9/11 POLL : Do You Believe a Boeing 757 Crashed in Shanksville?

reply to post by Point of No Return


No wait, the "American Free Press" is one of your "official story" sources?????? Really???

Now that's funny. You better do a little looking into that organization before you start refering to it as an "official source".

That's a anti-semetic conspiracy rag - build a burger, tri laterereeela commission, aluminazis, etc.

reply to post by impressme


impressme, regarding your rude response to Skadi (totally uncalled for) you owe an apology.

BECAUSE you repeatedly keep trotting out this already thoroughly debunked diatribe, and Skadi called you on it.

("Pilots for Truth" have been shown to be WRONG, WRONG, WRONG at every turn, every time. They've been raked over the coals, and handed their hats right here on the ATS Boards, numerous times. I wouldn't hitch my wagon to their "truth train", if I were you...):

Originally posted by impressme

[color=gold]United 93 Still Airborne After Alleged Crash - According To ATC/Radar
04/28/09 (PilotsFor911Truth.org) - Recently it has been brought to our attention that Air Traffic Control (ATC) transcripts reveal United 93 as being airborne after it's (ww edit...[sic]) alleged crash. Similar scenarios have been offered with regard to American 77 and American 11 showing an aircraft target continuing past its alleged crash point in the case of American 11, or past the turn-around point in the case of American 77. However, both these issues can be easily explained by "Coast Mode" radar tracking. This is not the case with United 93.
Full Article Here

Once again, as I have repeatedly informed you....(and Skadi reminded you) the entire 'discrepancy' amounted to a total of THREE minutes!!! AND, it is easily explained by the fact that the time reference ONBOARD the airplane (which was the only time reference that the CVR and DVR had to go by) was totally dependent on the setting of the Captain's clock. At that time, the onboard clocks (for that equipment at United Airlines) did NOT receive any updates from ground-based sources.

The ATC time reference was, of course, the actual time --- based on NIST standards from Ft. Collins, Colorado. THERE is the three minutes' difference!!! You have been told this, countless times. I will let others, here, judge you accordingly for continuing to attempt to USE this already busted "information".

"Pilots for Truth" don't bother to investigate any deeper, they merely JUMP at any chance that they think looks like some sort of 'flaw'...hence their total lack of credibility. IF THEY HAD stopped, for a moment, to consider this other explanation, then they wouldn't have such fools of themselves. BUT...their 'mission' really is all about the $$$....not the "truth" of 9/11.....

And people who fall for their baloney, garbage, crapola? They should take a moment to seriously re-examine the source.....




[edit on 3 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by Adam Syed


Adam, I watched that video, and found it to be very misleading, and suggestive, but light on facts. (I DO feel for the husband of UAL 93 F/A, one interviewed in beginning. However, his statement, as edited and presented, was misrepresented, and incomplete).

So, I looked up 'Domenick DiMaggio' and found some postings about him at JREF, and this one in particular seems to lay him to shame, pretty well:

Gravy 4th March 2009, 04:10 PM

DiMaggio (Terrorcell) has been "investigating" this for years, and he's still, despite being repeatedly corrected, making the despicable claim that first responders didn't see human remains?

"Not one person witnessed human remains at the Flight 93 crash site on 9/11. Despite many people searching for remains of anything throughout the immediate area none were seen...That is my conclusion based on over 2.5 years researching hands on with many many hours logged interviewing eyewitnesses in person, over the phone, through email, & on video."

What a [snipped pejorative, by weedwhacker] creep.

"After calling for backup from several area fire companies, King and the other firefighters, who had never responded to an airplane crash, surveyed the scene. None of them was prepared for what they saw. King recalls the paper strewn in the trees and clothing and shoes scattered on the ground. There were no bodies, he says. Just body parts. "That's when the sheer destruction of the crash really hit home," he says." Source www.psats.org...

"We think it is fascinating that all these people from across the United States want to see the crash site. It is interesting to talk with them," said King. ...When King and his crew arrived, they saw what smoking pieces remained of the plane. “There were small pieces everywhere and small signs of human remains. It was total destruction.” Source 74.125.95.132...:5HUtBBj9o3MJ:911digitalarchive.org/REPOSITORY/MISC_COLLECTIONS/janet_frank_atkinson/Flight_93_unedited.doc


When former firefighter Dave Fox arrived at the scene, "He saw a wiring harness, and a piston. None of the other pieces was bigger than a TV remote. He saw three chunks of torn human tissue. He swallowed hard. 'You knew there were people there, but you couldn't see them,' he says." Source www.pittsburghlive.com...

Miller didn't see remains on Sept. 11?


"He can remember his first time there, 10.45am, Tuesday, September 11 – the stench of jet fuel, still puddled on the ground...Miller was familiar with scenes of sudden and violent death, although none quite like this. Walking in his gumboots, the only recognisable body part he saw was a piece of spinal cord, with five vertebrae attached." Source www.theage.com.au...

"It would be nearly an hour before Miller came upon his first trace of a body part." Source (www.archive.org...)–


Excerpts from "Courage After the Crash: Flight 93" by Glenn J. Kashurba. SAJ Publishing, 2002.


Rick King: "We stopped and I opened the door. The smell of jet fuel was overpowering. I will never forget that smell; it is really burnt into my mind. ...I walked down the power line and got my first glimpse of human remains. Then I walked a little further and saw more."

Firefighter Mike Sube: "...There were enough fires that our brush truck was down there numerous times. ...I saw small pieces of human remains and occasionally some larger pieces. That was disturbing, but what was most disturbing was seeing personal effects."

Lieutenant Roger Bailey, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department: "We started down through the debris field. I saw pieces of fiberglass, pieces of airplane, pop rivets, and mail...Mail was scattered everywhere. ...the one guy who was with us almost stepped on a piece of human remains. I grabbed him, and he got about half woozy over it."

Crater was too small?


Reporter Jon Meyer, WJAC-TV, Johnstown: "There was a spot at the end where the emergency crews were gathering. I could see that it was smoking and burning a little bit. So I ran as fast as I could towards that spot. I ran right up to the crater. I was standing a few feet away, looking down into it. I was overwhelmed by the crater's depth and size, but there was nothing that I could identify as having been an airplane, except that there was this incredibly strong smell of jet fuel."

No recognizable plane parts?


Firefighter Mike Sube: "We made our way to a small pond. That's where I observed the largest piece of wreckage that I saw, a portion of the landing gear and fuselage. One of the tires was still intact with the bracket, and probably about three to five windows of the fuselage were actually in one piece lying there."


Shanksville VFD firefighter Keith Curtis: "I walked up to where the tire was on fire, probably a hundred feet past the crater. It was a big tire. I was thinking that this is a big jet. I hit it good with the hose and put it out. I stopped and 'poof,' it just started on fire again."

farm4.static.flickr.com...

And, this little gem:

16.5 7th March 2009, 01:01 PM

Persistent fraudster, and all around internet tough guy, Dom, has responded to the evidence presented in this thread that a first responder in Shanksville saw body parts. His response: the quote was false, and the author totally made it up. The author of the township newsletter is an NWO operative, I guess.

The sound you are hearing is a couple of dozen truthers palms hitting their faces. I assume that even a hard core truther would have to be embarrassed by the Dom’s hand waving away any contrary evidence.

I don’t know why the Citizen Disinformation Team even bothers, every post they make is just another knife in the back of the corpse that was the Truth movement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Somehow, I think, my external source messed up the page formatting...trying to find the fix.





[edit on 3 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by hooper

No wait, the "American Free Press" is one of your "official story" sources?????? Really???

No, I made a mistake, should've checked the site first, I wasn't familiar with it. Touche.

The point I made in that comment is still the same. They had a good reason for showing the pic and asking the question.

They debunked that American Free Press story, so that should be positive to you, and me to.

reply to post by hooper

The problem is, you feel that your government and all its employees (your fellow citizens) are ALWAYS lying to you. That is not rational. That is not healthy. You assume everything you hear that may or may not originate from the government is a lie until fully rebutted. This is a formula for disaster.

I think assuming that your government is always telling the truth, is the formula for disaster.

You still think they have your best interest at heart?

It's a formula for finding truth, if anything.

If they are not lying, then any claims of lies should be easily rebutted.

If they can't be easily rebutted, something might be there, and truth may be found.

I don't see how thinking like this, would hurt the people's interest, but then again, you are not rooting for the people are you?

Practically every single post in your 1,600+ post history is made in the 911 forum, or in 911-related topics.

So that's what you do, you come into a conspiracy forum and spend you free time supporting the OS, and debunking 911 conspiracies, with that particular intent.

What could you possibly have to gain intellectually by spending the last two years in the 911 forum exclusively, debunking conspiracy, on a conspiracy site?







[edit on 3-6-2010 by Point of No Return]

reply to post by weedwhacker

impressme, regarding your rude response to Skadi (totally uncalled for) you owe an apology.

I don’t owe anyone an apology, in fact you are out of line here. You are not the Moderator You are not allowed to reprimand anyone on ATS.

("Pilots for Truth" have been shown to be WRONG, WRONG, WRONG at every turn, every time. They've been raked over the coals, and handed their hats right here on the ATS Boards, numerous times. I wouldn't hitch my wagon to their "truth train", if I were you...):

That is not true and you know it. Had there been any proof to your erroneous allegations you would have been delighted to post some proof with credible sources.

Once again, as I have repeatedly informed you....(and Skadi reminded you)

Reminded me of what? Where are YOUR sources? Where is YOUR evidence?

I can ramble on, give my opinions, but we are looking for facts not opinions, right?

"Pilots for Truth" don't bother to investigate any deeper, they merely JUMP at any chance that they think looks like some sort of 'flaw'...hence their total lack of credibility.

Every person, every websites, that offers credible proof that the OS is a lie, under FOIMA, scientific findings, eyewitness accounts by Firemen, Police Officers, First responders, Professionals and so on… You dismiss, disregard, reject, most of the time.

This is a fact that no OS believer cannot show any credible proof to defend their OS fairytales.

Being a Truther, one does not need to embellish the truth, the truth speaks for it’s self. The OS is chuck full of proven lies. If our government had nothing to do with 911, then why did they lie about everything, stonewalled every inquiry, hired NIST to make up pseudo science to fool the public, why did the 911 commissioners lie in their reports and admitted to it.

If there was nothing to hide then why all the lies? Incompetence can’t allow four hijack commercial airliners fly around, highly restricted air space for an hour with so much as no interceptor intervening these planes.

Looks like an inside job, smells like an inside job, and acts like an inside job, there is no question, it is an inside job.

And people who fall for their baloney, garbage, crapola? They should take a moment to seriously re-examine the source.....

Like the OS that some of you support.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by impressme]

reply to post by Point of No Return

The point I made in that comment is still the same. They had a good reason for showing the pic and asking the question.

Actually I don't know what exactly what the "point" was. They showed the woman a picture of plane and rather than be a good interviewer and showing a number of similar planes and asking if any of them resembled what she saw, showed her a photo of a particluar model plane and said "this ISN'T the plane you saw, is it"?

Now, I have to go back and check that video again, but if I recall, another glaring problem was that nowhere in the video when she was describing her experiences does she ever say what day they happened. I believe the viewers are lead to assume it was the morning of September 11, 2001 but if you want to be taken seriously then that is the kind of stuff you have to offer.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Interesting info about the clock not updating. Certainly something to consider, as I generally know nothing about such clocks, how times are determined in such situations.

The three minute discrepancy has been a point of curiosity for me. It is a small time discrepancy. My husband's watch and the wall clock are seldom in sync, so I know times can be somewhat irregular.

I had always assumed that planes and ATCs would have prescision clocks in sync within microseconds, given the sensitivity and exactness that usually exists in such fields.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


Good questions, and they pertain to the events of UAL 93, and misconceptions/dissemblings that exist, which are no doubt fueled by the very existence of "pilots for truth".

To reiterate: (And, since I've done all the linking, many times, other threads, I'll forego that here...)

For a typical, domestic flight? No, the exact times aren't important, not in the way some might think...not down to the second. Just not necessary.

International operations? Well, more important of course, because of position reporting requirements, which include times..actual, and estimated, etc. But, a minute either way? Close enough too...safety buffers (separation) built in.

Nowadays, more and more airplanes have GPS installed, and THAT does automatically update the Captain's clock...but, pre-GPS? It was set manually. The other unit onboard (ACARS) is automated, and uplinks the exact time, in sync with the 'standards' form Ft. Collins. It sends the flight-following stats ('OFF' and 'ON' times) and the 'OUT' and 'IN' for airline on-time reporting (and crew pay!!).

But, the ACARS doesn't tie in to the Captain's clock, nor the FDR and CVR.

Captain's clock actually serves the Air Data Computer (talking the B-757/767 here), which then supplies time reference for other items. (Except, again...the ACARS).

I guess I can show ONE linky-dinky...pictures worth a thousand words, and all that....because setting the clock is a bit tricky...not hard, but it's like a VCR in some ways. Can get frustrating....

Here's an example of HOW to operate (set) the clock, and how the information is displayed and interpreted: (Takes a whole page).

757 clock.

(Sorry about the link...can't get that stupid 'contents' box to go away! Must be their website...)


[edit on 3 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by hooper


Omg, you obviously haven't watched the video at all. How many times do I have to explain this?

You keep commenting to my claims about the video, but everytime it's obvious you haven't watched it, or are playing dumb on purpose.

The asked her specifically about the A-10, because the American Free Press article claimed she had said she saw an A-10.

The guys specifically said he wanted to clarify that.

Now, I have to go back and check that video again, but if I recall, another glaring problem was that nowhere in the video when she was describing her experiences does she ever say what day they happened. I believe the viewers are lead to assume it was the morning of September 11, 2001 but if you want to be taken seriously then that is the kind of stuff you have to offer.

Hahaa, that's just weak!

Clutching at straws, Lol. How can you take yourself seriously, I wonder.

It's obviously about 911, they referenced it multiple times in regards to her statements.

She's obviously not talking about an encounter on a random day that is not 9-11.

Now for my question you wouldn't answer.

Why do you only post to 911 topics?

Why do you feel the need to come here in the fringe and fight the 911 conspiracy, and do only that?

It just doesn't look natural.

reply to post by Point of No Return


A-10:



Doesn't fit her description, at all.


Hawker bizjet:



Your turn.....






[edit on 3 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Thank you for the explaination, and the link (I'm bad with links, i stopped bookmarking stuff long ago). If domestic standard flights are not a super precision set thing, especiall in 2001, then a 3 minute time discrepancy is not really enough to warrant much thought.

I am more used to military operations on Air Bases, as I was stationed on one back in the 90's. They had fighters based there, as well as other pretty high-end stuff, and every clock around and the pilots watches were all synced pretty tight.

Never spent much time on pilots for truth. When I realized they were supporting the missile-hit-the-Pentagon rubbish, I pretty much facepalmed and left the site.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Shadow Herder made a very strong case in his/her opening posts. If you are going to call every site listed a damned fool conspiracy website or whatever, you continue denying the truth.

You, Dave, are poorly trained as a mis/dis informationist. You ignore facts and logic and instead base your opinions on your emotional loyalty to the GoodOlUSA. I am glad you are so patriotic Dave, but believing our government is innocent of all bad deeds is something quite different.

You sound like a proud mother protecting her not so innocent kid who got caught cheating or stealing or bullying a schoolmate. That doesn't help the kid or the mom; actually, it is just the opposite. The kid needs to know (1) that it is likely they will be caught and (2) that there are serious consequences for doing wrong. The most important lesson is that mom needs to stop hiding from the truth so she can properly discipline the child.

I hope you can do the same Dave, you need to open your eyes and take in some information that is real. No tin hats nonsense, but real photos, eyewitness accounts (against the plane crash story)and real evidence from people such as the ATC who discovered the restarted transponder minutes later and miles away. Don't jump and yell that they are all lying, or we misunderstood what they said, or they were paid to lie, etc., as that only makes you look more like a bad mother.

Stay patriotic Dave, and learn to accept the truth at the same time. Despite 9-11, I remain a loyal American and I do believe there are many good apples in the system.

Remember Dave, greed is in all man.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by truthcounts]

reply to post by weedwhacker


My turn, OK.

.........once again, this is getting unbelievable, one of you debunker.......guys, comes up with a reply to my post that is just not commenting on what was said.

And acts all victorious, to add to it.

I find it hard to believe you are actually that stupid, or are you?

Just tactics, I suppose.

Doesn't fit her description, at all.

Aargh!!! No it doesn't you......you.!!!

That's exactly what I'm saying. ! Another investigator claimed in an article that she had described the plane she saw, as an A-10 warthog.

In the video, they specifically asked about that, and showed the A-10 pic, she said that this was not what she saw, and also that she never described it or confirmed it as an A-10.

The guy in the vid said he just wanted to clarify that the other article was misrepresenting her.

Now wipe the drool of your chin.

Some time ago I watched a video of a woman describing what she saw. I have no doubt that she was telling the truth. She was sitting stopped at a traffic light when she saw a small white aircraft coming at her in her rear view mirror. It was only about 20 feet off the ground. She saw it fly past the intersection then swoop "under" some power lines, up and over some tall trees and crash into the field beyond. I believe it was a cruise missile. Her testimony appeared absolutely sincere and believable. Does anybody here know where I can find this video as it seems to have been deleted from the web. I would love to get a copy to keep on my computer.

reply to post by terry853


That's the video we're discussing here. At least I am, those other guys are just saying random things, that are off. It's their little tactic.

I posted it on page 6, here it is;

www.youtube.com...

And your right, she is sincere.

reply to post by Point of No Return


No...not "tactics"....

Some of us simply are Human. And (can't speak for others) I tend to multi-task when on ATS. Sometimes to my (quality) detriment.

Point is....I HAVE seen that very SAME video, it was months (a year??) ago. I just don't care to sit through the malarkey again....and didn't realy want to devote ANOTHER 9+ minutes....

However. since it's so derned important to you, I will devote an entire ATS moment to it, taking notes and everything.... (perhaps tomorrow)...and will come back with an analysis and attempt to explain just WHY that particular "tool" iin the 'truther' toolkit doesn't quite get the job done....

What I recall from it is...it's been floating around int eh blogosphere for quite some time....(despite the posting date shown by the YT uploader, on his/her 'channel').

SO>...while I'm not an 'expert' on every fringe claim from the various 'truthers' out there (and there are so many, and contradictory sometimes, who could be??) I have been exposed to many of them, from time to time, and just by osmosis....they seep in, and sometimes mix together....

What I AM able to speak about, with some (modest) amount of experience and authority, will be aspects that are aviation-related. I will let others dissect the less-than-sterling "journalistic" methods employed in these videos ( speaking of people using "tactics"!! ). But, some gaffes are so glaring, even I am sometimes able to recognize them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just an edit, to respond to comments below:

Added after my post, where I said I'd be back with an in-depth analysis....how about a little patience, instead of the half-cocked attitude?













[edit on 3 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker

No...not "tactics"....

I see a pattern amongst you guys.

Some of us simply are Human. And (can't speak for others) I tend to multi-task when on ATS. Sometimes to my (quality) detriment.

A mistake is human, but you guys are way off on the contents off the video that we are discussing, the whole time.

Point is....I HAVE seen that very SAME video, it was months (a year??) ago. I just don't care to sit through the malarkey again....and didn't realy want to devote ANOTHER 9+ minutes....

No, because why would you show interest in actually knowing what the discussed evidence exactly is about, if your intention is spread disinfo about the evidence and deflect it?

However. since it's so derned important to you, I will devote an entire ATS moment to it, taking notes and everything.... (perhaps tomorrow)...and will come back with an analysis and attempt to explain just WHY that particular "tool" iin the 'truther' toolkit doesn't quite get the job done....

Excuse, but I just posted it, and never invited you to discuss it, It apperently was important enough for you to participate in this ongoing discussion.

I'm eagerly awaiting your argumentation, it'll be refreshing after all this empty rethoric and evasive manouvering.

SO>...while I'm not an 'expert' on every fringe claim from the various 'truthers' out there (and there are so many, and contradictory sometimes, who could be??) I have been exposed to many of them, from time to time, and just by osmosis....they seep in, and sometimes mix together....

Jeah, so you are admitting that you just hop into threads, and start debunking from the top of your mind, stating things as fact, without actually checking, and just hoping you are correct, or at least that people won't know you're wrong, or not going to confront you?

Don't waste my time by making dumb comments you can refute yourself if you watch the discussed evidence.

I will let others dissect the less-than-sterling "journalistic" methods employed in these videos

Lol, so sad. More baseless discredting of evidence, live witnesses and all.

WW, it's so blatantly obvious, who do you think you are kidding?