Gates: Europe's demilitarization has gone too far

reply to post by infinite


Its such a touchy subject though..

It will over the next decade.. behind the scenes Integration has been explosive since Lisbon..

All we need is a decent amount of fear mongering, proper collaboration between France, Germany and the UK on the matter alongside a new central command, movement on the Russian security collaboration and a few more "terrorist" attacks alongside mass destabilization in the middle east..

And Voila...

A million soldier, high tech EU army.. circa 2020-2025

reply to post by loner007


I agree with you 100%. That is why i am against the military industrial complex. It's total B.S. The only way to have peace is to make peace, and the only way to make peace is to make friends, and the only way to make friends is to treat them as equals and with respect. That is why America has to hold people at gun point, or 'we saved you... 65 years ago'.

Seems to me the Europeans have forgotten 1939, and that old guy waving that piece of paper saying 'peace in our time' no such thing as peace, I once read that there has been 43 years of peace throughout recorded history, I hope that is not true!

Oh no peace is breaking out, peace is breaking out! Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Jeeze I am guessing the dividend checks from the military industrial complex to the stock holders must have went down half a penny for this level of alarm.

What a world! Be afraid, be very afraid, always, always be very afraid, but don't worry we will protect you!

No wonder Obama wanted to keep Gates on the man's a real go getter!

So, let me get this straight......a man who answers directly to the military industrial complex says that peace is bad for business and Europe is supposed to listen?

Given that Britain and France - two of the senior European nations - have enough nuclear weapons between them to level a very large chunk of the planet, and don't appear to be giving those weapons up any time soon, I don't see how/why Europe needs to break its balls and its bank balance further by providing cannon fodder for sham wars that are started on the pretext of lies or "holier than thou" attitudes.

reply to post by loner007


Let NATO disband. The EU is a basket case and unless they can not get their economic house in order will not be able to fund a reasonable military operation.

Many Europeans don't want a military alliance based in Europe (Oh, I forgot, they love it when the base is in their community and they receive significant payments from NATO and tax benefits).

Disband NATO and leave Europe to fend for itself. Bring the troops home along with the weapons, and defense infrastructure and let the peace loving folks hold hands and try to get along.

When the Russians and Chinese start moving west and align with a nuclear Iran, good luck. We can work with the Chinese and the Russians. Let Europe fend for itself, but when the Balkins are being threatened by troop movements and econonic and energy blockaids and the refugees start flowing into Europe proper, don't call the White House, send peace loving folks over to chat with Putin and Ho and see how far that gets you.

I'm sorry, but there were MEANT to be wars. Without wars we never would have Greek and Roman empires, the United States, a free Japan to name but a few. Peace is terrific, but geopolitics are a requirement for the evolution of the world. All you can do is be prepared to defend yourself. If Europe does not want to defend themselves, so be it. When the 80% of Chinese who live in abject poverty cause a revolution in China and the Chinese result to war to obtain more resources and to distract the average citizen from the miserable lives they have, they will come west. Will that happen,probably and hopefully not, could it happen, yes.

I doubt I'll die within the next few years. I still have life insurance to provide for my family should that happen. Am I happy to pay the premiums? Yes I am.

reply to post by neformore


Star for you, I couldn't have put it better myself!

What Gates is really after is NATO forces to take on more of the wars for Israel and it's lackies, namely the US. The fact that most Europeans seem to be against these wars and don't really want to be a part of them seems lost on him.

The US is stretched and needs NATO to pitch in, freeing up more US troops for for other campaigns. I wonder though when the NATO charter changed to include fighting wars of aggression, against sovereign states who have not attacked any NATO member?

Of course, more wars and more participants means more arms sales, in a perpetual carnage fest for the military industrial machine and it's shareholders and paid for politicians. The fact that our governments already have us, and likely our great great grandchildren. in hock to the bankers matters not as the bankers will gladly bankroll both sides of a conflict to control the aftermath.. it's a win win deal and calls for another large G&T at the club.... while others die.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa is all I can read in your post..

The usual nonsense where you can't see past your own bull#..

The only way we can get rid of the US empire out of the Eurasian landmass is by waiting for it to go broke.. And at the moment, the only thing keeping it afloat is its presence on the landmass securing cheap energy..

Im all up for the US empire to get the hell off my continent.. you won't have any argument from me..

Remember who the global destabilizer for the past decade has been..

reply to post by neformore



And the great irony is that demilitarization is the reason you've been drawn into those wars. If western Europe were not so dependent upon the United States for their defense, they would not feel compelled to sign up for those 'sham wars.'

But from an American perspective, Gates is wrong. The problem isn't European disarmament. The problem is our presence there. The Soviet threat to western Europe has been gone for 20 years. Western Europe no longer needs the United States to subsidize their defense by maintaining substantial troop and equipment levels on the continent. Its past time that we packed up and left.

Originally posted by vor78
The Soviet threat to western Europe has been gone for 20 years.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The best way to bring Russia in from the cold is to stop fighting the cold war. Sadly there are those who seem to want it to continue.

I guess old habits die hard.

It always strikes me as peculiar that Japan and Germany are now regarded as key allies after they were on the opposing side of the most devastating war that the planet has ever seen, and yet Russia is still treated as some kind of pariah by alot of people.

The Russians have learnt that everyone speaks the language of money these days, not the language of political ideology. Even the Chinese do although they hide it well.

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

See it is that kind of thinking that gets people fighting. We are an evolved species. If fighting was in our genes we would be in the forest with the chimpanzees and gorillas. Instead we have all this technology and history of violence.

As an evolved species, don't you think that this nonsense must stop sometime? I mean I do understand that weapons keep us safe, but they also destroy our lives. There will come a point in our lives where we must end this violence to survive. But in your state of mind we will die off much before that period ever comes.

Evolved doesn't mean less dangerous. On the contrary, we are the most dangerous species on this planet. The violence won't end, but we can control it and contain it. That is why we must always be well armed and ready for conflict.

reply to post by neformore


I think the situation is a bit different given the length of time involved and the way it ended. Most of the current populations of all countries involved were not alive to see WW2 and unlike the Cold War, the end came with the total and complete military defeat and unconditional surrender of the aggressors. When WW2 was over, it was clearly over.

By contrast, Americans and Russians were taught to hate each other for almost 50 years. Unfortunately, I think relations will remained strained until the old leadership of both sides, the ones who grew up in the 60s and 70s, dies off and is replaced with a younger generation that doesn't have that deeply rooted mistrust of the other side.

The fact that both sides still maintain 3,000+ nuclear warheads on active status doesn't help each's perception of the other, either.

[edit on 23-2-2010 by vor78]

Gates is right to criticise the Europeans.

The lack of British helicopters in Afghanistan is making allied troops more vulnerable to roadside bombs. The new European A400M transport aircraft is 4 years late and perhaps as much as €11 billion over budget. The A330 MRTT tanker aircraft is 2 years late too. It's a wonder his criticisms have been so diplomatic, European cooperative military projects are invariably over budget, years late and with an end product which doesn't come up to the standard of its American equivalent.

But Gates misses the big point. Most Europeans don't think fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan is defending the member countries of the NATO alliance in any way whatever. And he won't get unanimity if he thinks he & Mrs Clinton are going to be able to bounce the Europeans into changing NATO's mojo. NATO is a defensive alliance, we defend each other if attacked ; travelling the world to wage pre-emptive wars won't cut it with most Europeans.

If he thinks to the contrary he's in for a major disappointment.

Originally posted by loner007

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by pazcat
Yep, he is right. Europe needs to arm up and man up.
Who knows what the U.S are capable of these days.

I'm American, but thats actually true too. Nations can radically change in a short time. Alliances can collapse and lead to all sorts of bad things.

Again to have peace, one must prepare for war.

Typical american drivel. Europeans are not too keen going into other peopels land and occuping it unlike Americans and if we want world peace maybe we should start by getting rid of the American war machine.

Typical European drivel. Short memories about who started both major World Wars in the 20th century. (hint: Its wasn't America)

Next time another major war starts in Europe please handle it yourselves. Don't ask the "American war machine" for assistance.

Originally posted by Erasurehead
Typical European drivel. Short memories about who started both major World Wars in the 20th century. (hint: Its wasn't America)

Next time another major war starts in Europe please handle it yourselves. Don't ask the "American war machine" for assistance.

Not THATS typical American drivel..

Give it a well deserved rest please..

And yes.. the next time I start a World War.. you don't need to jump in

Originally posted by Ulala
NATO is a defensive alliance, we defend each other if attacked ; travelling the world to wage pre-emptive wars won't cut it with most Europeans.

If he thinks to the contrary he's in for a major disappointment.

Best point of the thread..

The fact is though that the EU will and needs to create its own army and security policy with Russia over the next decade because of the spill over in the Middle East..

This will of course be completely intertwined with NATO..

This is all slowly happening now as the signs are obvious..

Yes Europe has demilitarized way too much for its economic strength but a pro war Yank is not going to get through to anyone over here..

The progress will be made with Russia once the US calms down on the eastern Europe destabilization.

[edit on 23/2/10 by Dermo]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


"It became necessary to destroy the town to save it" - unnamed US major to AP correspondent Peter Arnett, after the establishment of a "free fire zone" at Bến Tre

"War is Peace" - George Orwell, "1984"

Gates can pout and snivel all he wants, and the US militarists who bounce their balls to the sound of dead Arabs hitting the sand can whine with him. I don't see how this is a problem, however.

reply to post by Erasurehead


Next time there is a major war in Europe, the Russians will win it. Again.

Seriously, learn some history before embarassing yourself.

Originally posted by Ulala
Gates is right to criticise the Europeans.

The lack of British helicopters in Afghanistan is making allied troops more vulnerable to roadside bombs.

Well, kind of, unless you factor into the equation the fact that what makes allied troops vulnerable to roadside bombs in Afghanistan is that they are there in the first place.

Should they, in all honesty, actually be there still? Ain't no-one found Bin Laden and thats what they went for.

Same with Iraq. Where are those WMD's? Not there.

What actual benefit from these actions has there been to the people of the countries they are serving?

NATO is a defensive alliance, we defend each other if attacked ; travelling the world to wage pre-emptive wars won't cut it with most Europeans.

If he thinks to the contrary he's in for a major disappointment.

Exactly.

I know its hard for some Americans to understand the idea that Europe doesn't particularly want to jump onboard the war gravy train these days, but lets face it, if several large cities in the US had been flattened, half the continent occupied by one army, liberated by several others and then been the site of the largest policial ideology standoff in history that lasted 45 years and could have gone hot and laid waste to the whole place again, I doubt many folks over there would have the notion to do it either.



[edit on 23/2/10 by neformore]

NATO's only agenda is secure the hegemony for profiteers. EU nations should make their own army separate from NATO which would work for their interest and not get involved as "poodle".

reply to post by Dermo


The EU will economically implode within 3 years. If it does not implode it will be a Franco/German led entity with states like Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Greece having but marginal sovereignity.

The greatest destablising force for the past 100 years has been a weak Europe who is unwilling both politically and militarily able to defend itself