Roswells scapegoat Project Mogul partners with Brooklyn toy maker???

My question and starting point of this thread is why would one of the most secret government projects employ the services of a brooklyn toy maker very odd to say the least.
Was the mob involved in early CIA projects?
Was this toy maker real or made up as cover to make light of the ufo theory that developed from the roswell incident?
Is this part of a deeper conspiracy ?
I wish i had more evidence rather then questions i just found this partnership to be very unlikely and am curious if others see that this toy company may have been used as a cover so the alien writing on the I Beams found at Roswell would seem incignificant?
Well i hope there are ATSERS who can give this topic more light..
Be Well

[edit on 23-2-2010 by triplescorpio]

[edit on 23-2-2010 by triplescorpio]

[edit on 23-2-2010 by triplescorpio]

reply to post by triplescorpio

I can only say based on my personal experience working for a company that on rare occasion supplied parts to the defense industry, we received orders for subassemblies and made them to the drawings and specifications provided, but we had no idea what the final assembly the parts were used in was for. But that was more recent and I'm not sure if that's how things worked in 1947.

The defense industry could build a fairly complicated piece of secret technology, and send lots of subassembly orders to lots of different subcontractors and none of them would have any idea what the final assembly was like, only their component.

But I wondered the same thing, whey did they pick a toy company? I have no idea why, but it would be interesting to know the reason. If it had been during wartime I would have guessed they used a toy company because the regular defense contractors were working over capacity already so they got other industries outside the defense industry, to contribute to the wartime effort. And maybe even though 1947 was after the war they continued using the supplier they started using during the war? Just a guess, but I don't really know.

Maybe it had something to do with thermoplastic mold injection. These toy companies can quickly pump their product out, and if it needs to change, that can quickly be adapted as well.
IMHO
Violater1 out.

Not unusual, especially for that time period. People hold the defense industry (even now days) to a standard that just doesn't exist, trust me.

In that day age the military procured supplies and sub-assemblies from places that would surprise you, this being one of them.

Not that this has anything to do with Roswell being true or not, but if your trying to prove Roswell was true, then you should look elsewhere, this line of thought is a dead end.

reply to post by triplescorpio


The main thing that caught my attention was how they used the toy companys use of scotch tape with flowers on it supposedly and said the desert heat caused the ink to bleed through and create an image on the i beams . This made witness accounts seemingly true but mis informed by saying the symbols were just from the tape the original report was that the i beams were made of light metal not wood...
it just seems conveiniant that the government came up with this just after the story was starting to develope into a conspiracy.

I think it'd be interesting to know the name of the toy manufacturer. In the sources I've read the name is absent. It's described as a New York/ Manhattan toy company...knowing the name of the firm might explain why or how they came to supply the tape. Cronyism, nepotism, convenience...it could be any reason...but still interesting to know. I'd be very surprised if the information isn't available online somewhere. Roswell investigators have been extremely thorough in the last 30 years...just because my quick look hasn't learned the name doesn't mean it isn't out there....

An interesting advantage of knowing the supplier, might support or detract from a lot of accounts. For example, if the tape was in widespread supply in toy departments and they were known to contract to military...it would support the Mogul explanation. If it is only known via the Mogul explanation...that'd raise doubts...

The witnesses have recalled small pink/purple "flowers" that appeared to be some sort of writing that couldn't be deciphered. These figures were printed on tape that sealed the seams of the of the radar target. The radar targets, sometimes called corner reflectors, had been manufactured during or shortly after World War II, and due to shortages, the manufacturer, a toy company, used whatever resources were available. This toy company used plastic tape with pink/purple flowers and geometric designs in the construction of its toys and, in a time of shortage, used it on the government contract for the corner reflectors. A depiction of these figures, as described by C.B. Moore, is shown in Attachment 10.

and....

In fact, Trakowski distinctly remembered the figures on the tape because, when the targets first were produced, much fanfare was made over the use of a toy manufacturer for production. He related that a fellow USAAF officer, John E. Peterson, monitored the procurement of the targets and "thought it was the biggest joke in the world that they had to go to a toy manufacturer" to make the radar targets and an "even a bigger joke when... the reflecting material on the balsa frames was some kind of a pinkish purple tape with hearts and flowers

Synopsis of Balloon Research Findings: 1st Lt James McAndrewe

Marcell recalled it differently...

"I may not remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, but the events of 50 years ago are as clear as crystal....I even remember the telephone number at our Roswell address so I do have a quirky memory which sometimes gets me into trouble with the skeptics because they say it isn't possible for me to remember the details that I do" The symbol that he remembers best was a figure of a truncated pyramid with a ball floating over it. "I remember it best because it resembled a seal balancing a ball on its nose", he said.

Even if weather-faded, pink tape of flowers and hearts should not create a lot of confusion. If that tape is attached to balsa stints...it's a far cry from metal I-Beams with 'hieroglyphs' running along them. As ever, we can focus on one little detail of Roswell...balance all the different views and be left with standardised confusion. It's a mess of a subject!

Here's one image that is supposed to be one of the I-Beams...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/179d300764e2.jpg[/atsimg]



[edit on 23-2-2010 by Kandinsky]

Originally posted by Kandinsky
I think it'd be interesting to know the name of the toy manufacturer. In the sources I've read the name is absent. It's described as a New York/ Manhattan toy company...knowing the name of the firm might explain why or how they came to supply the tape.

Moore recalls that the reinforcing tape used on NYU targets had
curious markings. "There were about four of us who were involved in
this, and all remember that our targets had sort of a stylized,
flowerlike design. I have prepared, in my life, probably more than a
hundred of these targets for flight. And every time I have prepared
one of these targets, I have always wondered what the purpose of that
tape marking was. But . . . a major named John Peterson, laughed . . .
and said 'What do you expect when you get your targets made by a toy
factory?'"

www.ufoevidence.org...

What was the name of the toy factory ? Here is a possible answer :
www.roswellproof.com...

From the Bergen Evening Record, July 12, 1947, it is known that Victor Hoeflich is a Brooklyn manufacturer who claims 1. to know what the flying saucers are : his corner reflectors 2. to build them for the Signal Corps.

There is no clear connection to the AAF or NYU, but the Signal Corps was the first progenitor of the USAF. So maybe that's a link after all.
en.wikipedia.org...

Maybe Hoeflich read about the flowery tape in Mac Brazel's description published July 9th and recognized his uniquely decorated reflectors ? He was the founder and director of the Merri-Lei company. Just google "Victor Hoeflich Merri-Lei".

Researchers have been unable to identify the company, maybe because it
never was in Manhattan. It was in Brooklyn, but there was a retail shop owned by the company in Manhattan.

A friend found this address in 1935 Disney ads :
American Merri-Lei corp. Party Goods
28 West 23rd Street, New York
www.antiquetoycollections.info...

If you can find more information about this shop (did it still exist in 1947) it would be useful.

[edit on 2010-2-24 by nablator]

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Here's one image that is supposed to be one of the I-Beams...

According to Jesse Marcel Junior, 11 year old at the time, it was a metallic I-beam. No one else saw an I-beam. Even his father contradicted him, he said the section was rectangular.

[edit on 2010-2-24 by nablator]

Originally posted by nablator

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Here's one image that is supposed to be one of the I-Beams...

According to Jesse Marcel Junior, 11 year old at the time, it was a metallic I-beam. No one else saw an I-beam. Even his father contradicted him, he said the section was rectangular.

Maybe one other person, 1st Lt. Robert Shirkey, did but your point is valid that the vast majority did not see an i-beam, and yes his own father contradicted him.

Speaking of which here is an excellent resource summarizing witness descriptions, I think this is sort of on-topic as it includes the hierpolyphs left by the tape if seen on the beams.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

1. WOOD-LIKE TAN STICKS OR I-BEAMS WITH "HIEROGLYPHICS"

Loretta Proctor: Neighbor of rancher Mack Brazel; hard, uncuttable, unburnable balsa woodlike dowel
Bill Brazel Jr.: Son of Brazel; hard, uncuttable, balsa woodlike stick
Major Jesse Marcel: Roswell chief of intelligence; hard, uncuttable, unburnable balsa woodlike rectangular beams with purplish hieroglyphics (also some testimony from his wife Viaud Marcel about hieroglyphics); drawing
Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr.: Marcel's son; metallic I-beam with purplish heiroglyphics; drawing
New! Lt. Jack Trowbridge: Saw "girders" with "hieroglyphics" like "owls" at Marcel's house
1st Lt. Robert Shirkey: Roswell acting operations officer; saw metallic I-beam with purplish hieroglyphics being loaded onto Marcel's B-29
New! Brig. Gen. Steven Lovekin: Yardstick-like metallic beam with "encryptions" from a New Mexico crash shown him in a 1959 Pentagon briefing. Military still trying to decipher.
New! Steve Lytle: Said his mathematician father was tasked with deciphering the I-beam symbols
Charles Schmid: Allegedly on debris field; large woodlike beam with flower drawings
Albert Bruce Collins: Allegedly a Berkeley metallurgist examining debris; rumors of metal-like wood
Walt Whitmore Jr. (AKA "Reluctant"): Son of Roswell radio station KGFL owner; woodlike beams with writing
Bessie Brazel Schreiber: Mack Brazel's daughter; kite-like sticks with rubber foil attached
Cpt. Sheridan Cavitt: Roswell chief of counterintelligence; bamboo-like sticks; no hieroglyphics
W/.O Irving Newton: Gen. Ramey's weather officer; tough balsa sticks with faded purplish symbols
Charles Moore: Former Project Mogul balloon engineer; radar target description; drawing
Press reports

4. TAPE-LIKE MATERIAL
(AND "HIEROGLYPHICS", FLOWER PATTERNS)

Bessie Brazel Schreiber: Daughter of rancher Mack Brazel; tape with pastel flowers or designs
Bill Brazel Jr.: Brazel's son; father told him of petroglyph-like "figures" on beams
Loretta Proctor: Brazel neighbor; Brazel speaking of tape with purplish figures or hieroglyphics
Lorraine Ferguson: Sister of Mack Brazel; brother spoke of "writing" like Japanese/Chinese
Mack Brazel newspaper quote: Scotch tape and tape with flower patterns
United Press quote: Flowered paper tape and initials D.P.
Skeptical explanation for debris:
Col. Albert Trakowski: Project Mogul Project Director; radar targets used purplish-pink tape with flower and heart symbols on it.
Charles Moore: Mogul engineer; used white or clear tape with flower-like designs on it.
Col. Sheridan Cavitt: Roswell counterintelligence chief; denied seeing any flowered tape on debris field.
Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr.: Son of Roswell intelligence chief; denied seeing any tape; hieroglyphics were part of beam that he saw

What is your assessment of the American Merri Lei Corp, is it the one that pre-produced the reflectors ? The existence of a New York toy company is often denied, as it is supposed to be part of the cover-up and not exist at all. If the toy company that made the reflectors for Mogul could be identified without a reasonable doubt, it would boost the flower tape theory of the USAF.

David Rudiak writes that what the director of Merri-Lei was doing in July 1947 is already "suggesting a deliberate and coordinated attempt to debunk".
www.roswellproof.com...

He's not even making the connection between Victor Hoeflich and his toy company.

Could further investigation find other links between Merri-Lei and the Mogul project ?

For the moment we have two links :
- The toy company was in Brooklyn but had an address in Manhattan (at least in 1935).
- The director claims to have produced reflectors for the US Army, Signal Corps.

[edit on 2010-2-24 by nablator]

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Now thats the kind of detail i am so interested in i really have to put more time into this area of mogul the manufacturers and the people behind the production something is just so odd about this partnership at least to me..

[edit on 24-2-2010 by triplescorpio]

Originally posted by nablator
David Rudiak writes that what the director of Merri-Lei was doing in July 1947 is already "suggesting a deliberate and coordinated attempt to debunk".
www.roswellproof.com...

I read that link, and what I don't get is, if it's a deliberate and coordinated effort to debunk, so what?

As far as I can tell, it needed some debunking. In the accounts I've read of the time, Arnold's sighting was on June 24, 1947, and after that people started seeing "saucers" everywhere. So an effort on July 11 to show people that there were other things in the sky besides flying saucers doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. It's interesting if the toy company was involved in the demonstration, as they could certainly do a demonstration without the toy company. However since the toy company made the targets, I don't find it particularly odd that they were involved, and so I guess the whole circumstances don't seem all that odd to me, maybe I'm missing Rudiak's point.

As far as I can tell, years later Mantell died trying to chase one of the balloons, so that shows me that people were seeing balloons and thinking they were UFOs or flying saucers, even a trained pilot.

Your comment about some people questioning the existence of the toy company is interesting, I hadn't heard that. But Rudiak seems to accept their existence, though even he doesn't name the company that made the targets in that link you posted.

Originally posted by triplescorpio
Now thats the kind of detail i am so interested in i really have to put more time into this area of mogul the manufacturers and the people behind the production something is just so odd about this partnership at least to me.

I'm glad you found that helpful. Well if you think it's odd that they used a toy company to make the targets, let me ask you, what other kind of company would you expect to make the targets? Keep in mind the defense industry was over capacity making stuff for the war effort so it makes sense to get other industries involved.

This nice little old lady I know who has been a housewife her whole life even learned how to weld and did some welding during the war. Knowing that lady, personally I find that story even more bizarre than the toy company story as I can't picture her welding, but it's true, strange stuff happened during the war that we who weren't there can hardly appreciate, material shortages, labor shortages, production capacity shortages, rationing, etc. Once you factor that all in, the toy company, or any other industry outside the defense industry, could be involved to help make stuff for the war.

[edit on 24-2-2010 by Arbitrageur]

Yes, it isn't that odd that a radar reflector was manufactured by a toy company. The structure is similar to a kite. In a time of shortage, using the tape with flower patterns instead of a more serious one is not so unlikely.

The "attempt to debunk" is a bit odd, but you have to consider the context. During the 1947 wave, flying saucers were a matter of national interest, and very popular. People wanted and expected answers very soon. So anyone who had anything to say about them got attention from the public (the demonstration was done in an amusement park) and from the press.

Today we wonder how people could not tell the difference between a flying saucer and a wrecked balloon. In the context of the 1947 wave, a flying saucer was a novelty, an unknown, something that didn't have the alien connotation and domed disk shape yet. It didn't have to be round, as attested by the FBI memo and other sources (other recovered radar targets by civilians). A hexagonal flying saucer made of sticks and paper-backed aluminium foil didn't sound as crazy then as it sounds now. Anything odd tumbling out of the sky was deemed to be a possible flying saucer.

I just want to make sure that the Mogul corner reflectors were made by this toy manufacturer. It seems likely but the evidence is a bit flimsy. How could one investigate about it ? The trail is cold after 63 years.

reply to post by nablator


I am understanding of material shortages howeve this whole situation seems very much overkill when there is no mystery people do not dwell as they have on this subject for so long.
theres an awful lot of gathered testimony only to support scotch tape on balsa wood if it were only that i find it hard to beleive that there would be such a lenghty papper trail to follow even a child knows what wood feels and looks like.

seems fisshy at best?????

Be Well

Originally posted by triplescorpio
theres an awful lot of gathered testimony only to support scotch tape on balsa wood if it were only that i find it hard to beleive that there would be such a lenghty papper trail to follow even a child knows what wood feels and looks like.

seems fisshy at best?????

Before we had disclosure, it was obvious that Jesse Marcel was telling the truth that the weather balloon story was a coverup. In this environment, claims that the wood wasn't really wood and the foil wasn't really foil could take on epic distortions without too much controversy because everyone knew the official story was false. So yes that's why everything seems fishy.

Once we had disclosure that it WASN'T a weather balloon after all, then all the stories about wood not being wood and foil not being foil had to be reconsidered in light of the disclosed explanation of Mogul. Even if you take these accounts at face value, like Marcel's claim that you could hit the foil with a sledgehammer and nothing would happen, well I can do that with foil today and make the same claim. A sledgehammer doesn't do much to foil.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


i am still convinced there is more to this story then anyone could fathom the fact is nododys story align 100% and the os is simply the iceberg creeping with a huge undisclosed portion lurking below.

when i was 5 i was building models and my dad if he had handed me an object certainly wouldve identified it for my confused eyes. i see that his man was also a decent human by all accounts and if it were explainable would never had let his child be mislead in such a public way.
still very Fishy fishy lots of words for such a simple item just balsa wood? and tape? then half the govenment agents in the country become heated and involved doesnt add up?

Be Well

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
Not unusual, especially for that time period. People hold the defense industry (even now days) to a standard that just doesn't exist, trust me.

In that day age the military procured supplies and sub-assemblies from places that would surprise you, this being one of them.

Not that this has anything to do with Roswell being true or not, but if your trying to prove Roswell was true, then you should look elsewhere, this line of thought is a dead end.

There was a period where Singer [Sewing Machine] was contracted to produce M1911 pistols. Shot a few myself.

Contracts go to the lowest bidder with the production capability.

According to Jesse Marcel Junior, 11 year old at the time, it was a metallic I-beam. No one else saw an I-beam. Even his father contradicted him, he said the section was rectangular.

General Exon also backed this up...

www.roswellproof.com...

There are still so many holes in Mogul....

1. No prior or later recovery required flights to AMC and foreign tech bases as is DOCUMENTED for whatever was recovered near Roswell.

2. It is very unreasonable to assume military intel officers could somehow misidentify the rather mundane materials used to construct Mogul 4 (the flight the military claims was recovered).

3. Mogul 4 ONLY fits the timeline if considering Brazel's recanted timeline, after being in military custody.

4. Only the PURPOSE of Mogul was classified...the parts were all mundane and "off the shelf"...and certainly not "otherworldly". Even a kid can identify the foil paper (if he's ever eaten a Hershey bar)...

Flowery tape from an unnamed supplier vs. depositions by military officers.... Hmm...I'll go with the officers on that one.

reply to post by nablator


1940 Federal Census - Bronx Boro New York City, Bronx Co, New York April 3, 1940
73. Hoeflich Victor, head, 44 years old, married, completed 4 years of high school, born Pennsylvania, Occupation: General Manager, Paper Goods.
74. Hoeflich Marion, wife, 39 years old, married, completed 8 years of school, born Russia

1942 World War II Registration Card Serial No. U2831
Victor Theodore Hoeflich
64 Jesup Place
born Jul 8, 1896
Employer's Name: American Merrilei Corporation 621 Sixth Ave., Man., NY

reply to post by nablator


1940 Federal Census - Bronx Boro New York City, Bronx Co, New York April 3, 1940
73. Hoeflich Victor, head, 44 years old, married, completed 4 years of high school, born Pennsylvania, Occupation: General Manager, Paper Goods.
74. Hoeflich Marion, wife, 39 years old, married, completed 8 years of school, born Russia

1942 World War II Registration Card Serial No. U2831
Victor Theodore Hoeflich
64 Jesup Place
born Jul 8, 1896
Employer's Name: American Merrilei Corporation 621 Sixth Ave., Man., NY