Fore Will (origin at its finest)

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
You can argue that it takes will to create. However, you're presupposing creation. This leads to a natural paradox; if there is a being with the intent and will to create, then he must have originated from ANOTHER being with the intent and will to create, then he must have originated from ANOTHER being with the intent and will to create, then he must have originated from ANOTHER being with the intent and will to create, then he must have originated from ANOTHER being with the intent and will to create, then he must have originated from ANOTHER being with the intent and will to create... ad infinitum.

Your creator has answered nothing at all, simply given rise to an unanswerable chain of nonsense, every scrap of it based on your own ego and no supporting evidence.

[edit on 24-2-2010 by TheWalkingFox]

Yeap.
It's just turtles all the way down.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Pauligirl


This is one interpretation….. but not what I am referring to...

It is the structure of the Paradox that allows interaction...

The paradox I am referring to involves geometric logic and has nothing at all to do with metaphysics...

But I read your link... Not what I am talking about...

Originally posted by The Teller
The best way to prove ones existence is to invent a detractor to push to prove. You then have to make the detractor prove they exist to confirm you invented them. Once you have established this dialogue you then have to question if somebody else, like me, invented both of you as opposing view to validate my own existence to myself.

It's easier just to prove them right. If someone proves themselves wrong while I try to prove them right, then well, ... well... well. It just needs some time to make it obvious.

In this case, Matrix Traveler doesn't seem to have a similar personality as Boy.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
reply to post by Golden Boy

 

Okay, look. If you want to live entirely inside your own head and declare that everything you believe is true simply because you say it is, go ahead.

Yes U are definitely a bot .... as U assume too much...

I am Not in a human head as you believe in ignorance but merelly experience this little world from outside it...

You only know the physical world so called, because you are Unaware of LIFE... Or where your Awareness has come from... Pehaps you lack Awareness???

You follow other humans like a sheep to the slaughter...

That is the ones you want to... because U know no better...

I can't help it if you are only a program...

If you want to live inside a delusion, go ahead. Go sit in the corner and tell yourself that you don't need to eat - after all, the need to eat is subjective, and therefore isn't really true. Those of us who live in the real world are gonna go get some stuff done.
Also, you still have not presented a single scrap of evidence to support your assertions regarding will as the ultimate cause.

Originally posted by dzonatas
In this case, Matrix Traveler doesn't seem to have a similar personality as Boy.

I have split personality disorder.

ETA: Also, we're getting pretty far off topic here. This thread is about will as the ultimate origin. This discussion of whether or not it's possible to prove anything, while interesting, is not what this thread is about.
So, to get back on topic: What evidence is there for will as the ultimate origin? Come to that, what evidence is there for will?

[edit on 2/24/2010 by Golden Boy]

reply to post by Golden Boy


You must be a bot as U can't read....

They would have to have to be two distinct personalities to distinguish between real people and invented personality.



Only in fooling yourself can you prove you are real.


I can think of a stone but a stone can't think of me. But stones exist but do I?



This and loads of other such rubbish...

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


Don't just assert. Explain.

reply to post by The Teller


It seems like coincidence why there are other threads about how there are legal battles over the word corporation and who can vote, or act like a person.

As long as they aren't fully insane and can respect not to make any of their secondary personalities into slaves, then maybe they could be considered something of individualism.

Maybe for the good if businesses actually only speak and interact through a single person, or a single avatar, to... outside their corporal business. It actually might evolve capitalism and focus their "will" easier.

[edit on 24-2-2010 by dzonatas]

reply to post by Golden Boy


oops... do I detect an effect in U ??? perhaps U may not be a bot after all ???

Seriously I am just playing with you, trying to get you to prove you exist.

But I see you are unable to do this, which just goes to prove you are bent on Denying LIFE and are just a part of that Huge Conspiracy against LIFE...

You see it is often Not easy to prove some things....

I do believe the OP is onto it but needs to dig a little deeper but that does Not mean he is Not heading in the right direction and that is what this thread is about...

And NOT you or me....

So let's get back to Will and whether Will is the Root or not ???


[edit on 24-2-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by dzonatas


Ah but you're assuming that not only do we exist but those external building blocks that make our personal universe also exist.


If my will deems me to go about my life in a normal fashion then I do. But if layered on top of that my will ALSO forces me to create another world where I fear conspiracy and outside forces then I will do that also.



So I am either a slave to myself (or will) or a slave to an invented self so I can go about my life in peace. Either one of those may be the reality and the other the fiction.

If I can construct even two personalities. The one I call reality and the one which is my metaphysical self, my thoughts, philosophies etc then which one of them dreams at night?

And is that person in my dreams another reality or is it a fusion of both the outer selves?

I may wake from a nightmare and my other self has thoughts of external dangers and conspiracies that are building against me. Yet if I have a nice dream my 1st self will feel happy about my normal life.

Maybe dreaming is a way both these constructs fight out who will be in charge the following morning. Which personality will drive the vessel that I occupy if you will.


And if I won the dream war and go about quite happily whose to say I will remain in charge? What if I miss my train or step in a puddle? What if I feel sick or lose my wallet? What if none of these external factors are accidents but my own conspiracy by my other self so it can take over.

What if depression is just the fall out of this war? What if suicide is the end game, total annihilation in a battle royale between them?

What if love, sex family and altruism are the 1st personality winning the war?

reply to post by Golden Boy

Isn't it fun at the zoo when you get to poke the animals with sticks?

Originally posted by Golden Boy
reply to post by The Matrix Traveller
If you want to live entirely inside your own head and declare that everything you believe is true simply because you say it is, go ahead.

Oh he will, he will. So will--for your information--Indigo Child, Badmedia, the worthy Dzontas and pretty much any ATS member whose name includes the word 'Matrix'.

Originally posted by Golden Boy
we're getting pretty far off topic here. This thread is about will as the ultimate origin. What evidence is there for will as the ultimate origin? Come to that, what evidence is there for will?

Yes indeed. Come on, all you cut-price Neoplatonists out there--where's yer evidence?

OP, how about a reply to my earlier post for a kickoff?

reply to post by Astyanax


It's great to see you are still around, haven't heard from you for a while...

You always add some colour to the world...

You wrote....

Isn't it fun at the zoo when you get to poke the animals with sticks?

But aren't you a primate as well as us all???

I'm glad you are in the same cage as the rest of us.

Or are you the self acclaimed zoo keeper...

Hmmmm such deceptions enter some primate brains at times..

Just imagine if you were the only one in the cage, Life would be so boring for you now wouldn't ???

Come on lighten up and learn to laugh at ourselves because the whole of humanity is Lost....including me but I am blessed with being able to accept this.

But can you accept you are totally lost, just the same as the rest of us...

Got to have a laugh now and then, don't be too serious about what you experience... It will pass you know....

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Golden Boy

 

Isn't it fun at the zoo when you get to poke the animals with sticks?

Thought they were called "beatsticks" as they go around in a masquerade, multiple persona, create new avatars, and say they are plague doctors. They carry around the stick, and claim it holds the cure.

If they are confined to the zoo, then at least, yes, they are inside with the rest.

Matrix sums it up of what beatsticks do... they deny life.

reply to post by The Teller


Well, isn't that of interest. When one dreams and they question which one is more real when they awake.

I've had dreams that are more detailed, more vivid, and just everything more, then what generally is called status quo everyday business of life.

For some of us, it's not really a question, it's a wonder, a journey, of when and how.

Single personality, single individual, yet pandimensional.

Those who rely on secondary personalities, to be normal, create the possibility of that the other personality actually might be another lifeform. Two people mixed as one, for example. The question then becomes if there is any will to let both live, concurrently, and separately.

reply to post by dzonatas




Personally though I don't believe in dual personalities and neither does my other self.

reply to post by The Teller




What about twins?

When they show to share similar thoughts even when they don't actually communicate directly to each other in any physical sense, it seems like there is more than meets the eye.

I did create another thread think about twins in a different way:

Pandora's Pyxis: Pandimensionally conjoined twins?

Maybe that answers your dream, your twin lives your dream.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
reply to post by Golden Boy

 

So let's get back to Will and whether Will is the Root or not ???

Yes. Let's.

You claim that will is the "root". What is your evidence for this claim?

Originally posted by dzonatas
Thought they were called "beatsticks" as they go around in a masquerade, multiple persona, create new avatars

So you think I'm a sock puppet of someone else? Who?

and say they are plague doctors. They carry around the stick, and claim it holds the cure.

If they are confined to the zoo, then at least, yes, they are inside with the rest.

Matrix sums it up of what beatsticks do... they deny life.

Except that I haven't denied life. I've merely asked for evidence for your claims. Neither one of you has been able to back them up.

Originally posted by dzonatas
reply to post by The Teller

 

What about twins?

When they show to share similar thoughts even when they don't actually communicate directly to each other in any physical sense, it seems like there is more than meets the eye.

I did create another thread think about twins in a different way:

Pandora's Pyxis: Pandimensionally conjoined twins?

Maybe that answers your dream, your twin lives your dream.

Twins have very, very similar DNA. They are nearly identical at the most basic level. They're probably going to share quite a bit of their ways of thinking. It doesn't mean that they have a telepathic link, just that they think in similar ways.
But if you claim that twins are "pandimensionally joined", what's your evidence for this?

[edit on 2/25/2010 by Golden Boy]

Originally posted by Golden Boy

Originally posted by Jezus
Will is not a "reaction chain set in place"

It is the exact opposite of that...

Actually, will is a reaction chain. We have evidence that it is the chemical reactions taking place in the brain. If you believe that it is something more than that, I must ask again...

Evidence?

That chemical reaction is an arbitrary middle point.

Will is the exact opposite of a "reaction chain set in place" because that is exactly what will is.

I can't provide physical evidence just as I can't prove you have consciousness.

For all I know you are a biological robot without will, and in that case you would be a “reaction chain set in place”.

Originally posted by Jezus
That chemical reaction is an arbitrary middle point.

All the knowledge we have points to the chemical reaction as consciousness in its entirety. If you think that there is something more, present evidence to support that claim.

Will is the exact opposite of a "reaction chain set in place" because that is exactly what will is.

I can't provide physical evidence just as I can't prove you have consciousness.

For all I know you are a biological robot without will, and in that case you would be a “reaction chain set in place”.

Well, yes, essentially I am. So are you. There is no evidence that there is anything beyond the chemical reactions. There is no evidence for free will. So we are all, essentially, just extended chemical reaction chains.