9/11 Occam's Razor

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999


If I was replying to one of your posts, Swampy, I would have been more rigorous in my commentary. Thank you for correcting my mistake, South Tower. _javascript:icon('')

I wasn't aware of the cross-examination interview, thank you again for the link, I'll check it out. I'm sorry that you are taxed to the point of fatigue trying to keep up with the latest and greatest research on this topic, but I appreciate your efforts. Some of the references I used are now a few years old, but hey, if I didn't whip them out I would never know that there are updates.

Side note, the Pentagon has plans on file to invade just about every country on the Earth. Its called being prepared.

I don't see you providing a link or source to prove that claim about the Pentagon, or is that same sort of "oh, everybody knows that" factoid that I used? Even if true, so what? My point was that Afgh obviously had some strategic or economic value that held Bushco's interest for plans to be drawn up and ready to go. The heroin/morphine exports, of special interest to a family known for running illegal drugs, and its strategic location--covering the length of Iran's eastern border, and of course the oil pipeline deals--although whether the goal is to complete them or prevent them I don't know--any one of these things are things of interest to the US and to members of the Bush administration. The person I was replying to said:

Conspiracies are supposed to be goal oriented activities workign for some defined objective, not simply a bunch of randomly occuring stunts simply for the sake of pulling off randomly occuring stunts.....Did the conspirators use this as a false flag to blame Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, or some other resource rich country that's been a thorn in our side? NO! We framed Afhgnaistan, the camel dung capital of the world.

My post to him addressed his apparent scoffing at the ideas that 9-11 could be dismissed as a conspiracy because it wasn't a goal oriented activity, and that Afgh must be worthy of invasion because... it's "the camel dung capital of the world" so why else would we go there?? I don't know exactly what he's saying there, lol. But if he's saying that we have no interest in Afgh, other than to avenge 9-11 or get bin Laden, I am proving him wrong, if that's ok with you? Why can't you understand that context from the texts of the messages you quoted? And besides the updated info about the alleged shutdown on the South, not the North, Tower--hope I got it right for you that time ,which I have thanked you for, how does nitpicking my post, made to someone acting as little more than a troll on this thread, advance your agenda, reinforce your point, win you an argument...or am I "on your list" now?

reply to post by Whyhi

You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

_javascript:icon('')
My feelings exactly upon reading your post. Your sense of ironic hypocrisy is well-greased! But I'm sorry, I'm not going to answer any of your questions because whether you are Dereks or just his wingman, I'm not wasting the time it takes to deal with one of you, let alone two of you. It's boring and meaningless--much like the lives of all of us thruthers'--empty and miserable--ha ha, beat you to it!

Thanks for the name-calling at the beginning, it let me know right where you're coming from

reply to post by Skyline666

So do you really believe it would take really that many people to organize and execute a False Flag like 9/11?

Yes. The US Government long ago forgot how to plan ANYTHING simply.

Remember the Australian Defense Force warned Pearl Harbour about the Japanese Planes on approach hours before the bombing, did they not?

Nope. There is no way that the Australian Defense Force could have warned about planes on approach to Pearl Harbor that day.

P.S - What is your opinion on Operation Northwoods and the connection to JFK"S assassination? Do you think if he agreed to executing Northwoods and leaving the CIA alone (no restructuring etc..), he would have survived Dallas?

See, I used to believe things like the CIA might have had something to do with JFK's death, for awhile I even thought maybe there were three gunmen. Then, instead of reading books written to make money...I did some research. When I saw a shooter replicate the "magic bullet"shot almost exactly....that ended a lot of the belief that it wasnt Oswald by himself. Was Oswald working for the CIA...I highly doubt it.

Operation Northwoods..a goofy plan borne out of the Executive Branch's obsession with getting rid of Castro.

I know it would be quite a few who know and are keeping their mouths shut, but there has already been slips been made and good witness testimony.

Not really. A few charlatans and some misquotes for the most part.

reply to post by without_prejudice

I wasn't aware of the cross-examination interview, thank you again for the link, I'll check it out. I'm sorry that you are taxed to the point of fatigue trying to keep up with the latest and greatest research on this topic, but I appreciate your efforts. Some of the references I used are now a few years old, but hey, if I didn't whip them out I would never know that there are updates.

Your comment about the latest and greatest research provoked a much needed laugh, thank you. There isn't anything groundbreaking when it comes to 9/11 "truth" research. Just new people falling for long discredited stories. Although, I am quite sure that Kevin Ryan or David Ray Griffin will announce to the world any day now that they found traces of C-4 on a piece of WTC steel that they got from Kevin's cousin's boyfriend's sister's husband's uncle's dad who helped with the clean-up.


And no doubt certain posters will jump all over it as "proof" of their delusions.

I don't see you providing a link or source to prove that claim about the Pentagon, or is that same sort of "oh, everybody knows that" factoid that I used

If I had a link or source that I thought you would accept, I would post it......wait, read some of Tom Clancy's books. (BTW, there are also plans for dealing with the arrival of hostile extra terrestrials)



[edit on 15-2-2010 by Swampfox46_1999]

I wonder what Occam himself would think about all this.Would he be a Truther,a truster or an ignoramus sheeple?My guess is he'd believe his eyes and not the TV.I'm sure Holmes would say,"Elementary,my dear Watson?HELL NO!!"

Originally posted by without_prejudice

I'm sure you know better than this. The North Tower was shut down the weekend before 9-11 in an unprecedented power down. Businesses running 24-7 computer servers had a matter of no more than a few days to mirror their sites. The alarm systems and all security systems went down. The bomb-sniffing dogs were removed. And the main evidence for thermite used in taking down the twin towers were massive pools of molten iron under the complex that stayed hot and liquid for 6 weeks after the attacks.

(Sigh) those damned fool conspiracy web sites have suckered this guy and suckered him badly. I know exactly where you're getting that drivel from- it's from Scott Forbes, an IT worker whose statements have been requoted from requotes to the point where it's been embellished into a completely different statetemt.

1) If youre going to quote Forbes then quote him correctly. It wasn't tower 1. It was tower 2, and it wasn't just a few days advanced notice. Forbes himself said everyone was notified three or four weeks beforehand..

2) The power down only affected one half of ONE building, from floor 50 and above. All floors below, and at least one floor above (the observation deck), had full power.

3) By Forbes' own statement, it was only for 26 hours (12:00 noon Sat to 2:00 pm Sun). This wouldn't be enough time to rig even ONE floor with demolitions.

4) By Forbes'own statement, all maintenance work was handled exclusively by the New York Port Authority. If they brought in outside vendors they would have been watched over by their own technicians to make sure everything was done to code. Just like every OTHER skyscraper in the US does it.

5) by Forbes' own statement, many of the components of the WTC ( AC, heating system, electrical wiring) were outdated and inefficient.

6) You also need to quote your "bomb dogs were removed" claim correctly. The dogs that were removed were the additional dogs the NYPA had assigned to them after a false bomb threat. The NYPA always had their own bomb dogs and these were never removed, and one of them (named,"Sirius") was killed in the collapse.

There is nothing in any of Scott Forbe's statements that indicates this was anything but a legitimate power upgrade, and everything he does say supports the fact that this is a deliberate attempt at misrepresentation on the part of the conspiracy theorists to embellish their own conspiracy claims. Seeing what the information is that these damned fool conspiracy web sites are leaving out, it's obvious they're doing it on purpose.

And certainly the members of the administration and their families (esp. in the case of the Bush family) benefitted tremendously from the wars. Did you forget Cheney's intimate connection to Halliburton, recipient of massive no-bid contracts from the DOD for the entire war, including and up to today? And what about the Saudi's and bin Laden's ties to Bushco?

Good grief, not this again. Dude, these ties are five degrees of separation, "Kevin Bacon" game, where you can connect anyone to anyone else on the planet via a chain of the right five people. This "connection between the Saudis and Bin Laden" was an investment fund that "linked" Bush to Bin laden through a chain of investment bankers, accountants, and fund managers (as well as loan brokers, depending on which "ties to Bin Laden" you're referring to). It wasn't even Osama Bin Laden himself, but his family, who have disowned him becuase even they don't want to have anything to do with his stunts. If you invest in any 401(k) foreign funds, odds are, YOU have "ties to Bin Laden", too.

When I keep saying these damned fool conspiracy web sites are feeding you horse [censored] to get people all paranoid over shadows, I'm not saying it simply becuase I saw it in a dream. I'm saying it becuase they really ARE feeding you horse [censored] to get people all paranoid over shadows. Doesn't it strike you a little odd at least that I know more about your own conspiracy claims than you do?

Occam would also compare length of diatribe.
Truth don't need too much massage.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
Precisely why it was not one of the conspiracy theories advocated on here as opposed to what truthers call the "official story"

(Sigh) yep. If this guy is even remotely trying to say this conspiracy story of his satisfies Occam's Razor then he is unrepentently lying through his teeth. These 9/11 conspiracy stories are by far the most godawful convoluted Rube Goldberg mechinations I've ever heard, bar none.

Apparently, some secret force decided to blow up two gigantic buildings by sneaking in past 50,000 tenants, inspectors, security guards, custodians, etc, and planting concealed super duper demolition devices secretly in plain sight that exist nowhere else except in secret laboratories, PLUS, for good measure, they crashed two hijacked and/or remote controlled passenger aircraft into THE EXACT SAME LOCATION where the super duper explosives were hidden as a cover story, all without anyone noticing even a scrap of paper out of place or leaving a microbe of evidence behind.

Thermate has been discovered in the dust, and that fact has been verified by a rigorous peer review of the research. Thermate is used regularly in the military (manufactured by military hardware suppliers who have been fingered in the 9/11 conspiracy), and RF triggering IED technology (like roadside bombs in Iraq) allows for the detonations to be quickly reconfigured on a laptop to initiate at the impact zone. This is why you people need to update your rhetoric. You're still thinking like pre-2005 OS apologists, and it's pretty pathetic.

Of course, this requires about 100,000 saboteurs, planted moles, disinformation agents, paid false witnesses, and other flunkies whole heartedly willing to betray their country and murder 3,000 people in the most massive coverup in all of recorded human history...all as a false flag operation to invade some completely worthless country that even makes Somalia look like Switzerland. Don't even get me started on the "staged a fake crash site out in the middle of nowhere for no appreciable reason whatsoever" claims, and the "1,000 witnesses around the Pentagon spontaneously came down with mass psychosis when they saw a plane instead of a cruise missile hit the building" excuses. *THIS* is supposed to be the most simple explanation for the 9/11 attack?!?

Gosh, it's like you copied this off an Internet forum board from six years ago. You'll never get bumped to field management with this kind of anemic performance. Everyone knows that 9/11 was launched to create the new Global Generational War on Terror, and to replace the old Cold War that ended when the USSR inconveniently collapsed. Trillions of wasted dollars later, things have improved for the munitions manufacturers and othr war-related money providers. Duh.

The most simple explanation is that yes, it really was a terrorist attack. We know muslim terrorists are capable of hijacking aircraft, we know muslim terrorists can and will perform suicide attacks, and we know they're so outer space fanatic that they'll even start rioting over cartoons in Danish newspapers. It's as if they have some emotional need to believe the gov't is constantly plotting to murder us all...presuming it is the gov't, rather than the Jewish world order, secret satan worshipping cults, or whatever the [censored] it is they believe is out to get us.

Superhero terrorists can't force the laws of physics to bend to their iron will. International weapons manufacturers and black ops companies like Blackwater can pull off a 9/11 hit with their eyes closed. The blood of 3,000 Americans is on your hands for defending these murderers. Think about that when you cash the check.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by NorEaster]

[edit on 15-2-2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Hey Dave,

Think you know your 9/11 stuff then? C'mon hero. Let's party. I got one for you. How is it that these pros all have taken your version of the attacks and decided that it's crap?

www.patriotsquestion911.com...

These folks aren't trolls on a messageboard. These people are well established experts in the fields that explain collapses like the one that miraculously occurred in NYC on 9/11.

So, was it a progressive collapse, or was in a pancake collapse? C'mon Dave. Teach me what you know.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by NorEaster]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

You need actual, tangible evidence that would contradict the "official story" (which doesn't exist) in order to validate a new investigation. And in that case it belongs in a court of law, not "independent investigators". Furthermore, should such a new investigation not confirm your preconceived notions you would be unlikely to accept the findings anyway. If you are unable to identify the correct enemy nine years out and cannot verify your perceived enemy with tangible evidence nine years out then you have problems that far exceed the extent of your alleged conspiracies.

There won't be a new official investigation, and there won't be prosecutions. There will be executions, however. Some have already taken place, and others are to follow. The Anthrax hostage situation is still ongoing, so as of yet, the principles are still free to roam, but there is indication that this is being closed in upon as well, so there may be news coming out of that before too long.

You won't believe the mess that'll erupt once the Anthrax threat is shut down. You think the Progressives have gone too far now? Ha!!! You have no idea what's going to change once the Bush/Cheney infestation is finally gutted.

reply to post by NorEaster
Hi Nor,
"Hey Dave,

Think you know your 9/11 stuff then? C'mon hero. Let's party. I got one for you. How is it that these pros all have taken your version of the attacks and decided that it's crap?"

Is there much point in asking..really, all you get is their psychcoanalysis of YOU and your belief systems, even if you haven't opened you gob about them. It is a technique used to make it appear you can't think or analyse for yourself. Always long winded responses, and name calling. I get that too, one poster calling me this or that. When I checked through his/her posts the first one that came up was of he/her whinging that someone else had called him/her names.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by smurfy]

reply to post by GoodOlDave

and planting concealed super duper demolition devices secretly in plain sight that exist nowhere else except in secret laboratories

HeHe another "super-duper super-sekrut magical dust that can't possibly really exist except in super-duper top sekrut laboratories" lame magical debunkerizer attemp. Well it's not so super-sekrut if it's on Wikipedia: NanoThermite is it (with chem papers and references)? Or is that the non-sekrut less than super-duper kind?

Originally posted by NorEaster
Thermate has been discovered in the dust, and that fact has been verified by a rigorous peer review of the research.

exactly who peer reviewed it? You do realise it was published in a vanity journal, you pay you get published....

Thermate is used regularly in the military (manufactured by military hardware suppliers who have been fingered in the 9/11 conspiracy)

So which military hardware supplier was "fingered", and by whom?

Superhero terrorists can't force the laws of physics to bend to their iron will.

Which laws of physics were bent?

Originally posted by NorEaster
Thermate has been discovered in the dust, and that fact has been verified by a rigorous peer review of the research. Thermate is used regularly in the military (manufactured by military hardware suppliers who have been fingered in the 9/11 conspiracy), and RF triggering IED technology (like roadside bombs in Iraq) allows for the detonations to be quickly reconfigured on a laptop to initiate at the impact zone. This is why you people need to update your rhetoric. You're still thinking like pre-2005 OS apologists, and it's pretty pathetic.

You people really need to stop going to these damned fool conspiracy web sites for your information. I read Jones' report so I know he never said he found thermite. He said he found THERMITIC MATERIAL, not thermite, which is intellectually dishonest on so many levels.

a) All he really found was oxidyzed iron I.E. rust stuck to bits of aluminum, and when he put a flame to it, it burned. Apparently it's a gigantic news flash to Jones that aluminum and iron oxide burns when put in a flame.

b) apparently, it's also a gigantic news flash to Jones that aluminum and iron oxide residue would be found in the dust from wreckage of a destroyed building chock full of aluminum and iron oxide. The side elements he describes he found along with the aluminum/iron oxide (sulfer, chromium) *are* building materials, so aluminum and iron oxide would have been found in the remains anyway, thermite or no thermite.

c) There is no such word as, "thermitic". The proper term he should have used was, "combustible". "Deflagrating" would have worked here too. Jones invented "thermitic" himself to get people into believing it was actually thermite he found, without actually coming out and saying it.

d) This "peer reviewed" claim is likewise disingenuous. Would you like to know what the peer review of this paper actaully was? The editor in chief of the journal it was published in resigned in disgust over Jone's paper, on the grounds that it was a terribly written report and she didn't want her name associated with it-

Editor in chief resigns over Jone's terrible report

Sooner or later, it WILL dawn on you that these damned fool conspiracy web sites are feeding you nonsense. I know you like to rely on the same tired, "I'm a sucker for government rhetoric while you're the serious researcher" excuse to soothe your ego for not getting anywhere with these conspiracy stories of yours, but how does this excuse explain that I know your own conspiracies better than you do?

reply to post by 1SawSomeThings
Hi Isaw,
You'd nearly think these guys were trained in the strawman arguement, here is an interesting link as regards how the strawman can be used, although in the main part of it re; Iraq and Al Queda the story is wrong, because Colin Powell did actually verbalise a connection. Maybe a strawman story within a strawman story,

www.scientificamerican.com...

Originally posted by NorEaster
Hey Dave,

Think you know your 9/11 stuff then? C'mon hero. Let's party. I got one for you. How is it that these pros all have taken your version of the attacks and decided that it's crap?

Easy- these people aren't basing it upon any professional expertise they have. They're being suckered by those exact same damned fool conspiracy web sites that are suckering you and they just don't know they're being suckered. I know this is exactly what's happening becuase of this gem from the "military professionals question 9/11" link-

"Capt. Daniel Davis is a former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and
NORAD Tac Director. After his military service, Capt. Davis served for 15
years as a Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine
Division and then devoted an additional 15 years as founder and CEO of
Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and
maintenance company.

In a statement to this author, Capt. Davis wrote, “As a former General
Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a
turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech,
high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on
9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any
crash or fire. Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed. Where are all of those
engines, particularly at the Pentagon? If jet powered aircraft crashed on
9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there.”"

Apparently, when he wrote this he doesn't know remains of the engines WERE found at the Pentagon, and have been identified as being the same Rolls Royce ngine that powered flight 77-

Aerospace journal's analysis of engine wreckage found at the Pentagon site

-So either Captain Davis is deliberately lying when he claims that no engine wreckage was found at the Pentagon, or, he's simply repeating some rubbish he heard that all the engine wreckage was completely destroyed at the Pentagon and he's making the mistake of accepting it at face value. He's not available to answer this, but since you are, I'll ask you- which of these two scenarios do you think is really the case?

Look, I'm not trying to insult you or to belittle you. I'm simply trying to show you just how badly these damned fool conspiracy web sites are mind raping you and other otherwise intelligent people and getting people all paranoid over shadows. Just becuase someone has specialized credentials it doesn't mean they're any more immune to con artists than the rest of us.

Originally posted by smurfy

Is there much point in asking..really, all you get is their psychcoanalysis of YOU and your belief systems, even if you haven't opened you gob about them. It is a technique used to make it appear you can't think or analyse for yourself. Always long winded responses, and name calling.

Rubbish. All one needs to do is read my posts to see I'm not here to launch personal attacks. In truth, most of the conspiracy theorists I've talked to are intelligent and articulate people. Rather, I reserve my hatred and thorough contempt for the con artists behind these damned fool conspiracy web sites (I.E. Alex Jones, Dylan Avery, etc) deliberately misrepresenting everythign they put out in order to get people all paranoid over nothing, and "damned fool conspiracy web site" is the only term that truly fits. Here's a sterling example:

-When WE read the news, we see that a corporate jet was in the vicinity of where United 93 disappeared and the pilot was requested by ground controllers to investigate the area and report if they could see any signs of a crash. We know who owned the plane, where it was coming from, and where it was going, and who asked them to investigate the crash area, so it's all above board.

-When Dylan Avery reads the news, he misrepresents it as "eyewitnesses reported that a mysterious white jet was seen over the crash site only moments after the supposed crash of flight 93", to imply that it was something noone knows about and there was something sinister behind it, all without coming out and saying it. Their disingenuous presentation of their information here is self evident, since there's no way this misrepresentation could have been done unintentionally. You yourselves are merely the victims in their con game.

If all you get out of this is, "I'm here to insult you" then it's likewise self evident that you haven't read a single post I've made here, in which case, you really have no credibility whatsoever.

And,since the topic is Occam,I wonder what he'd make of the pseudo-names on this board...Especially as compared with characteristics evidenced from within the text of posts...Then he'd ask if any good Pentacon films came out yet.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
That sounds fair enough Dave, but why presume that these "intelligent people" [your words] are so taken in by anything in the same breath, it's a contradiction. As for Alex Jones, yes he can be irritating in some ways, and sound over the top, but should he be ignored entirely? he didn't make up Bohemian Grove and its patronage, but he did introduce us to it. What sort of effing place is that to be frequented by world leaders? Now you did post a good link about the engines, but unfortunately, it is not from the 9/11 commission report, or the White House, or Boeing. Maybe it could belong to Alex Jones wearing another cap, who knows? The point is we all have to sift through the dross and the chaff that has been offered to us by both the "official" and the "unofficial" stories, and make up our own minds, without outside persuasion, or the verbals or the strawman stories, thanks anyway.

reply to post by smurfy


I know. I've been hunting down his ilk since 2004. It's funny that they all seem to have the exact same playbook. It's as though they get fresh-faced kids into the program every 6 months or so, and lie to them that "these talking point always work, so get out there and kick some ass!"

Then they get their little fannies spanked and go away to be replaced by more kids who have yet to learn what the last crop of recruits had to learn the hard way. It's like some sort of initiation or something, but then, what I've recently learned is that this duty is what is being peddled as "professional writing/marketing copy writer positions" on the Internet job sites nowdays, so maybe these mooks are just guys looking to round out the weekly income stream with some moonlighting work. It's a tough economy out there.

The OS managers do this to try and keep this a "debate", because as long as it's seen by enough people as still being a debate, they know that nothing will be done about it, and maybe it'll fade off and become like the Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy - a parlor game for lefties, and no threat to their bosses anymore. It may end up working out for them, but it'll take years of effort on their part to accomplish it.