"Truly free people do not need to be told they are free" - J. Fresco on RT

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I am short on time here, but just a brief note to inform you that you are way, way off base here. You have gotten carried away with your own musings. Choose to believe you are imprisoned. Help yourself. It's a prison of your own making.

I didn't pass any of the stupid laws I mentioned.

I didn't single-handledly imprison more people than any other country on Earth either.

If you want to ignore stuff like this and live in your own little world pretending we are truly free here, I don't care, most people are apathetic anyway. Most people were apathetic even during the revolution. That's just how it goes.

I can go over every law we have, and drive myself crazy with my "lack of freedom", but I choose not to.

And everyone who died to keep this country as free as possible thanks you for it, I'm sure.

But don't condescend to me.....please, I don't consider your ramblings anything neccessarily to take notes on....lol. Be mindful of that...I frankly don't see that you have much to teach me. Not to be ugly, I really don't mean that, but you seem to be under the impression that you have these vast pearls of wisdom of which I should be aware. Sorry, that is simply not the case. You can site J-walking laws all you like. I know about them.

J-walking law in the singular. And gambling, "squatting," keeping outdoor fires at certain times, increasing gun laws, all the other stuff I mentioned. This is turning into a Nanny state. I don't care if you listen to what I say or not. But if you're going to post here pretending you're "free" then I am simply putting that into perspective, because there are obvious limitations on that "freedom" and they extend to mere pettiness. I also don't care if you plug your ears and tell me you're not interested in this perspective. Suit yourself. I don't lie to myself, and fortunately I still at least have the freedom of speech to express these sentiments, for the time being at least.

This is all about free exchange of ideas and discussion. You say we are free; I ask, how "free" is "freedom" here? Judging by our laws, not particularly. You obviously don't want to hear that, and that's no skin off of my back.

It is your choice to believe the way you do. I personally don't see the bars, I walk right through them if I choose.

That is no excuse for all the people who do see bars in this country, for no good reason. And I'm not sure if you would want to debate the legitimacy or "freedom" of the laws that land so many people into jails and prisons in this country either. More than any other country in the world, remember. Even more than China, which has about 4x our total population. If you essentially want to live as if you're already in a jail, never stepping outside of the boxes your politicians create for you, then of course they aren't going to bother you. But millions of people don't appreciate these boxes and are affected by them, and I ask, what right do they have to deny someone the right to gamble if they want to? You really support throwing people in jail for that, and you still say this is a free country?

Millions of people lived just fine under Nazi leadership in Germany, too, and millions of people also enjoyed it and thought it was completely fair, I'm sure. Same idea here. Everything is fine for you so everything is fine for everyone. Sure. Everyone just has to live exactly like you, within all the same boxes, no problem. It's just that that's not really "freedom." It's living free* under a large number of petty conditions. Though I really don't care in the end because you do no real harm by being apathetic anyway. Only 1/3 of the population gave a damn enough to fight for freedom during the first revolution. But they still won anyway. So don't worry about it, that's fine.

And I don't care if you "choose" to see no "bars," either. But if you want to claim this is a "free country" then I do have every right to disagree and give you all these reasons why. It's your choice to read my posts, it's your choice to respond to them. It's your choice to continue to believe whatever you feel like believing, regardless of the actual laws, regardless of the largest prison population in the world, regardless of anything.

I certainly don't let them keep me down, or spend my time trying to get others to see the negativities of what might be, as you seem to be doing.

I only point out negatives to remind people who forget them. I don't actually fret about this stuff or let it get my down. But I don't ignore it, either.

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
Go to work, send your kids to school, follow fashion, act normal, walk on the pavement, watch T.V., save for you old age, obey the law.

Repeat after me: I am Free.

That's the mantra, isn't it?

1984 is almost here. We're about 25 years behind schedule but hell, you can blame all the wild gun-toting, backwards rednecks for that huh.

reply to post by bsbray11


Ok, we can still discuss these things, I think mostly without fear of persecution.

I have look at that in a positive light. We're still able to do this now.

Perhaps it's simply a logistical matter or they'd have us all by now?

No, no, when they really, really mean business, you'll know it. I think I have a good idea what will transpire based on another Carribean experiment of theirs and it isn't FEMA camps.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
When the gun barrels point inward instead of outward on the ship there is a problem with design.

If the US was a ship, it'd have cannons pointing inward, outward, up towards the gods, and surrounding the captain's chambers in all directions imaginable.

So many cannons in fact you know the whole ship is sinking. Everybody knows it.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

freedom

- the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints

Yes, I am aware of what you are saying. But I am free to break those laws if I so choose, and have the freedom to accept the consequences if I so choose.

You do not have an accurate understanding of what freedom is.

Again, I question the motives of anyone who tries to tell me I am not free.

If somebody whom is just like you is questioning their freedoms that are just like yours, wouldn't it be wise to listen? What if they are correct in their assumptions? You have nothing to gain by denying it altogether.

In the meantime, I prefer to take advantage of my freedom, and not bemoan our current laws....which by the way, we mostly vote on.

Having no say in even one decision is not freedom. The reality is that we hardly have a say in any of them?

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Perhaps it's simply a logistical matter or they'd have us all by now?

Yeah, I think so actually. When I was raised, my dad was a big Civil War buff. I know for a fact that I wasn't the only one in this country raised believing that, if the federal government ever crosses these certain lines, it's war again. Regardless of what authorities ever say. The power and responsibility is ours. And if they aren't already dancing on that line then they are constantly getting closer and closer to it. Trying to throw guns out the window would be the last straw and they know that. Drive through Texas or Tennessee and you'll see billboards for miles and miles along the interstates about gun rights, protect the 2nd amendment, buy firearms here, shooting range there. I am really grateful for that 2nd amendment, I tell you.

No, no, when they really, really mean business, you'll know it. I think I have a good idea what will transpire based on another Carribean experiment of theirs and it isn't FEMA camps.

That sounds interesting. What's that?

[edit on 17-2-2010 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
No, no, when they really, really mean business, you'll know it. I think I have a good idea what will transpire based on another Carribean experiment of theirs and it isn't FEMA camps.

That sounds interesting. What's that?

The Second Amendment won't need to be transgressed or overridden. They won't confront you head on. They don't need big armies. They can be pretty surgical. I think something along this line is more plausible than there being large, high-profile spectacles of raw state power.

It was in our commonwealth of Puerto Rico (many, many people are armed there). It involved taking out the central network hubs of the radical independentistas (particularly the Boricua Popular Army or Macheteros), right on the street. Simple hits by Fedral agents. They would check people out and take them in for evaluation. If they thought you really were a threat you'd be confined. If they couldn't get you there they'd take you out per above. If you were related to anyone in that group they'd put you into little reeducation programs and released.

However, please note, just being a member of that group and being taken-in would not necessarily guarantee harm would come. They wanted the big fishes with the voices that wielded the most influence and those that were imminently dangerous.

It seemed to work. The Independence party is pretty much wiped out altogether there within a generation.

So, that's that, in short, as I've come to understand it so far.


[edit on 2/17/2010 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by EnlightenUp


I can see that happening in a smaller region like Puerto Rico, but for the entire US the logistics would have to change things at least a little just because of how ingrained so many anti-authoritarian sentiments are across so many rural areas. It's so common it would come to having to potentially hold a lot of people (unconstitutionally, which would just stir up deep-seated cultural sentiments even more). I think before any outright war would break out, people would just passively break any anti-gun laws (as they already are in the tens of thousands, if not millions) until the authorities took it upon themselves to act anyway. In other words they would have to come to private residents first imo, since no standing army/militia of any size would be able to develop undetected, and fighting with a standing army would be impossible.


Along those lines, I remember reading about the revolutionary war in Virginia. And you know what was most interesting to me, was that Virginia was already effectively free from the King of England before any other colony was, and without firing a single shot. Each town simply armed itself to the teeth and then blatantly ignored the mandates of the governor who was acting on behalf of the king. We also had a House of Burgesses that the governor had allowed to exist, and the House simply said they would ignore the governor from then on. And there was nothing he could do about it. We were free of the king just like that, and peacefully at that. The governor sat in his palace at Williamsburg without the power to enforce a damned thing. Until the king sent an army here. And then it was guerrilla warfare at first, people firing and running, which the British were unable to handle because they were only trained to fire in lines on battlefields. And believe it or not even this sporadic guerrilla fire was enough to turn back the British army to North Carolina before they even reached the Virginia border, but of course they regrouped, and American militias were brought together and then a Napoleonic war ensued. If thinking were a little different back then, though, we would have no need to even form armies, and could have fought them off with guerrilla tactics much more easily. Can you imagine a Southern Viet Cong?


Just curious, but where do you live?

[edit on 17-2-2010 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11


My goodness, I sure am getting a lot of free advice tonight on my lack of understanding what freedom is. lol.

On the contrary, I don't think you understand what the lack of freedom is.

Have your analogies here truely degenerated to comparisons of Nazi Germany? It appears so. I think you even said they thought they were free. Sigh. Right.

You are climbing a tree to convince yourself that you are in a prison, when you could stay on the ground and see what's actually around you.

Don't you think it is a little presumptious of you to continue this "preaching" to me, which is what you are doing? As though you somehow have the answers, and you are putting forth the effort to open my eyes? And as for your personal "assessment" of my life that I live in a box? (Aren't you bored with that tired little phrase? I know I am).

How silly. It's just silly. Boxes are prisons, and I've told you; I don't live in a prison.

Do you understand, on any level, that I do understand what you are saying? In no way are you talking over my head. In no way do I find you difficult to comprehend. In no way do I require further clarification of the points you are making.

I simply reject them, based on exaggeration, sensationalism, a negativistic attitude, and your personal bias.

Now, can you understand what I am saying to you?

[edit on 2/17/2010 by ladyinwaiting]

The main sides that are being debated here are:

1. Yeah, on paper we might be slaves, but look at me... I can go outside when I want, eat when/what I want, live where I want, etc.

2. But the response is that these freedoms have lines drawn, relatively close lines. I can live in any city I want, unless I can't get a job for money to pay to live there... I can eat what I want, unless the only things I can afford are terrible for my health because of the corporate pigs that poison us etc....

I have to agree with #2, because it is only as free as the corporations want it to be, really.

I have the freedom to drive an electric car that doesn't rely on fossil fuels... but I have to make it myself, and I am free to patent it... but I will be blackmailed or bought out by big corps..

I wish I wasn't cynical, but the reality is that it is a cynical reality.

The clincher: MONEY.

It is a grand illusion and a crap in a box to further generations to naievely believe that the slavery on paper will not transfer to slavery by contract... which is what the paper is. If the trend continued as it has been, then all that is required for total slavery to become the norm is for us - the current generation - to sit back and say 'AH, its only a piece of paper, I am still free because it feels like it!'

Then it is only a matter of waiting for the slacker generation, that feels like it is free, to die.

It is fine if you think you are free, but it is at the cost of those that know you aren't. If there wasn't anybody to counter the idea that we are as free as it gets, the situation would be much farther gone.

If that makes any cents, its my 2.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by bsbray11

 

You are climbing a tree to convince yourself that you are in a prison, when you could stay on the ground and see what's actually around you.

Again, I will quote you to emphasize the counter point to your argument.

If you would only climb the metaphorical tree yourself, you would be able to see the metaphorical walls that are not apparent from the ground.

It may be that we are the last remnants of free, and so there is still a sense of freedom. But when the institution starts enforcing the contracts that are already in place, it will be a total different story.

That is only a matter of time. And probably during our childrens lifetime. It is a slippery slope that I am not willing to let my potential children deal with. In fact, this is a main factor in me deciding whether or not to ever have children.

reply to post by beebs


I absolutely agree we teeter on the verge of a slippery slope.
But we haven't gone over, and the point is.....not to.

I don't think we will.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
My goodness, I sure am getting a lot of free advice tonight on my lack of understanding what freedom is. lol.

This isn't a one-sided conversation you know. You can correct me at any time, instead of giving me this snippy sarcasm.

Have your analogies here truely degenerated to comparisons of Nazi Germany? It appears so. I think you even said they thought they were free. Sigh. Right.

Have you seen videos of their old rallies lately? They seemed pretty damned happy with how things were going to me. No "bars" at least, right? So therefore they were free by your reasoning. All a mentality. Right?

You are climbing a tree to convince yourself that you are in a prison, when you could stay on the ground and see what's actually around you.

Again, I didn't give this country the highest prison population in the world. I didn't write all the laws that resulted in criminalizing all these people. I am only observing the fact. And expressing it to you. Our "freedom" has very severe limitations that are demonstrated by these facts.

Don't you think it is a little presumptious of you to continue this "preaching" to me, which is what you are doing?

No, I'm annoyed that you can't even come back with an argument of your own! Come on, you can't just bitch about me "preaching" and chalk that up to your position being justified. You say we're free. I give you reasons why we are not truly free, in the sense our forefathers used the term, we simply aren't in jail for misbehaving in the eyes of our Nanny State. You know, you could counter this with arguments of your own, instead of whining, if you really want. Or you could also stop reading and responding to my posts. You are free to do that.

How silly. It's just silly. Boxes are prisons, and I've told you; I don't live in a prison.

Maybe that's because you live a boring life. No offense, but seriously. If I want to go out and gamble there should be nothing to stop me. Or even from hiring a prostitute, hell, and building a shack in the mountains to live with my prostitute for months and get drunk every night and stagger around in the woods. Just because I don't want to actually do that, and just because you don't want to do that, doesn't mean you are free. It's not harming a damned soul, and I can't do it. That is not freedom. Do you not understand that? Can you see I'm trying to make a point here? I'm not just trying to "preach" at you. Maybe you can say I'm trying to "teach" you something but I'm not even looking at it that way, I am talking to you person to person. If you have a reason to discount my reasoning here then I'm all ears. This is two-way. But all I'm reading is whining. Oh that's silly, and oh you're wrong, and oh I'm tired of that phrase. Oh cry me a river.

Do you understand, on any level, that I do understand what you are saying? In no way are you talking over my head. In no way do I find you difficult to comprehend. In no way do I require further clarification of the points you are making.

That's great.

Look, we can agree to disagree. You already said you choose to believe we are free. That's fine. Then that's you living in make-believe world, not me, as you were accusing earlier. And if that upsets your make-believe world then you know you can give me reasons to justify your position that we are truly free. I'm just not seeing the reasons. And I have every right to express this to you. Free speech girl! (Sorry if you're a guy. "MrGreen" is a woman after all so... who knows.)

I simply reject them, based on exaggeration, sensationalism, a negativistic attitude, and your personal bias.

I chalk this one up to psychological projection. You subconsciously project your own characteristics onto your external environment. I am citing laws and other facts to justify the statement we are not truly free. Someone even posted the definition of "freedom" above; you can't get much clearer than that. No exaggeration in that definition; no sensationalism in the fact that this country is the biggest prison state in the world; no negativity in realizing the laws in this country go beyond protecting personal freedom. I already told you this stuff doesn't bring me down. It isn't the end of the world. It's just something to keep in mind. History has warned us time and again to be vigilant with our leaders. They have nasty habits of abusing us. We can't deny that or it will only make things worse.

Now, can you understand what I am saying to you?

I understand but then you know we aren't really free, by the definition of freedom given above. Our laws simply don't allow that. If you live within the confines of the law, that doesn't mean you're free. It just means you're following all the laws. Do you get what I'm saying here?

reply to post by bsbray11


Sorry, I didn't read your post. No offense intended. What I do get from remembering you on another thread, is that you simply must have the last word. Even if it means.....

Preaching
Preaching
Preaching
Baiting

Redundancy. Someone has pushed you off the slippery slope.
I am still here.

I perfer not to continue this conversation with you. I've grown tired of your pointless preaching, and you have no effect on me, or I, you.
It's pointless.

I think you are trying to make people (me) feel foolish, because I believe in my freedom. On another thread you tried to make me and others feel foolish because of our belief in God. Apparently this is just your M.O.

If that is your point, then you have failed.
Now, Have your last word.



[edit on 2/17/2010 by ladyinwaiting]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by bsbray11

 

Sorry, I didn't read your post. No offense intended. What I do get from remembering you on another thread, is that you simply must have the last word. Even if it means.....

Preaching
Preaching
Preaching
Baiting

Redundancy. Someone has pushed you off the slippery slope.
I am still here.

I perfer not to continue this conversation with you. I've grown tired of your pointless preaching, and you have no effect on me, or I, you.
It's pointless.

I think you are trying to make people (me) feel foolish, because I believe in my freedom. On another thread you tried to make me and others feel foolish because of our belief in God. Apparently this is just your M.O.

If that is your point, then you have failed.
Now, Have your last word.



[edit on 2/17/2010 by ladyinwaiting]

This is a debate forum meant to inspire discussion. A debate may contain any number of alternative views and information worthy of discussion? Personal beliefs and opinions of topics are irrelevant allowing everyone to argue any and all sides of any and all topics.

In other words, you do not have to agree with your argument to make it. You do, however, need to provide something relevant to contravene someones point. Judging and insulting your opponents personal character provides nothing to contradict their point, or make one of your own? Equally, changing the subject lends nothing of use at all to a debate?

Nobody is trying to preach, bait or offend you by asking you to rationalize your viewpoint. You made an effort to voice your disagreement, yet refuse to explain the reasoning? What good is that? If this activity causes offense or displeasure to you personally, maybe you should rethink your involvement?

Originally posted by Zerbst
You made an effort to voice your disagreement, yet refuse to explain the reasoning? What good is that? If this activity causes offense or displeasure to you personally, maybe you should rethink your involvement?

Right, if someone doesn't want to defend their position in a discussion then they shouldn't respond in the first place. If crying and whining supercede reasoning, computers would be made of tears. Not seeing it. Methinks someone has learned to get by a little too much in life simply by whining.

reply to post by dalan.


I tend to think that the series started with the esoteric agenda, then Zeitgeist, then Zeitgeist Addendum, then the Venus project orientation, then kymatica....

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by ladyinwaiting

 

If you want to see how "free" you are, I can list a thousand things for you to try, that will all get you arrested.

It's classic doublethink.


If there is such a thing as true freedom, it would surely be illegal.

These three excerpts of your post outline the damages of the world in a nutshell. People just don't realize just how 'free' we really are not.

I'm almost thinking of quoting your last line as my sig, it struck me so hard!

Peace

Americans are not so much free as we are given choices... choices of Janus like parties who are merely different faces of the same ruling elite (which makes the claims from the right of socialism or communism on the left idiotic)...and if we get anything from health care reform to gay rights its because that ruling elite has decided in favor of it...not because we the people chose.

We are given the choices...pay rent...be homeless...own a home.

We are given the choices...be a bum...work your ass off for less and less or live on the dole and allow government to dictate your life.

We are given the choices...of which media corporations entertain you and/or supply your news.

We are given the choices...of what to buy from multi-national corporations while they push the real choice of small businesses into extinction.

We are given the choices...of what to eat from fast food chains and GM foods and mass produced foods unless you are well off enough to buy the good stuff or grow your own.

We are given so many choices and think ain't freedom grand...

oblivious of the fact that in the process of chosing we are responding to the dictates of those offering them...

the ruling elite.

Our real freedom is of movement and speech...but even those are dictated since your opinions are informed by those who control the media which includes the internet and publications....and as for movement...that is dictated as well by the cost unless you walk everywhere.

The hackneyed "Freedom isn't free" is a pathetic joke. You are born free and you are free to die...everything in between is bought and paid for.

[edit on 2/18/2010 by iMacFanatic]

reply to post by iMacFanatic


Well said.

The moment your mother and father gave a "birth certificate" to the goverment you..we.. became property of the crown...oops your not supposed to know that.

Face it you have been told what to do all of your life and it will continue until you die.
Unless