Eating Alices Cookie didnt take me to Wonderland. Stop telling people to avoid medication!!!

Originally posted by (C2C)
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Yeah maybe we should let the medication destory and dumb down the entire population, that way the ones who stay away from medication can inherit the earth as the darwinian approach would suggest.

Nah, im all about helping people. Who do you think educates the doctors!? People think that doctors are so smart just because they have a degree. Just because you have a degree does not mean you are smart because the people who taught you could have givin you all the wrong information thereby making your degree worthless and you not very smart.

Edit for spelling

[edit on 21-2-2010 by (C2C)]

Heres the deal...my mother has to take about 20 pills a day due to a bunch of issues.
She once got tired of taking all these pills daily and stopped..seems she talked to some herbalist conspiracy nut that said the meds were making her unhealthy and was all crap...to drop them all and use the right diet of natural products

a month later she suffered a heart attack...she lived, barely. Seems the lack of meds caused all sorts of issues with her that took her over a year to recover.
She now takes her meds and although suffers fatigue from the mix, she is alive and sharp. 6 years later from the attack and still kicking...luckily that loon didnt kill her else there would potentially be two deaths.

So, I say once again...take the meds if you want...or dont, but know the consequences. You can simply trust the docs (and if they knowingly screw you up, you make millions through malpractice suits), or trust some crackpots saying smart people arent smart because you dont believe meds help. Make sure to get all your arrangements for your funeral and such beforehand.

Reply to SaturnFX

I undersand where your coming from. As I said in my last post, I don't belive in telling people to stop taking meds after they are on them. But I would always suggest that they consult whoever put them on the meds and work out a plan for getting off of them.

Edit: did not reply to SaturnFX

[edit on 21-2-2010 by (C2C)]

Originally posted by Shrukin89
Sometimes you have to listen to your own body instead of a doctor

I really hate when people tell me this. It's typically used as an argument against medications, or certain diets in my case. Just a quick rhetorical question for you: If a heroine addict simply listened to his body, would he ever be clean? No, because withdrawl is hell.

If you've consumed large amounts of carbohydrates throughout your life and you suddenly restrict them you will undoubtedly feel lethargic. It doesn't mean carbohydrate restriction drains your energy, it just means you're body is used to have large doses of sugar everyday. Listening to your body would send you right back to the damaging diet you were consuming previously.

The point is, if your doctor understands what happens inside your body, wouldn't it be smarter to tell him what your body is telling you and then let him evaluate the situation to provide you with the best possible treatment?

Oz, to add to the OP, what we generally see in this forum are individuals who justify their anti-pharmaceutical stance/recommendations with their personal experiences. For whatever reason, people become "experts" based on their anecdotes. People need to get this in their heads: Just because you survived jumping off a 2 story building doesn't mean that I will if I try.

I think welcoming a debate on the topic of avoiding medications is fine as long as the data presented is free of anecdotal evidence. For instance, I think people should avoid statin drugs, but that opinion is based on medical literature on the subject and not my personal experience.

That being said, I think it's absolutely ridiculous for someone who's never been chronically depressed to suggest it's a disease that can be easily overcome without medications. It's not as simple as thinking positively.

Look, everyone knows the dangers of pharmaceuticals. Some people need drugs to treat the side-effects of other drugs. But I think the question really comes down to:

Does the potential benefit outweigh the risk?

That's the question one must ask one's self before submitting to pharmaceutical treatments. It's a question that may vary from person to person. Therefore, your personal experience and opinions should not instigate recommendations, neither of avoidance nor advocacy.

-Dev


[edit on 21-2-2010 by DevolutionEvolvd]

Wow-what I think is irresponsible is pharma companies not releasing the correct info on side effects of meds until it becomes obvious and they have to---anti-depressants can KILL people...you have seen the commercials, now they say "such and such may cause suicidal behavior or a WORSENING of symptoms"---and this is coming from someone who took this medicine before all this info was out....I am lucky to be here between that and another "medical device" but I won't get into that one--just long enough to say it was supposed to be a safe way to prevent pregnancies and turned out into me ending up in Critical Condition---luckily I am angry, therefore not depressed...after all depression is said to be repressed anger and btw I have degrees and personal experience, so THERE

reply to post by SaturnFX

see, problem sorted...world is one moron less to consume its oxygen

Figuring that our oxygen supply works within a symbiotic nature between humans and the plant kingdom...I don't really see why it matters if idiots breathe your air.

Which is what you are insinuating right?

I think that most people can reasonably understand that taking medical advice from a conspiracy forum is a bad idea. That being said, I realize that this comes from the "depression, who has it" thread on BTS and a lot of people on there simply related their experience with depression and how they felt about the medication.

This thread feels like you are saying that you are foolish to not trust a doctor. The problem with that is that there are a lot of studies coming out that show that doctors don't really understand how anti-depressants even work. New tests show that they are as effective as "tic tacs"...
www.newsweek.com...

The Depressing News About Antidepressants
Studies suggest that the popular drugs are no more effective than a placebo. In fact, they may be worse.

that evidence has come with a big asterisk. Yes, the drugs are effective, in that they lift depression in most patients. But that benefit is hardly more than what patients get when they, unknowingly and as part of a study, take a dummy pill—a placebo. As more and more scientists who study depression and the drugs that treat it are concluding, that suggests that antidepressants are basically expensive Tic Tacs.

The problem is that these tic tacs also come with the nasty little side effect that if you stop taking them, the odds of you committing suicide skyrocket. So I don't think it is entirely irresponsible for people *that are depressed* and *have taken the med's*, *felt the side effects*, and *decided that they were better off without them* to offer that info.

So, I 100% agree that people should not take medical advice from a conspiracy forum. I also think that it is irresponsible for people to tell someone else that they should or should not be medicated. By all means, if you are depressed, seek help. Just understand that you owe it to yourself to do a little bit of the research on the risks and rewards of these drugs.

reply to post by mkultraangel

Wow-what I think is irresponsible is pharma companies not releasing the correct info on side effects of meds until it becomes obvious and they have to---anti-depressants can KILL people...you have seen the commercials, now they say "such and such may cause suicidal behavior or a WORSENING of symptoms"

You do realize that everybody's biochemistry is slightly different, both in unique alleles as well as random mixtures of various common genes. Developing any kind of single drug in standardized measured dosages is going to produce different effects in every individual. Sometimes subtly, and sometimes profoundly. Further, it can takes on average about 13 years for a drug to go from pre-clinical to passing Phase III trials. While these trial periods are intended to be as comprehensive as possible, emergent side effects do occur in post-clinical trials wherein controls for overmedication, undermedication, expired medication, mixed medication, environmental exposure, and other factors influence the real-world outcomes that simply cannot be reproduced or foreseen in the lab.

Pharmaceuticals are very much "S*@% Against the Wall" trial & error (as Barry Schuler of SGI puts it). But they are the best solution we currently have. If you have no concept of emergence, then you have no credibility to even begin criticizing pharmaceuticals.

Ironically, there is a better solution out there using designer medicine. Rather than apply a single drug to large population, drugs can now start to be prescribed based on your own unique genetic profile to ensure effectiveness while nearly eliminating side effects. Couple this with gene therapy treatments that fix the genetic cause (rather than patching the problem chemically to invoke a similar chemical effect in your body) - the landscape of medicine is about to alter radically for the better. The major holdup right now is the price per base pair of gene sequencing and a thus far incomplete identification of all genes and how they are expressed. Both of which will be remedied within the next 20 years, but will require patients to have their genetic profile on record, as well as seamless online medical records to synchronize information between various physicians and pharmacies. Two innovations often reviled on these forums.

A current practical application of this technology is the application of certain anesthetics to redheads, as the same gene which codes for pigmentation of the skin and hair also determines how quickly certain common anesthetics are metabolized by the body. As a result, redheads need about 20% more anesthetics than contemporaries. Prior to this discovery, there was a pronounced risk of under-anesthetizing redheads prior to surgery - leading to the rather horrifying position of having conscious sensation of pain without the ability to respond.

I think people should at least give medication a go. Anti-depressants are not designed to make you happy or eliminate all your issues. They are designed to help you to cope with feelings brought on by depression, anxiety and other mental stresses. While they do not help everybody (and can have side-effects in rare cases), results indicate that they are pretty successful at helping people deal with and overcome mental illnesses.

I understand people are suspicious of the Pharmaceutical industry and the profits they rake in every year. I accept you might think they do not really work. But if other people have been prescribed medication by a mental health professional, why not let them give it a go? Medications such as Anti-depressants have the potential to change somebody's life for the better. They've had a very positive effect on my own life and that of certain family members too.

Edit: Removed personal experiences.

[edit on 22/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Lasheic
Pharmaceuticals are very much "S*@% Against the Wall" trial & error (as Barry Schuler of SGI puts it). But they are the best solution we currently have.

Or rather, the best solution the drug companies are allowing us to take. As a poster in the thread said earlier, humanity would be much better off if big pharma didn't own the patent on nearly every natural plant with medical benefit.

I don't know where OzWeatherman got the notion that there's thousands of people on ATS telling people to stop taking their medication. I guess it must be somewhere in Wanderland. When you are viewing threads where people are telling you not to take anti-depressants or flu vaccinations, it isn't because the medicine itself isn't beneficiary -- it's all the crap they put in it. Like with disinformation, they put all the necessary good things mixed with the bad. What most people are arguing is to take out all the mercury and other brain-calcifying substances out of the medicine and leave the stuff that works.

Also, I hope somebody brought up our diets being a factor in our poor health. Maybe the reason half of America is depressed and needs to be on prescription drugs is because we don't eat the same way we used to and are missing a lot of vitamins and nutrients that make our bodies function properly. Whatever the case, arguing about it on a message board will do no good, but I suppose threads like these are nice to get things off your chest.

heres my 2 cents on this debate. I have a mental health disorder, borderline personality. now. i went to my GP to talk to him about the depression i was experiencing and he put my on effexor xr. this drug could not have harmed me more if the pharm companies had been trying. It gave me extreme anxiety, worsened my depression 10 fold (i felt very very suicidal), and i started self harming for the first time in my life with these pills.

i was then referred to the mental health clinic at our hospital to see a psychiatrist. this psychiatrist added paxil to the mix to help balance out the anxiety caused by the effexor. after i started taking paxil, my anxiety subsided some, but it was coupled with intense feelings of being invincible and untouchable along with homicidal ideation. yes. for the first time ever, i was fantasizing about killing people. which i found out after some research is a rare side effect of this pill. i still felt suicidal some days, and i was still self harming, actually progressing to more dangerous ways of hurting myself.

after a while effexor and paxil together stopped working..so they tried to experiment with dosages etc, and that only made it worse. then he took me off effexor and put me on wellbutrin, and it was completely ineffective and caused some very intense pain in my lower back (which to this day 1 year and a half later im still dealing with) and when i was coming off of wellbutrin i had 2 psychotic episodes in a matter of 3 days. in one episode i attempted to leave the house with a deadly weapon with the intention of killing someone, and in the second episode 3 days later, i attempted my own life. i barely remember these episodes, i had no control over them at all. about 2 weeks later is when i entered a group therapy program. first a pre-therapy assessment group, and then into my actual intensive therapy program.

so i stayed on paxil for a while until it just stopped working completely. then i had another psychotic breakdown one night that nearly got me arrested. again, i hardly remember what happened. i had ZERO control. so when i saw a doctor, they put me on prozac and i became super manic and did not react well to these pills AT ALL.

eventually my psychiatrist just stopped prescribing meds because they flat out were not helping me. in most cases they made everything so much worse. i was always experiencing extreme side effects that for most people, are very rare.

I was put into a therapy program called DBT or Dialectical behavioural therapy, which was specifically designed for borderline personality. half way through my year in therapy was when i stopped taking the pills. then i focused 100% on my therapy. you know what happened? I stopped self harming. i'd never self harmed before the meds and i havent done it since being off of them. I havent had any more psychotic episodes since i stopped with the meds and i didnt have any of those before the meds either. I put 100% of my effort into therapy. into learning to control my own emotions and my own thoughts and my own behaviours. and im doing ok now. im not by any means cured, but i have a much better grip on myself and the world around me having therapy ONLY and not medication. i found that the medication made it so much harder to find any form of self control. on the medication i would go from zero to psychotic in seconds. im not sure how the meds would have caused that problem, but it was the meds, otherwise i would have had these problems before and after, and i havent. even dealing with a very extreme issue in the summer, when a family member died. i wasnt on pills, and i was in complete control of myself. I handled that situation better than i ever could have thought...relying only on myself and my own personal resources.

i think that while medication may help some people, it does not help ALL people. I think that people should always try what their doctor recommends, but you have to pay attention to yourself too, and how you're reacting to meds. I remember asking my psychologist why medications are so widely prescribed when there are so many complications with them and his reply was that "because sometimes they do work"..so because they *sometimes* work, everyone with problems receives a prescription. i think that therapy should ALWAYS either precede medication, or go along with medication. its much more rewarding to go to therapy for a year and learn to control your disorder yourself. to learn that you ARE strong enough and that you DO have control is far more liberating than simply relying on pills.

while in a way i agree that people shouldnt be taking medical advice from some random poster on ATS, i think that too many people give medications FAR to much credit. meds are NOT for everyone.

and i apologize for such a long post, but i wanted to voice my experience with medication in hopes to open some people's eyes to the fact that they can, for some people, do FAR more harm than good. and also to show people that medication isnt always the only answer. with help from a therapy program you CAN learn to control these things yourself and you CAN learn to live without meds

We know 2 things about drugs (prescription)

1. Sometimes they work well and are well designed with little or no side effects and really are good for what ails you.
2. Sometimes they don't work well and are poorly designed by companies that are only after money. Sometimes sugar pills would work just as well, not to mention that you could be prescribed medication that isn't suitable for you.


We know 2 things about healing(anything from mental to physical)

1. The mind (and spirit?)is very powerful and can produce miracles--and therapy, counceling and various programs can be extremely beneficial as well.
2. Despite #1, most doctors can actually help you somewhat, and not all drugs are bad for you.

Because of the truths of the 4 statements above we can come to a solid conclusion or so:

Sometimes prescription medication really is for your benefit and will serve you well. You shouldn't discourage people taking medication or going to doctors unless you care to show specific information and data You should research both your condition and the drugs that you've been prescribed so that you can make an informed decision, keeping in mind that drugs are not the magic pill so to speak.

Cheers!

[edit on 22-2-2010 by amazing]

[edit on 22-2-2010 by amazing]

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Agree completely!

I suffer depression, and have recently begun antidepressants.. I stuggled for years and did not start taking them for a long time because of other people's views and the views they had passed on to me... "just harden up" "those things will kill ya" "i had a mate that was on those and nothing good came from it.."

Since taking the drugs my view has changed, they dont whack me out like i expected and actually make me just feel normal and balanced. When you first start the drugs there are side effects but they go away after a few weeks.. Looking back now i wish i stopped questioning myself long ago and actually got the medication i obviously needed to balance myself out. Life is good now.,.. its not a magical trip its just normal life which is not what i had before when normal things became a challenge and caused me huge anxiety and stress.

I also feel that most people that have bad experiences are on the wrong medication or abusing it. The thing with these drugs is the docs need to play around with them to get them right for each individual which can take time. My first set made me too anxious although the depression was much better so doc perscribed a 2nd batch to take the anxiety away and since then everything has been perfect, I dont even consider not going to work because of the anxiety etc where i used to push myself to go until the point my body would manifest physical issues... Dont abuse these drugs because i can vouch for them destroying people too but if you know within yourself that somthing is wrong and you are not just looking for an easy way out (doesnt work like that) GO GET HELP, dont question yourself over and over until you think you are fine just because everyone else says you are, you will be amazed that in a few weeks they could have flicked that swithc off in your brain you have been unable to find.

reply to post by (C2C)

If you want to take your medications then that is your right. Those of us who know better and are capable will not touch it because we will use natural means or just plain heal ourselves.

Just out of curiousity, how would you personally heal yourself should you, hopefully not, ever require an organ transplant? Some of those medications are required to help prevent your body from rejecting the organ.

I'm not bashing you - but in a situation like that, again - nothing ill-wished on you, how would you 'heal' yourself naturally?



[edit on 22-2-2010 by noonebutme]

reply to post by OzWeatherman


sounds more weak-spirited if anything,

its all mind over matter, i "thought" i was depressed. Went to the psychiatrist, and after 2 sessions realized wow! im not actually depressed.. this is all extremely lame.

positive thoughts = positive reality.

everything and anything, all comes down to PERSPECTIVE.

or just how you decide or choose to look at a situation.

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
Ahem, have you ever known a person with a serious mental condition? A schizophrenic per chance? One who hears voices telling them to mutilate themselves or that everyone is out to get them?

Yes, I see a lot of schitzo al-Qaeda conspiracy theorists on this very message board. They think terrorist sleeper cells are everywhere and Bin Laden is going to get them. They hear Jesus talking to them and he speaks of The Rapture and a second coming. I really wish these people would get help and take some drugs so they'll realize how sick they are. The sooner they come to accept my version of reality the sooner they can get better.




[edit on 22-2-2010 by Crito]

You should really research into what anti-depressants do to the brain, etc. Anti-depressants are terrible drugs. Keep it all natural. 420 friendly!

I haven't read through the whole topic yet but first. OP. There are a lot of irresponsible conventional doctors out there. Is it responsible for doctors to give patients placebo medication to cover symptoms, rather than find out the root cause?

Do you need medication to change your hormone levels. Absolutely not. There are ways much easier on the body such as taking herbal supplements. Unless your a total idiot you can figure it out yourself.

I don't hold the majority of conventional doctors to know exactly what causes specific diseases and how to cure them on a personal level. There is too much special interest to know who's telling the truth.

If you depend on pharmaceutical medication to functionally live through life, then fail. You're physically the same as when you first entered that door. If you no longer need the medication, then you never needed it in the first place. It was YOU that got yourself over it.

How stupid is it that they give you medication and say not to eat this or that, but they don't tell you what nutrients and food you need to overcome an illness? Your bodies building blocks come from nutrients, not pharmaceuticals and chemicals.

Example.

Do you need strange pills that you don't understand to relieve you of stress? Hell no. Just take some vitamin C. Short nerves and grouchiness is a sign that your lacking vitamin C, so take a gram or 2 and see just how good you feel. I don't need some doctors degree to know this. I know because I've experienced it. If that's not enough then there are countless foods and herbs that have calming side affects. Just take it slowly. Your constantly with yourself so you know whats going on.

A doctor on the other hand you only see once in a blue moon. You expect him to know how your body is going to function moment to moment per variable?

Point is, don't believe what I say, but don't be so ignorant. I don't claim to know everything. But I've experienced a lot with myself and my family.

A person isn't going to fix their high blood pressure, their cardiovascular plaque and breathing issues on, beta blockers and cholesterol medications.

First off, you don't treat high blood pressure, you're body does this to maintain constant nutrient and oxygen delivery throughout the body. So by giving someone beta blockers, your treating a symptom. Another thing I've heard is high blood pressure can cause a heart attack. Someone wanna please explain how?

Also you don't treat cholesterol. You need cholesterol because it delivers nutrients. A myth is cholesterol causes artery plaque. Well.. part of it. If you eat a lot of bad foods, your going to end up with a lot of toxins and harmful particles. This does damage to your artery walls. Naturally your body would repair damage.

Problem is, your body needs nutrients to create collagen fibers. Such as Vitamin C, Lysine, etc. Many of us I hope realize the majority of americans don't get enough vitamin C, as humans are one of the few species that can't create their own vitamin C within their body. We are also one of the few species that suffer from cardiovascular disease. So without a sufficient vitamin C, your suffering from chronic scurvy.

So, if your body can't make repairs, there's a plan B. Your liver creates plaque particles. Which enter your blood and bind with the damaged artery walls. Much like a scab. If your body can't make repairs, your arteries become thicker with plaque over time.

Make sense?

So what nutrients do you need to reverse this? Several grams of vitamin C, L-Lysine. And a good dose of Coenzyme Q10. L-Lysine is an amino acid. And Coenzyme Q10 is an enzyme that assists in oxygen and energy utilization.

So why listen to what I just said instead of the doctor?

BECAUSE NO ONE TAKING THESE MEDS FOR THIS ILLNESS GET BETTER!

At best it just prolongs their illness, slowing it down.

Another good point to make is when people go to their doctor for the flu, or when they take their child.

Usually they are prescribed to take something to reduce their fever and ease their stomach. And I hear this all the time.

1.You have a fever because high temperatures prevent viruses from multiplying and give time for your immune system to clean house.

2. You vomit and instinctively refuse food because your body is demanding that you go on a fast for the duration of the illness. By shutting down your digestive system, you are speeding up your recovery time by redirecting your energy from digestion to cleansing and other needs. The best thing you can do in this state is to drink freshly made fruit and vege juice and avoid anything highly acidic. Doing so enables you to get nutrients and calories in a form that is readily absorb-able by your body without digestion.

Really people. Should you trust your average doctor more than your politicians?

If you really need to see a doctor, go to a homeopath or naturopath. They know what they're doing.

EDIT.

Btw, before you guys assume I also agree about special cases such as schizophrenia that can actually be dangerous and requires a constant inhibitor to keep a 'consensus reality' then that's different. I have family with this illness. But they too have mixed feelings about the medications they are taking.

Since I'm done with the rant I'll take a second to say there is no black and white. Medications can by takin in special moments of need, but should not be relied on as your life line, unless there is no other functional option.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Scarcer]

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Scarcer]

MY dad beated my mom my brother and me for 4 years, I had to run to ours neighbourhoods to tell them daddy was breaking all in the house and wanted to kill us, I will not go further in what he did as it become too personal then my mom decided it was too much so she kicked him out of the houses so he had to get better, well he had to..... 15years in mental hospital feed with anti depressor while it is what made him like this, he was smoking so much and finally he died because of Pulmonary embolism.

And you want to tell me anti depressor aren't that bad? no that's true, they have just destroy my childhood the one of my brother, the live and happiness of my mother and they just finally killed my dad slowly but surely.

So what about depression? You said in the OP we don't even now what it is, yeah sure I don't know what it is to feel as bad as you want to cut those veins or jump from a bridge............ but I sure will never take those medication that will destroy me even more they already did, nobody need those craps, it's only a mirage, just know what is wrong in you and change it, drugs will not change you they will cover your pain.

You took your medication and then you felt better, I say good for you but you are nobody to say we have to take them, my experience and the one from a lot of people told me medication isn't a solution, it's just avoiding the problem and never fix it, soon or later it will blow again because your medication is gone.

Please people don't take those crap, get better by yourself, only you can save yourself, remember that!!!!!

While I feel that medication is a viable form of well... medicating, natural remedies have their benefits as well, and to say that people who think/want to take natural remedies over the medication that a doctor prescribes are nuts, well that makes you even more ignorant than they are. I feel you should always try natural first, then if that doesn't work see a physician. Why? Because there are natural remedies that do the same things to your hormone levels that produce close to no side effects.

And I'm not just some "Old hippie freak" I'm a college student working on my psych degree who does not condone the use of drugs for recreational purposes... so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Thank you Oz for pointing out the responsiblities we do have as posters here. I have been concerned on many occasions when it comes to posters giving advice about health issues or medications. I did a thread here once about taking lipitor, and how it has affected my health adversly, but afterwards I had to consider that what if a member stopped taking theirs because of me, or the opinions of those who responded, and had a heart attack because of it. I wanted to delete the thread, I stopped adding anything to it and hope it is buried now. What went on with me may not be typical of what would happen to others. And the vaccine, lord what if anyone, or their child, died because they didn't take the vacine after reading on here? I am not a professional, and should not be telling people my result and saying it is dangerous, or any other drug for that matter. Kudos Oz.