What IS the United States of America???

Originally posted by gmcnulty
A` tad narrow if you will allow me an observation..........sure leave out a whole lots of God's other good people..............wouldn't you say?

No, not narrow at all (leave God out of it, please!). I'm just saying that America has much more availiable to it that it allows it's people to act out more of the qualities that make us 100% human. It wasn't meant to be a good or bad comment. I'm just saying we as Americans are able to be ourselves more because of the place we live in.

Originally posted by specialasianX
Every nation wants a utopia for itself and no-one else. The USA is just the most powerful (economically, culturally, and militarily) nation so it can forge out its utopia. To say the USA wants Utopia for everyone would be ignorant, as what is utopia for the USA isnt utopia for every other nation. in fact what the USA (administration) percieves as utopia isnt even what the majority of citizens want. The 'utopia' the US goverment is looking for is beneficial to people who are laready prosperous and has little to no benefits for those striving to be prosperous, it was not designed to benefit any other nation other than itself (if other nations benefit from it, it would be because the USA needed them to fulfill the 'utopia'). This in itself is not too bad, thats the way things are and of course the USA is going to squash anyone who gets in the way. What i dont like is how they try to pretend to be doing all this horrible stuff for the good of the world.

You could not have said it any better. We are for ourselves. That is fine, but the problem is when we try to make ourselves out to be "good," rather than realizing we are capable of both "good" and "bad," and that ultimately, we are in it for ourselves.

Things like religion cause a lot of social problems in this country because religion is always trying to go against what this country is all about and what being human is all about.

Gazrok,

It takes A S**TLOAD to be an empire built on conquest. You mention nukes, but remember, the point of conquest is to take something that belongs to the enemy. It's very difficult to do that if you destroy everything, because there would be nothing left! Pummeling the enemy to the ground without destroying what you are fighting for is conquest in itself - war.

The U.S. has neither the political power, economy, or even the military to support such awesome campaigns of pillaging and destruction. Our military is too small to go on a global conquest (I'm not saying our military is small), and our economy is so taxed that a massive war would send us into turmoil (which is why we'd need to win the war!). We simply have never been in a position to be that powerful empire and like you say, it's absurd to say we are one, because we have never been one and the way things are going, never will be.

I wouldn't call us expansionistic, I'd use the term "influential." We like to shape things outside our country so it will benefit our country. We don't want to take over the world (the cost of that is too high), so we'll just make ourselves fatter by having the rest of the world pretty much work for us.

Saphronia,

This is exactly the problem. To say we are "good folks" is trying to deny the fact we are capable of both good and evil. Sure, you may want to do good, but serously, does it make you cry if someone in Ukraine is murdered? No. Are you willing to destroy your competitors to make your business successful? Probably yes.

We need to stop excusing ourselves. We need to realize that we are people, and that we are selfish and don't care about anybody else but ourselves. That is NOT a bad thing. That is not a good thing. That is the way we are. And that in it gives us every right to be that. We can still be these "good" people, but in the end, we're still centered on ourselves.

That's why I love America. It lets us be who we really are, instead of trying to suppress it. And that's how America is America, by being itself.

Originally posted by specialasianX
Every nation wants a utopia for itself and no-one else. The USA is just the most powerful (economically, culturally, and militarily) nation so it can forge out its utopia.

And wouldnt that be our reward for achieving that plateu of power?

To say the USA wants Utopia for everyone would be ignorant, as what is utopia for the USA isnt utopia for every other nation. in fact what the USA (administration) percieves as utopia isnt even what the majority of citizens want.

A. So I guess the humanitarian aid and disaster relief is just window dressing?
B. This is a thread about what you think the administration is, but what you think America is.

The 'utopia' the US goverment is looking for is beneficial to people who are laready prosperous and has little to no benefits for those striving to be prosperous, it was not designed to benefit any other nation other than itself (if other nations benefit from it, it would be because the USA needed them to fulfill the 'utopia').

And Im sure you have the best working knowledge of this as an Australian.
So your saying that every international action the US has helmed was just to make the rich richer? Whos bordering on ignorant now.


Simply put. Go back to your didgeridoo and boomerangs.

Something I realized. I think most of you will find it oh-so-true.

If you want people to be "bad," you have to suppress them. But if you want your people to be "good," you have to suppress them even more. People naturally cannot be one or the other, they have to be both. So the only way to make the one or the other is, I said it, MAKE them be "good" or "bad."

Take those fairy tales, for example. Some speak of the benevolent king who treats his people so well and they all live in peace and harmony for themselves and each other. The operative word? KING. What is a king? A monarch. What is a monarch? A ruler who has total power over his dominion. He is basically a dictator, pretty much. Yet he suppresses his people, but they are all still happy and live peacefully. Why? Because he made them live in happiness and peace.

So the point is, it's all good, but it only came about because the liberties of the people were reduced. In the end, it's quasi-slavery. The end result is very good, but it only came about because you succumbed to the will of someone higher than you.

This is what makes the U.S. what it is. America does not suppress it's people, it lets us do whatever we want, say whatever we want, see whomever we want, look at porn, whatever. All at the expense of a society where we can live in peace and harmony. But that's fine, because in order to have peace and harmony, you have to give up your freedom.

America truly is the greatest nation on Earth! We can be whatever we want to be!

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Agent47,

specialasian was just echoing what most everyone here was saying, that ultimately, America is about itself, no matter what we do or what we say.

What do you think America is about? Itself or the world? Or something else?

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo.

What do you think America is about? Itself or the world?

Protecting the rights of its people and national interests. That goal requires both national and international action.

Semantics aside. I love this country and there is no other place I can imagine living. My father was an uneducated, coal miner who got his education from the military. At age 36 he finally got his masters degree in logistical engineering. He now travels the world, lives comfortably and has put his kids through college. Where else would he have been afforded these opportunities?

How about any other country in Western Europe, or Canada, or Japan...?

The USA isn't the only country in the world which has so called 'oppertunities'. That's what gets to me about America. It assumes that it is better than anyone elses, when the only thing that sets them aside from the other 'developed' countries is the size, population and natural resources available to it!

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
America truly is the greatest nation on Earth! We can be whatever we want to be!

I wouldn't go that far , times have changed. During the late 20s and early 30s, America was a great nation. All this secret plots, hidden agendas and power hungry men has helped to bring America down. In MHO, no nation is great now, our governments are corrupt, silent games are played in the shadow of power and all we are is worthless pawns.

During the late 20s and early 30s, America was a great nation.

It was hardly great then, that's when the corruption was most rampant, during the depression! The Federal Reserve and members of the government cause that to happen deliberately. Unemployment was higher then than it is in, for example, in India today!

During the 20s and 30s, that was when the "American Dream" meant something..

It really is beautiful when the English are discussing American history.

The American dream was the fifties IMO. Lordleftys right on this one.

Originally posted by lordlefty
How about any other country in Western Europe, or Canada, or Japan...?

The USA isn't the only country in the world which has so called 'oppertunities'. That's what gets to me about America. It assumes that it is better than anyone elses, when the only thing that sets them aside from the other 'developed' countries is the size, population and natural resources available to it!

Put away the persecution complex. The question she asked was "what is the US" not Japan, Canada, etc. I, in no way, was pissing on any other country's opportunities.

I was simply relaying the fact that the US has been good to me and mine. And if you had continued to read my post you would have noted that I believe it imperative to question the motives and actions of those in power in the US. We must strive to improve our image with the rest of the world. That seems abundantly clear based on your views of the US.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Saphronia,

This is exactly the problem. To say we are "good folks" is trying to deny the fact we are capable of both good and evil. Sure, you may want to do good, but serously, does it make you cry if someone in Ukraine is murdered? No. Are you willing to destroy your competitors to make your business successful? Probably yes.

We need to stop excusing ourselves. We need to realize that we are people, and that we are selfish and don't care about anybody else but ourselves. That is NOT a bad thing. That is not a good thing. That is the way we are. And that in it gives us every right to be that. We can still be these "good" people, but in the end, we're still centered on ourselves

I believe you are wrong. Maybe you are selfish and in that case you should speak for yourself. And yes, it does hurt my heart to see folk dying around the world and my heart goes out to them. No, I'm not thinking of it every second of the day but that doesn't make me selfish nor does it make americans selfish. If you are looking for justification for you thoughtless and careless attitude don't blame in on your nationality. Blame it on your upbringing. People are not selfish by nature they are taught to think of self and if that is how you think you need to search yourself and figure out the cause and undo the damage.

In my opinion, most americans are good folk. That is not to say that there are no evil americans. It means I acknowledge that majority of americans are good people and care about the world around them and the world they leave to their children. One's belief in the good of man is not the "problem". The problem was here before the United States and it will be here long after. Its that no two people think alike and it causes conflict and usually reactionary violence whether it is global or personal--conflict is thought. You can't simplify it down to one's concept of good and evil. Good and evil are just perceptions and in the wrong hands they both can create misery.

Originally posted by Saphronia
I believe you are wrong. Maybe you are selfish and in that case you should speak for yourself. And yes, it does hurt my heart to see folk dying around the world and my heart goes out to them. No, I'm not thinking of it every second of the day but that doesn't make me selfish nor does it make americans selfish. If you are looking for justification for you thoughtless and careless attitude don't blame in on your nationality. Blame it on your upbringing. People are not selfish by nature they are taught to think of self and if that is how you think you need to search yourself and figure out the cause and undo the damage.

In my opinion, most americans are good folk. That is not to say that there are no evil americans. It means I acknowledge that majority of americans are good people and care about the world around them and the world they leave to their children. One's belief in the good of man is not the "problem". The problem was here before the United States and it will be here long after. Its that no two people think alike and it causes conflict and usually reactionary violence whether it is global or personal--conflict is thought. You can't simplify it down to one's concept of good and evil. Good and evil are just perceptions and in the wrong hands they both can create misery.

Fortunately, I am correct.

There is nothing to be ashamed about being selfish. Selfish does not have to be a left and right kind of term. We are all selfish, because in everything we do, we are searching for something for ourselves.

Let's play your game. You say you do care about other people in the world. Cool. But why? Why do you care about other people in the world? I know why. Because you want to. You are a sensitive person and you want everyone to be happy. So it is a selfish action, because while you care about someone else's welfare, it's because that's who you are and you want to fulfill that need. If you don't care, then you don't help or think about them. If you don't have the need or are the type of person, then you can't care about others.

No matter how you look at it, it all comes down to your own desires, feelings, and needs. There is no action without a type of motivation or whatnot. You have to want/feel a need in order to do something. In the end, you ultimately make the decision to do so. Somebody may hold a gun to my head, but I still have the choice whether to die or do what s/he says. It's free will. You want to care, and that's why you do. So it is a selfish action, because you may do it because you want to help others, but because it is what YOU want, it is selfish. So everything we do is selfish. And we are selfish, but don't be ashamed. It's who we are.

In the end, it all comes back to where it came from: us, the individual that made that very decision. You even said it yourself, we think for ourselves. So by thinking for myself, I found out everything is connected in a symbiant circle. Ever heard of "every action has an equal and opposite reaction?" Cause and effect? We have inner thoughts, we make a decision, carry out the action, and we have an effect, and that effect affects us one way or another.

Let me also tell you that it's rather unwise of you to assume that I am thoughtless and careless just because you disagree with me. Again, free will and what makes America so great. I can tell you what I believe and you can tell me that you think I'm careless (although that's totally inaccurate). But yeah, you're wrong, and you should say what needs to be said, not what you say out of disappointment in others' opinions.

Good and evil, bad choice on your part. If you read, you would infer that I don't believe in good and evil, because the world is gray. Again, selfishness is not a bad things, like you say, it's all based on perceptions, but according to human nature, everything we do we do because it was our decision (we can always choose not to), therefore we are selfish. But get it right, there is nothing right or wrong about that, especially since right and wrong, again like you say, are perceptions that are gray. And that is why America is great. This nation isn't led by the types of people, but the way it was built, it was built to accomodate the grayness of reality.

I don't blame my attitude on anything. In fact, I don't believe in laying blame like you do (perhaps that was from YOUR upbrining?). And next time, make a legitimate comment instead of assumptions.

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

infinite,

Let's face it, what country is built around the idea that good and evil are relative terms? That is why America has become as powerful as it has. We see the need to fulfill our own individual needs and desires, and everyone else can do whatever they want.

Before this discussion gets out of hand, let's reiterate the fact that America is one hell of a place. The best nation, because it's the closest we've gotten to freedom. In fact, it IS freedom. What place let's you forge out your own path like America does?

The problem is, if you get several hundred million people in America all forging paths of their own, eventually they are going to clash. Competition arises. But c'est la vie. Humans survive through competition, right? Without competition, there is no winner. But then there are those that are more advantaged than others (like the government). Because of that, we have things like the New World Order, etc.

If only we'd stop denying it...

Anyway, I'd like to hear more about what you think America is all about instead of these "we are good people, seflish is bad" drivel that makes no sense. Let me ask the question again, "What does America mean to you? What is America all about? Peace and harmony for all mankind? Being on our own reality of paradise by destroying our opposition and taking what we want from them? Or watching our own @$$ and our own @$$ only in this cruel and gray world?

America is a promise made by Americans to Americans NOT to the rest of the world. It is a promise that every American will be free to pursue thier dreams to the fullest of thier own abillities based on the opportunities they encounter in thier lives. It is NOT a promise that all Americans ARE equal . Just that all people have an equal abillity to pursue opportuninties based on thier own abillity. It is a promise that the government will not infringe on your abillity to seek opportunity, NOT that the government will insure that you have the SAME opportunities as every one else. It is the promise that you will be given the right to pursue your abitions as far as your abillities will take you NOT that you will achieve your ambitions.

Originally posted by mwm1331
America is a promise made by Americans to Americans NOT to the rest of the world. It is a promise that every American will be free to pursue thier dreams to the fullest of thier own abillities based on the opportunities they encounter in thier lives. It is NOT a promise that all Americans ARE equal . Just that all people have an equal abillity to pursue opportuninties based on thier own abillity. It is a promise that the government will not infringe on your abillity to seek opportunity, NOT that the government will insure that you have the SAME opportunities as every one else. It is the promise that you will be given the right to pursue your abitions as far as your abillities will take you NOT that you will achieve your ambitions.

Well said.

Although I do disagree with your "government will not infringe on your ability to seek opportunity." Many people forget that the government is composed of humans, humans who are also seeking opportunity.

We in America, EVERYONE, can do whatever they want. That's what makes us so great.