineers would have learned some other things if they had full access to the evidence.......

Also, check out the date of this article. Obviously could not have picked a better day for minimum exposure of this information.

Experts Urging Broader Inquiry in Towers' Fall....

"This is almost the dream team of engineers in the country working on this, and our hands are tied," said one team member who asked not to be identified. Members have been threatened with dismissal for speaking to the press."

Sorry for snipping the post... I wanted to point out a couple key points.

All the questions raised in the article from Dec. of 01 are pretty much answered here:

President Signs Bill Granting Commerce's NIST
New Authorities to Investigate Major Building Failures:
www.nist.gov...

"To have all 5 resident official story pushers here chime in within minutes of this thread being posted in a tag team fashion must mean the information in it is valid and damaging to their cause."

Yeah...kind of like a swarm of cockroaches scattering to the same designated hiding spot once you turn on the lights.

Originally posted by ImAPepper
reply to post by Donny 4 million

 

Nice dodge... go find out why you were mistaken with the Silverstein quote. LEt me know ... okay?

Dodge van with dancin agents maybe.
Everyone knows what Larry said and WHY.

reply to post by impressme


Well for starters:

NIST

Oh but thats a government group so to you, it cant be trusted. sorry.

I'll have to thank ImAPepper for this list:

What Did and Did not Cause Collapse of WTC Twin Towers in New York
Authors Bazant, Le, Greening & Benson. Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE 134 (2008).

Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions Co-author Verdure. PDF. Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE 133 (2007): pp. 308–319
Discussion and replies to June 2006 Bazant & Verdure paper: James Gourley, G. Szuladinski

Bazant & Zhou, 2001-2002: Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?—Simple Analysis J. Engineering Mechanics ASCE, Sept. 28, 2001, addendum March, 2002.

Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation. Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C., JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

Dissecting the Collapses Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

A suggested cause of the fire-induced collapse of the World Trade Towers. By: Quintiere, J.G.; di Marzo, M.; Becker, R.. Fire Safety Journal, Oct2002, Vol. 37 Issue 7, p707, 10p.

S. W. Banovic, T. Foecke, W.E. Luecke, et al. “The role of metallurgy in the NIST investigation of the World Trade Center towers collapse”, JOM, vol. 59, no. 11, pp. 22-29, November 2007.

Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center. By: Karim, Mohammed R.; Fatt, Michelle S. Hoo. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Oct2005, Vol. 131 Issue 10, p1066-1072.

Could the world trade center have been modified to prevent its collapse?; Newland, D. E.; Cebon, D. Journal of Engineering Mechanics; 2002 Vol. 128 Issue 7, p795-800, 6p.

"Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers" Clifton, Charles G., HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center; Wierzbicki, T.; Teng, X. International Journal of Impact Engineering; 2003 Vol. 28, p601-625, 25p

Stability of the World Trade Center Twin Towers Structural Frame in Multiple Floor Fires. By: Usmani, A. S.. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Jun2005, Vol. 131 Issue 6, p654-657.

Structural Responses of World Trade Center under Aircraft Attacks. Omika, Yukihiro.; Fukuzawa, Eiji.; Koshika, Norihide. Journal of Structural Engineering v. 131 no1 (January 2005) p. 6-15

The Structural Steel of the World Trade Center Towers. Gayle, Frank W.; Banovic, Stephen W.; Foecke, Tim. Advanced Materials & Processes v. 162 no10 (October 2004) p. 37-9

WTC Findings Uphold Structural Design. Post, Nadine M. ENR v. 253 no17 (November 1 2004) p. 10-11

"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations" Monahan, B., Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Ming Wang, Peter Chang, James Quintiere, and Andre Marshall "Scale Modeling of the 96th Floor of World Trade Center Tower 1" Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities Volume 21, Issue 6, pp. 414-421

Engineering Conference Papers
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering" Marechaux, T.G. JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Abboud, N., M. Levy, D. Tennant, J. Mould, H. Levine, S. King, C. Ekwueme, A. Jain, G. Hart. (2003) Anatomy of a Disaster: A Structural Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapses. In: Proceedings of the Third Congress on Forensic Engineering. San Diego: American Society of Civil Engineers. pp 360-370

Beyler, C., D. White, M. Peatross, J. Trellis, S. Li, A. Luers, D. Hopkins. (2003) Analysis of the Thermal Exposure in the Impact Areas of the World Trade Center Terrorist Attacks. In: Proceedings of the Third Congress on Forensic Engineering. San Diego: American Society of Civil Engineers. pp 371-382

Thater, G. G.; Panariello, G. F.; Cuoco, D. A. (2003) World Trade Center Disaster: Damage/Debris Assessment In: Proceedings of the Third Congress on Forensic Engineering. San Diego: American Society of Civil Engineers. pp 383-392



Fire Protection and Fire Modeling Papers
How did the WTC towers collapse? A new theory; Usmani, A. S.; Chung, Y. C.; Torero, J. L. Fire Safety Journal; 2003 Vol. 38, p501-533, 33p.

Effect of insulation on the fire behaviour of steel floor trusses. Fire and Materials, 29:4, July/August 2005. pp. 181 - 194. Chang, Jeremy; Buchanan, Andrew H.; Moss, Peter J.

"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings" Brannigan, F.L. Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

"Construction and Collapse Factors" Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Corbett, G.P. "Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster" Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Collapse Lessons" Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Burgess, I.W., 'Fire Resistance of Framed Buildings', Physics Education, 37 (5), (2002) pp390-399.

G. Flint, A.S. Usmani, S. Lamont, J. Torero and B. Lane, Effect of fire on composite long span truss floor systems, Journal of Constructional Steel Research 62 (4) (2006), pp. 303–315.



Fire Protection Conference Papers
"Coupled fire dynamics and thermal response of complex building structures" Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 30, Issue 2, January 2005, Pages 2255-2262 Kuldeep Prasad and Howard R. Baum

Choi, S.K., Burgess, I.W. and Plank, R.J., 'The Behaviour of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire', ASCE Specialty Conference: Designing Structures for Fire, Baltimore, (Oct 2003) pp 24-32.

Jowsey et all, Determination of Fire Induced Collapse Mechanisms in Steel Framed Structures, 4th European Conference on Steel and Composite Structures, 10 June 05, 69-76

Usmani et all, Collapse scenarios of WTC 1 & 2 with extension to generic tall buildings, Oct-2006 Proceedings of the International Congress on Fire Safety in Tall Buildings

Related Papers
Interactive Failure of Two Impacting Beams Xiaoqing. Teng and Tomasz Wierzbicki. J. Engrg. Mech., Volume 129, Issue 8, pp. 918-926 (August 2003)

Use of High-Efficiency Energy Absorbing Device to Arrest Progressive Collapse of Tall Building Qing Zhou and T. X. Yu Journal of Engineering Mechanics 130, 1177 (2004)

A simple model of the World Trade Center fireball dynamics. Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 30:2, January, 2005. pp. 2247-2254. Baum, Howard R.; Rehm, Ronald G.

Reconnaissance and preliminary assessment of a damaged high-rise building near Ground Zero. The Structural Design of Tall and Special Buildings. 12 :5, 15 December 2003. pp. 371 - 391. Warn, Gordon; Berman, Jeffrey; Whittaker, Andrew; Bruneau, Michel

"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center" Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A., The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48

John K. McGee et al, “Chemical Analysis of World Trade Center Fine Particulate Matter for Use in
Toxicologic Assessment”, Environmental Health Perspective (June 2003)

UC Davis Aerosol Study: Cahill et al., “Analysis of Aerosols from the World Trade Center
Collapse Site, New York, October 2 to October 30, 2001”, Aerosol Science and Technology,

Lioy et al, “Characterization of the Dust/Smoke Aerosol that Settled East of the World Trade Center
(WTC) in Lower Manhattan after the Collapse of the WTC 11 September 2001”, Environmental Health
Perspectives, Volume 110 #7

Looks to me like the above support and find no fault in the events of 9/11 as they happened. I see ASCE a few times here. Are they credible enough for you? Hows about International Journal of Impact Engineering?


[edit on 3/3/2010 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by Dogdish
Melted Cars

if you had actually bothered to read that thread you would have seen that those cars were moved there....

Read this:
What Melted Cars - Rense

6. Using the images from another website may or may not have been a mistake. Some readers are certain that the two rows of vehicles in the parking lot shown were moved there. However, there isn't any photographic evidence to support this. Undisturbed dust UNDER the vehicles shows these vehicles were there all along since the collapse. For those who are sure they were moved, consider these facts: And if the vehicles were moved, would any tow truck driver go to the trouble to "sort" the vehicles in a such a way to move them to the parking lot shown, orienting them all the same way and grouping them according to damage? When there were hundreds of destroyed vehicles to be moved? Tow-truck and flat bed drivers are paid by the vehicle, and the more vehicles they move the more money they make. A totaled vehicle is still a total loss and not worth sorting.

Originally posted by Alfie1

Originally posted by smurfy
He is actually saying that the fireman's manual states that thermite is one accelerant that should be tested for in the case of a steel building collapse! that surely must be one the most important parts of his speech. Thermite is in that manual, yet is one of the most poo-hooed CT ideas. This is a whole new light on it for me.



[edit on 3-3-2010 by smurfy]

Can you or anyone please show me that the fireman's manual states that thermite should be tested for in the case of a steel building collapse ? Thanks.

Duh.

Didn't the fireman just do that in the video? Do you even bother to look at the OP before you start on your flaccid denier schtick?

The Dave in Denial Show!

I'm sure this has been posted here already, but I wanted Dave to know the definition:

Denial is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

I wonder how many scientists and engineers have gone on record supporting the official story, compared to those who did the opposite? I don't know, but i bet there are more on record opposing it.

Originally posted by without_prejudice

Originally posted by Alfie1

Originally posted by smurfy
He is actually saying that the fireman's manual states that thermite is one accelerant that should be tested for in the case of a steel building collapse! that surely must be one the most important parts of his speech. Thermite is in that manual, yet is one of the most poo-hooed CT ideas. This is a whole new light on it for me.



[edit on 3-3-2010 by smurfy]

Can you or anyone please show me that the fireman's manual states that thermite should be tested for in the case of a steel building collapse ? Thanks.

Duh.

Didn't the fireman just do that in the video? Do you even bother to look at the OP before you start on your flaccid denier schtick?

I can't watch the video so are you saying they showed the manual and what it says?

"All the questions raised in the article from Dec. of 01 are pretty much answered here:

President Signs Bill Granting Commerce's NIST
New Authorities to Investigate Major Building Failures:
www.nist.gov... "

Just a minor correction Pepper; the NYT article was on 12/25 not 12/01, however, that is not pertinent to my response.

October 2, 2002? Why did Bush wait over one year after the attacks to sign this bill? This should have been done immediately after the attacks. The longer you wait, the more you compromise the investigation. This extended delay is unforgivable and bordering on criminal negligence.

My belief is that he waited this long in order for all of the damning evidence to be discarded (which it was) and so that the administration could put together a team which would give them the pre-determined investigative result they desired.

So they waited over a year to put into motion the investigation of the collapse, but the Patriot Act was signed into law a short six weeks after the attack? Taking away people's civil liberties was much more urgent and important to them than the criminal investigation of one of the most devastating attacks on American soil?

One has to hand it to them: they did an outstanding job of planning and executing the deceptive 9/11 attack, however, the coverup was strictly amateur hour. This is where they left the door open for further examination and speculation. Apparently, they were arrogant and became sloppy, thus failing to execute an effective ironclad coverup.

reply to post by GenRadek

Would it be too much to ask for an internet source to back your claim?

Again, where are your thousands of firemen that back the OS?
Again, where are your thousands of Engineer that believe in the OS?
Again, where are your thousands of Architects that believe in the OS?
Again, where are your thousands of metallurgists that believe in the OS?

Those reports that “ThroatYogurt” found are only opinions that lack any sciences and NONE have been peer reviewed.
I do not see anyone, or any big origination accepting these reports as facts.

A&E does not stand behind the garbage you have presented.
Try again.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6d27a8a73ac1.jpg[/atsimg]

Back in May of 1988 I was working late one evening at my office at 505 South Flower Street, in the Arco Towers in downtown Los Angeles and was horrified when I stepped outside to catch a taxi home at 9 PM to see the 62 Story First Interstate bank building on fire, with 2 floors of the building completely engulfed in flames.

I stood there for a couple of hours as firefighters battled the blaze watching it slowly spread up a floor here a floor there and finally went home to watch on TV what I was sure was going to end up being the complete loss of the building.

The brave firefighters or the Los Angeles Fire Department made a desperate and near suicidal last stand to contain the fire though and managed to start putting it out in the wee hours of the morning. At one point four stories were completely engulfed in flame with fires lapping at portions of the floors above and below.

Yet by noon the next day after structural engineers had gone through the building they started letting people back into their offices. Within a couple of days it was open for business as usual.

Later on that week I had a chance to visit a client who worked in the building and marveled at the 4 floors that were completely gutted except for the steel girders and concrete supports, nothing was left but them.

People can argue all they want about the impact of the planes and the jet fuel on Towers One and Two but based on what I witnessed first hand from a vantage point 2 blocks away at the First Interstate Tower I truly do not know how it was possible for building 7 to have collapsed that day.

Building Seven which housed the Securities and Exchange Commission the investigatory body that would have been called upon to investigate some of the strange and fortuitous trading practices that day.

It’s rather odd we have come to live in a world where a coined word like “Truther” could have a negative connotation.

I fully support a real investigation into 9-11 it’s way past due.


[edit on 3/3/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by GenRadek


I like this one best Gen do you remember the best part? Can you tell us about it.

Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center. By: Karim, Mohammed R.; Fatt, Michelle S. Hoo. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Oct2005, Vol. 131 Issue 10, p1066-1072.

reply to post by Sean48


Here is article by Leslie Robertson who DESIGNED the buildings !

www.nae.edu...

The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires.

Operative words;

"It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land"

Now (weedwhacker can back me up) - most pilots do not land planes at 600 mph!

Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets.

Operative words:

"we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft."


Notice Robertson could not determine the post impact fires in his damage
calculations

"the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires."

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Scary. Were there exploded stairways and bodies laying on the other stairway like Barry tells about in his video of BUILDING SEVEN?