Making my own bunker soon.

I am lucky enough to be able to build a house on my future mother in laws land in central Vermont. I have not convinced my fiancee of this yet, but I want to build an underground house for us. I told her I would build a house above it later if she wanted, but we will see. Anyways, I am looking for personal stories,tips,experiences,etc from you guys. I have looked online alot but there isnt anything satisfying enough that I have found yet so I want more personal info.

The things I am basically hung up on are;

-Ventilation. I want to have two systems available. One manual/passive type and one mechanical/electric. I know alot about electronics and such so I have a system planned for the fans and such so that all of them are independently controlled with the ability to blow in both directions. Nothing fancy. Ducting/pipes,the fans, some switches all on a board with labels. That way I can adapt to any future issues like being smoked out or something. This also brings up another issue. Concealing air intakes and outlets.

I am thinking PVC pipe will do right for ventilation needs. I think I could put the pieces right into the concrete walls before it dries and then just work with it when its all dry cutting and gluing to make it work right. I was thinking 10 inch wide.

For fans, I was thinking about some of these linked below:
www.horticulturesource.com...=4972
With a blower to pull air in and push air out at the end of the run if needed:
www.garden.com...



-Plumbing/sewage. I was gonna try to build so that I used the hills/slope of the land to my advantage cause of gravity and all of that. I have NEVER dealt with sewage and wanted some input on gravity or low energy systems that are simple and durable.

For water, I was going to bury a tank uphill and/or use the many small streams nearby via filtration.

-General construction. My plan is to find a spot. Either flat or sloped land. If flat I will;
Dig. Keep all passages and rooms narrow with alot of untouched earth for more support. Leave one foot spacing outside of where I plan the walls to be. Lay down one foot or so of stones of random sizes. Ideally, all small pebbles. Lay concrete slab for floor. Start building walls with wood for supprt and concrete as the finished material. The roof is a bit tricky, as are the ventilation specifications. Ideally I would want to run the vents far away from the bunker itself and hide them, but I do not know how to go about that effectively and most importantly, on a budget. So build roof, fill the one foot gap around bunker with ideally pebble stone and then cover with dirt.

If the chosen area is sloped;
I will dig a "step" of sorts into the hill and basically build several linked concrete boxes and cover them with dirt. Ventilation will be a tab easier as I can just make vents in the walls facing away from the hill high up out of reach. Same basic plan. Dig, pebble the bottom, pour slab, erect walls and roof, cover top with dirt and back wall outside with pebbles.

I will use the french drain method as I think it is called. Long ditches filled with rocks and PVC pipe with holes and rocks inside to drain water away from the bunker.

For the walls, I plan to use concrete, scrap steel I can find or buy cheap, and a strange idea I have. They sell this stuff that is metal pieces to put in the concrete to help reinforce it better. I am basically going to shred all of my spare electronics and wire to do the same thing on a budget. I dont know how effective it would be, but I have alot of crap to shred so it is worth a shot. Finally a use for my dozens of computer cases, hell yeah!

I plan to cover the outside faces of the wall with roofing tar and then tarps for extra water and moisture protection of the concrete.

-Electricity. I plan to roll with solar and generators. I basically want to build a separate connected room for the generator(s) and fuel storage. This room or one close will also probably house the ventilation system parts and the water/sewage pumps if needed. I also want to have power from the normal grid for use until I need the generators. As in; use the power until it isnt there anymore because of whatever reason. Maybe an old military diesel engine fashioned to create my power and maybe run it on biodiesel! That would be pretty awesome and worth the work/smell! I hear those deuce and a half engines can run on anything. Maybe one could be turned into a generator? I am not sure.

-Heat. I was thinking a wood stove for a very backup method. Like when I am out of fuel. I think the earth, body heat, and the generator(s) will heat the place nicely.

-Security. Guns and gun ports inside only for choke points and exterior door areas. I just purchased a Cypher industrial grade remote keyless door entry system. Essentially two boxes. One with the 8 button keypad and the other with the brains of it. You can choose ac or dc and what voltage it all runs on. Also some other spiffy extras. It is straight up sexy and will go awesome with a steel door of the DIY persuasion.


This shelter is going to be a several year project not all at once. I need help from you guys to start planning so I can get materials and start building when the weather is better. Cheap/DIY is what I am going for here. While it is not a good idea to do things cheap when it comes to this, I am not an idiot and have alot of experience in some of the areas involved, just not all. I am pretty resourceful and can make something of nothing. So I would rather buy the parts for something than go for the commercially made equivalent. Also, MILITARY SURPLUS stuff is always a good recommendation to me!!!!


Thanks in advance guys and gals. I look forward to getting some useful advice and will SURELY post pictures and keep you updated when stuff starts happening. Once I pick a spot to build and get advice on the ventilation and stuff I will be creating a 3D virtual model of the bunker before I start building. So that will be awesome!

[edit on 27-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You


I'm not going to do the research for you...but look into ancient roman building techniques and such.

For heating/cooling...issues, if the home atop your underground bunker, is allowed to be vented at the peaks it will create a natural air flow..heat rises forming a drawing of air from your bunker if you allow there to be, a vented area between them.

It can and does work well in reverse for heating most ground...below a few feet is like 58 degrees F year round, and can keep your wood burning ammount cut way down.

I am a simple person, so to put it in words I can understand easily, its much like a drinking staw, you just need to be accurate as to where you place your in/out vents and you will create naturall heating cooling.

are you building a house or a hatian style shack?

sorry if it sounds negative... but dam, it really doesnt sound like the type of place i would want to live in..... i really dont see your fieance being behind this idea!

Originally posted by A-E-I-Owned-You
-Electricity. I plan to roll with solar and generators. [edit on 27-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

If price is not a issue (assuming it isnt if your considering solar), you might want to keep an eye on the rollout of the bloom box tech. That seems viable, wont choke you with fumes, etc etc...

As far as air, make sure to have hydroponic room full of greenery to help with the air quality...

The more you can fully disconnect from the outside, the more secure and long lived the bunker will be...ideally if the mix is right, a self contained ecosystem fully disconnected from the outside world would be best...like the vaults from the fallout games. However, we have yet to truely make a biodome that has worked long term...alot of variables, so you should consider how long you would want to disconnect from the world above before planning...3 months, 3 years, etc...and start from there.

Finally, ,make sure to figure in how many people will be using the resources...theres going to be alot of math involved here

Why, I mean what for? Do you believe something is going to happen? What advantage do you think you will have? What if the streams become polluted or the air, or what if something explodes over you and you become trapped? Just curious.

Other then my questions, the advise I can give you is this.

Check out Habitat for Humanity. They have some really cool ideas on bio friendly housing, underground quarters, stilt houses...all kinds.

Habitat

Another way to go is Modular housing. You have the house built off site then have them ship it in completely built in Modules. Just do a google search.

For sewage you would just run a leach line to a sewage tank.

Anyway, a couple of things I remember...Good luck.

Peace

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You

 

I'm not going to do the research for you...but look into ancient roman building techniques and such.

For heating/cooling...issues, if the home atop your underground bunker, is allowed to be vented at the peaks it will create a natural air flow..heat rises forming a drawing of air from your bunker if you allow there to be, a vented area between them.

It can and does work well in reverse for heating most ground...below a few feet is like 58 degrees F year round, and can keep your wood burning ammount cut way down.

I am a simple person, so to put it in words I can understand easily, its much like a drinking staw, you just need to be accurate as to where you place your in/out vents and you will create naturall heating cooling.

Thanks Doc. I will check it out!

Originally posted by boaby_phet
are you building a house or a hatian style shack?

sorry if it sounds negative... but dam, it really doesnt sound like the type of place i would want to live in..... i really dont see your fieance being behind this idea!

Initially? Neither. Afterwards, A house on top or close to it.

Its a good thing you werent invited then huh! But really, I grew up homeless and on my own. I am unused to the living conditions I am sure you are familiar with. A bunker is exactly what I want and need. I am paranoid, avoid other humans, and dont mind the conditions.

She isnt down for the idea. But it isnt her money and time so shes SOL. I am tweaking my ideas to play to her desires though including a porch of sorts and some windows. But those will both be easily quarantined or separated from the rest of the structure.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by A-E-I-Owned-You
-Electricity. I plan to roll with solar and generators. [edit on 27-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

If price is not a issue (assuming it isnt if your considering solar), you might want to keep an eye on the rollout of the bloom box tech. That seems viable, wont choke you with fumes, etc etc...

As far as air, make sure to have hydroponic room full of greenery to help with the air quality...

The more you can fully disconnect from the outside, the more secure and long lived the bunker will be...ideally if the mix is right, a self contained ecosystem fully disconnected from the outside world would be best...like the vaults from the fallout games. However, we have yet to truely make a biodome that has worked long term...alot of variables, so you should consider how long you would want to disconnect from the world above before planning...3 months, 3 years, etc...and start from there.

Finally, ,make sure to figure in how many people will be using the resources...theres going to be alot of math involved here

Resources are easy for the most part. it will only be my girl and myself and I am not preparing for anything. Although I do already have enough supplies for us both for awhile.

I agree. If I were building a SHTF type bunker I would surely want to be disconnected and independent as I could. As in stands we will have animals and plants for food, but that happens after the bunker is built. More or less it will be an unusual dwelling that can be buttoned down for emergency situations quickly. Normally though I will be on grid with internet as I make websites and video games for a living.

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Why, I mean what for? Do you believe something is going to happen? What advantage do you think you will have? What if the streams become polluted or the air, or what if something explodes over you and you become trapped? Just curious.

Other then my questions, the advise I can give you is this.

Check out Habitat for Humanity. They have some really cool ideas on bio friendly housing, underground quarters, stilt houses...all kinds.

Habitat

Another way to go is Modular housing. You have the house built off site then have them ship it in completely built in Modules. Just do a google search.

For sewage you would just run a leach line to a sewage tank.

Anyway, a couple of things I remember...Good luck.

Peace

I do not think anything will happen. But I would rather be more prepared than the next guy. If all the streams and air become an issue, it will not matter where I am. It isnt a trap, it is a home for now and will simply be an advantage later. Dont picture me sitting in this for months or years. If SHTF I would use it as a base until I found a better place. It is merely another resource at that point, not a permanent shelter.


I will check that out.

[edit on 27-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You


ive been homeless as well in the past .. slept in some strange (and cold) places..

as a basement with a house on top, it sounds like a good idea... i think it was the thought of making your own reinforced concrete and gun points that got me !

Originally posted by boaby_phet
reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You

 

i think it was the thought of making your own reinforced concrete and gun points that got me !

Well I did say I was paranoid...

First of all you need to test the soil mix on site. This will tell you what construction methods are available. If you want cost-effective then rammed earth walls give you underground protection and insulation without having to actually build underground. You may find the soil too rocky to dig far into. Blasting is not an option (as fun as it may sound).
You WILL have to deal with 2 people on your project: the building inspector and your future wife. Both have the potential to stop this project dead in its tracks. To satisfy THE MAN be sure to stay within codes or YOU will be SOL. To satisfy the lady make sure that the building methods are for ENERGY CONSERVATION. Using thermal mass and large windows you can have a very bright and comfortable home. You can make your "bunker" the laundry room or a "storage area".
Besides rammed earth several other building methods might have promise for you. (I've been researching them for myself)
SCIP - Structural concrete insulated panels
Green concrete - concrete using pozzolan materials or flyash, offers stronger, more fire-resistance and less water-permeable,
YOu may want to look into Cob and cast earth building methods as well.
Go for the woodstove and use that for your hot water as well.
If you have a stream source uphill you can not only get your water from there but you can put a ramjet electrical generation system in line from it.
Finally, a cistern might do well for storing water.
Last thing - if you want "shooting ports" don't expect the fiance to be cool with that. You need to create a system of small windows perhaps that you can quickly replace with shooting ports (know what I mean earl?)
Best of luck to you, should you get this happening please post pictures so we can see your work.
PS hit the salvage yards for lumber/windows/plumbing fixtures etc,

well this is one of the best examples of sticking to what you know .
and from what you have written you do not know anything about construction . your ideas for reinforcing concrete had me in hysterics
you are building a coffin.
your girl friend is right , leave this idea alone .

remember the childrens story about the three little pigs and the wolf

Mod Edit: Umm how about NO. Cheers -alien

[edit on 28-2-2010 by alien]

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
First of all you need to test the soil mix on site. This will tell you what construction methods are available. If you want cost-effective then rammed earth walls give you underground protection and insulation without having to actually build underground. You may find the soil too rocky to dig far into. Blasting is not an option (as fun as it may sound).
You WILL have to deal with 2 people on your project: the building inspector and your future wife. Both have the potential to stop this project dead in its tracks. To satisfy THE MAN be sure to stay within codes or YOU will be SOL. To satisfy the lady make sure that the building methods are for ENERGY CONSERVATION. Using thermal mass and large windows you can have a very bright and comfortable home. You can make your "bunker" the laundry room or a "storage area".
Besides rammed earth several other building methods might have promise for you. (I've been researching them for myself)
SCIP - Structural concrete insulated panels
Green concrete - concrete using pozzolan materials or flyash, offers stronger, more fire-resistance and less water-permeable,
YOu may want to look into Cob and cast earth building methods as well.
Go for the woodstove and use that for your hot water as well.
If you have a stream source uphill you can not only get your water from there but you can put a ramjet electrical generation system in line from it.
Finally, a cistern might do well for storing water.
Last thing - if you want "shooting ports" don't expect the fiance to be cool with that. You need to create a system of small windows perhaps that you can quickly replace with shooting ports (know what I mean earl?)
Best of luck to you, should you get this happening please post pictures so we can see your work.
PS hit the salvage yards for lumber/windows/plumbing fixtures etc,

Salvage yards,craigslist,etc are number one on my list of places to get materials.

Alot of information there. I had looked up rammed earth shelter ideas and it is definitely a possibility. The idea with the stream is also a good one and one I had thought of before I posted. I do not know what streams are there, but I do know there are quite a few of them plus some spring areas. In short, water is not an issue to get I just do not know the amount that will be there. The basic plan was to route some of it my way, filter, store somehow, and then use. If I can get a big tank of some sort from a salvage yard, I will be in the clear. I had also been thinking of the idea of a small pond type situation as my (not primary!) water storage area. I do not know how I will filter the water yet, and advice on that is welcome.

The basic idea is to have windows and a greenhouse or porch at one part of it. I will make it so I can seal off the main part of the house from these parts though. It all depends on the area of land I can build on really. I have to go out and look at it all and see where I want to claim. Her mom owns 50 acres or so and 98% of it is unused. It is on a giant hill with excellent possibilities. Farming, fresh water, tons of forest, animals everywhere to hunt.

Originally posted by tom.farnhill
well this is one of the best examples of sticking to what you know .
and from what you have written you do not know anything about construction . your ideas for reinforcing concrete had me in hysterics
you are building a coffin.
your girl friend is right , leave this idea alone .

remember the childrens story about the three little pigs and the wolf

You can laugh all you want. I am here to get information to fill in the parts I do not know. I also did not include all of my knowledge or ideas here. This is the internet and it is a tool to gain knowledge. That is what I am doing now. Everyone has to start somewhere and there is still knowledge and experience to gain in failure. If you have nothing worthwhile to add, you can go elsewhere for your "entertainment".

Originally posted by star in a jar
Here you go.

Real life example- Warning- m@r1ju@n@ related content

www.420magazine.com...

Wow!

If only I grew! But really, I have seen this and it is awesome. Far above my budget.

[edit on 27-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

[edit on 27-2-2010 by A-E-I-Owned-You]

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You


Just a few thoughts:

1. If on a hill and you can, use passive solar for that area of the country.
2. Use a composting toilet to reduce water. You can build one yourself a whole lot cheaper ($200-$300 vs $1500 - $3,000) using an RV toilet and composting area beneath.
3. Most people have given up on the underground home type thing and now are going to the super-insulated "regular" type home. For the following reasons - engineering a safe underground home that meets codes cost money, underground homes must use an insulating barrier anyways to stop condensation on the floor, walls, ceiling. Contractors are not used to building underground homes. Building inspectors are usually not familiar with underground home construction.
4. For your purpose you might want to consider a home over the top of an underground "safe" room.
5. You might want to check out WWW.motherearthnews.com for great info. There is also a web site (can't find my link) to a company that specializes in prefab underground bunkers for various size groups.

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You


For building access and access to a computer, generator room, food storage, etc. You might want to look at biometric access control. My company did the early work on fingerprint based systems and later retina scan systems in the 1980's. I sold the company in 1988. They offer a superior level of "control". I developed an advanced system for government/military use. The system had a "use under duress" feature. Under normal conditions you would use your left index finger. If some one put a gun to your head you would use your right index finger.

It would allow you in but not befor those inside were notified you had a problem. The military even wanted assurance that a detached finger could not be used. So we incorporated pulse, thermal and capacitance sensors into the reader. And yes they were really worried about the last issue.

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You


don,t get upset . i was trying to shock you into rethinking about your project.
substructure and load bearing walls of any building is vitally important
you cannot cut corners on materials or quality.
and even more so if you are building a safety refuge.
and building a house over the top of it.

have you thought about subcontracting the critical work out to professionals and concentrating on the fitting out of the shell ?

For the walls, I plan to use concrete, scrap steel I can find or buy cheap, and a strange idea I have.
They sell this stuff that is metal pieces to put in the concrete to help reinforce it better.

If by stuff that is metal pieces you are refering to Rebar,
you are in over your head.

Not trying to be negative, but, as someone else said, that comment does indicate your current ability to construct.

Regarding your air filtration system (flow in either direction) I would strongly suggest you look into a Plenun chamber styled system.


The idea behind it is keeping air pressure in your bunker higher than the surrounding air pressure.
Link

They are relatively easy, and cheap to do yourself, once you understand the principle behind it.

Also, keep in mind that sand is cheap, and is tremendously effective at stopping rounds, six inches will stop most rounds, including the .308.

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You

Maybe an old military diesel engine fashioned to create my power and maybe run it on biodiesel! That would be pretty awesome and worth the work/smell! I hear those deuce and a half engines can run on anything. Maybe one could be turned into a generator? I am not sure.

Here you go.
This is regarding a small engine (lawnmower), but with a little know-how, could be upsized very easily.

Convert an engine to generator

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You

I think I could put the pieces right into the concrete walls before it dries and then just work with it when its all dry cutting and gluing to make it work right.

Funny story.
Just last week I was cleaning out my ductwork, using a shopvac.
Every once in a while I'd suck something up that would plug my vacuum hose, then, thump through.

Happened a few times.

Later, cleaning out the vac, low and behold, two sparrows and a few chipmunks.

You will want access to your ventilation. Putting the PVC in the concrete will significantly reduce the strength of the concrete, and I guarantee the the first failures in your foundation will be right along those pipes.

Besides, you run the PVC within your foundation to "protect" it, right?
Well, when you run your PVC underground 100 or 1000 ft. away from your bunker to conceal it (hint, hint), you don't plan on encasing that in concrete, do you?

reply to post by A-E-I-Owned-You


I forgot one other thing.
Very important, before you even bother digging, contact some contractors or local government resources regarding the water table in your area.

Bad news on that front could put the brakes on your whole plan for an underground bunker.

Okay buddy im going to try and make this sound as nice as i can, so please do not take this personally.
First off, where and how do you plan on moving and finally putting the couple tons of dirt you are going to have? keep in mind 1 ton of dirt is about 40 cubic feet, and that is loose dry soil. So what you would be dealing with is going to be more than that.
and this
www.buylifetime.com...
little tent is 192 cubic feet. Now i am thinking you are going to want more than that. Since you were going to want a bathroom and a bedroom you do the math and how much dirt you are going to have.

-Ventilation
That way I can adapt to any future issues like being smoked out or something.

Okay if you are living in an underground bunker, if there is smoke by where your air comes in it would just be a waiting game for the people outside. Not to mention if someone was trying to get you out of there that bar then they could just pour something flamable down there and a match.

Plumbing/sewage.

So it is underground and on a slope. So on top of the tons of dirt you are going to have to move you are going to have to dig more to put in sewage pipes. Where are they going to go to? You would be better off getting a septic tank, if you plan on it draining to somewhere else then the EPA is going to be the one smoking you out.

For the walls...

Do not be cheap with your walls and since you are already going to be moving tons of dirt why settle for narrow hallways?

I plan to cover the outside faces of the wall with roofing tar and then tarps for extra water and moisture protection of the concrete.

Dont be cheap, get a penetrating slab sealant. But you will have to make your slabs above ground and put them in place if you plan to seal them. If there is any area on the concrete that is exposed to watter it will all go eventually.

-Electricity. I plan to roll with solar and generators. I basically want to build a separate connected room for the generator(s) and fuel storage. This room or one close will also probably house the ventilation system parts and the water/sewage pumps if needed.

So you want your fuel near your power generators and your ventalation system, and you plan on doing this with scraps you have made your self...
Do yourself a favor, place the fuel far away from any source of potential trouble. If there was a fire down there
1.You would run out of air real quick
2. May prevent you from getting out.

-Heat. I was thinking a wood stove for a very backup method.

no... You would run out of air slowly, while you and your family were getting warm by the nice fire in your underground bunker you guys would start to feel cozy, then sleepy and then we would read about this on the darwin awards.

-Security. Guns and gun ports inside only for choke points and exterior door areas. I just purchased a Cypher industrial grade remote keyless door entry system.

Security is easy, the ancients had this one down a long time ago and no guns needed. I say no guns because if this is going to be done with stuff you have put together yourself. a large calibur round that hits the top may be enough to cave a vital hallway in.
The best security you could have for something like this would be a long hallway that you would be able to seal both ends and wait a couple days for whoever was trying to get in would starve to death. Or you could just hide your bunker well, or you could have something set up so your could make the entrance look caved in.


All in all your current plan looks like it would be the most overpriced coffin you could get.
check out
www.missilebases.com...
The price tags are high but that is what you will end up spending if you do it yourself.
I also highly recomend looking up your local laws, building without a permit in some areas is a big no no and you get in even more trouble if your stuff is not up to code and no offence but i think computer cases in the concrete would probably get a fail on the property inspection. So take a good look at your laws, how much dirt will weigh and where to put it, how much concrete you are going to need and how much that will weigh. I would really look into these thing and if i were you i would hit up a construction forum.