Absolute proof: A Pentagon picture montage from start to finish

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

The fires burning within the Pentagon were hotter than that of a crematorium and burned for days, not hours. I am having a hard time understanding how DNA survived more extreme circumstances than being cremated.

Even in those conditions, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) survives in bone fragments. Cremation remains (cremains) usually have small pieces of bone in them, and those can be used for mtDNA typing, too. I worked on a project similar to this, where we had exhumed remains of unknown individuals of varying conditions. both buried and cremated. The oldest we were able to recover in my meagre university lab was 142-years old, all by grinding down the bone and exposing the innermost layer of cells (endosteum) remaining.

Heat of that magnitude will certainly damage a good deal of the DNA, but I would put a large sum of money on some endosteum cells remaining intact enough to type the mtDNA. This is doubly true for those pieces of remains that still had soft tissue. That would suggest that the underlying bone was still wet to some degree, improving DNA content a thousand-fold, at least.

[edit on 2/7/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

Originally posted by arizonascott
reply to post by 13AJJONES

 

Something everyone who supports the Government version refuses to look at:

And here is where the cover-up gets really easy for anyone to see and to understand - this one issue makes the Pentagon issue so clear

Read this and think about it - really think

THE PENTAGON: The "most" secure facility in the United States!

There must be over 300 cameras located in and around the entire facility!

Hundreds of cameras - yet not one "CLEAR" image of a plane!

No image/video of it flying in
No image/video of the entire plane just before the moment of impact
No inside office image/video Pentagon image of it flying in through the walls


No clear image period! There is no way that the guard shack was the only camera aimed in the direction of impact and that the only camera available was a slow frame rate camera.

And why did they rush over and quickly confiscate the surveillance camera tapes mounted outside the quicky mart and the bank across the street from the Pentagon unless there was something you didn't want someone to see?

And if there is video of a plane (not a missle or something else) - why not show it and prove to "Truthers" once and for all that there was a plane and end the debate!

The Pentagon! The "most" secure facility in "AMERICA"

No live cameras? No live digital cameras? Hundreds of cams and "NOT ONE" showing any clear shot of a plane

Just one frame by frame cam in the guard shack showing - what?!

Come on!

[edit on 7-2-2010 by arizonascott]

You my good sir are using what I like to call common sense. Obviously not everyone has it.

Originally posted by CAELENIUM

Originally posted by tac109
The picture provided of a piece of the metal of the aircraft that hit the pentagon laying on the lawn looks to me as being simply a part from a Navy F16 fighter jet. The colourations are typical USA Navy fighter jet type colours.

[edit on 6/2/2010 by CAELENIUM]

The Navy has never deployed the F-16. The Navy has F-18s and FA-18s. See, www.fas.org...

And what about the plain fact an airliner flying that low over a city would have been seen by thousands of people so where are the thousands of witness statements?

In fact given the number of witnesses that should have been, at least some would be able to snap a photo on their mobile........

reply to post by malcr


There are two airports within a few miles of the Pentagon, and one more just a few miles north of those. If I was driving/walking along and saw one relatively low, I would probably assume that it was coming in for a landing at one of those first two airports. I'm certainly not an expert in aviation, so I wouldn't really be able to judge how low is too low. The flight didn't even start dipping below it's 35000 feet altitude until it was 3.5 miles from the Pentagon, and collided with the building just nine minutes later. For most of that time, it was above 7000 feet. I don't think anyone would have thought it was too low until the last 30-60 seconds. I don't think "thousands" of people would have really noticed anything unusual, just the few people near the Pentagon whose accounts have already been given.

[edit on 2/7/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

[edit on 2/7/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

Originally posted by arizonascott
reply to post by 13AJJONES

 

Something everyone who supports the Government version refuses to look at:

And here is where the cover-up gets really easy for anyone to see and to understand - this one issue makes the Pentagon issue so clear

Read this and think about it - really think

THE PENTAGON: The "most" secure facility in the United States!

There must be over 300 cameras located in and around the entire facility!

Hundreds of cameras - yet not one "CLEAR" image of a plane!

No image/video of it flying in
No image/video of the entire plane just before the moment of impact
No inside office image/video Pentagon image of it flying in through the walls


No clear image period! There is no way that the guard shack was the only camera aimed in the direction of impact and that the only camera available was a slow frame rate camera.

And why did they rush over and quickly confiscate the surveillance camera tapes mounted outside the quicky mart and the bank across the street from the Pentagon unless there was something you didn't want someone to see?

And if there is video of a plane (not a missle or something else) - why not show it and prove to "Truthers" once and for all that there was a plane and end the debate!

The Pentagon! The "most" secure facility in "AMERICA"

No live cameras? No live digital cameras? Hundreds of cams and "NOT ONE" showing any clear shot of a plane

Just one frame by frame cam in the guard shack showing - what?!

Come on!

[edit on 7-2-2010 by arizonascott]

Your argument seems to be largely based on your personal incredulity.

You are also basing your argument on a myth that the Pentagon is "The most secure facility in America." It is not, it is basically a huge office, an administrative centre. It is not a fort, it has no gun emplacements, barbed wire or machine gun nests. It has a modest police force who are lightly armed like regular police. It is ringed by major roads and thousands drive close by it every day. Anyone could swing into one of the parking lots.

If you want to look at somewhere, by way of contrast, that is really secure then have a look at Fort Knox. Even there though I am not sure how many security cameras would be directed at the sky in case a rogue airliner should show up.

You say why were video-tapes taken from other nearby premises. Well, wouldn't that be standard procedure in the proximity of a major crime scene. Here is one from the Citgo Station across the way which has long been available on the net :-

www.youtube.com...

What does it show, surprise, surprise, people filling their cars and paying the cashier. This is what security cameras are designed to do, pay attention to a specific local activity.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


OK I am not talking about cremains. I am discussing remains that spent DAYS in fires that were 3-4 times the heat of a crematorium. Sorry if that was not clear.

edit to add: and yes I would like more than "Trust me it is what I do for a living." We have enough of those on here that cannot keep their lies straight already. Just a simple link to some info or explain it to me and tell me where I can go check for myself...that sort of thing would be really nice, thanks.


[edit on 2/7/10 by Lillydale]

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

OK I am not talking about cremains. I am discussing remains that spent DAYS in fires that were 3-4 times the heat of a crematorium. Sorry if that was not clear.

And, as I stated, scientifically, it's not impossible that mtDNa was still recoverable from the endosteum. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible, especially when you consider the heat distribution at the site was uneven, suggesting that there were pockets of lower or higher temperature in the wreckage. Couple this with the fact that some remains still had soft tissue, and your odds of being able to recover DNA is very high.

Keep in mind, you don't need an entire genome to identify someone, just a handful (usually 13) stretches of DNA that are each about 20 bases long. That's not much DNA at all, and it can be recovered from even nearly obliterated DNA.

edit to add: and yes I would like more than "Trust me it is what I do for a living." We have enough of those on here that cannot keep their lies straight already. Just a simple link to some info or explain it to me and tell me where I can go check for myself...that sort of thing would be really nice, thanks.


[edit on 2/7/10 by Lillydale]

I really don't know where to point you, other than a few basic genetics and genomics textbooks. DNA is a high-integrity molecule, capable of withstanding incredible stress, both mechanical and oxidative. If you do some of the research for yourself on PubMed, you'll see there are plenty of studies examining the integrity and validity of DNA evidence under various conditions. The FBI even runs a few projects on things like this.

Like I said, I don't really know what "site" I could show you that would prove something that's just a given in genetics. I would suggest searching PubMed.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


So really just more guesses about why you think something should have happened. You do realize how many "experts" are arguing over how the buildings should have fallen. Apparently someone is wrong or lying. Anyway, it really does not matter since I never believed any remains we recovered there. There was more than enough time to come up with exactly what they needed to drop off at the lab and never even really had to plant it but could have done that as well. A few days is more than enough time to hide a few Easter eggs. I was just hoping that you might have something besides guesses. Thanks.

Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Nola213

 

The guy clicking on his Quicktime app doesn't understand the concept of frame rates and syncing them. If the Pentagon cam was on 3 frames per second (to save data), but his computer based Quicktime app is on let's say 24 frames he'd have to click 8 times as much to sync them up. The plane doesn't suspend physics and just sits there in mid-air. It's just a matter of taking 24 or 3 pics per second.

This part of his video is total BS. Sorry! I don't believe the OS for a second, but the antidote is not more ignorance from our side.

Best,

N

[edit on 6-2-2010 by Nichiren]

Thanks very much for clearing that up for me Nichiren. Yea I agree with you, that the OS has some serious faults within it, but some of the "far-out"
"truthers" as people call them, alot of the times do more harm then good with some of the theories they come up with.

thnx again,

Nola

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

So really just more guesses about why you think something should have happened.

Nope. There is ample scientific precedent to support the recovery of mtDNA from those bodies. I gave you a great resource for finding that research, and you seem to be unwilling to even look. Just go to PubMed and dive right in.

You do realize how many "experts" are arguing over how the buildings should have fallen. Apparently someone is wrong or lying.

What does that have to do with genetics?

Anyway, it really does not matter since I never believed any remains we recovered there. There was more than enough time to come up with exactly what they needed to drop off at the lab and never even really had to plant it but could have done that as well. A few days is more than enough time to hide a few Easter eggs. I was just hoping that you might have something besides guesses. Thanks.

Ah, so THAT'S why you refuse to look at any research. Anything that would pop your little bubble immediately "doesn't matter" and "was planted". Interesting. I would be more than happy to look at any evidence you have to show that genetic data couldn't be recovered from the site. As it stands, all you've said is, "'Well, it was REALLY REALLY HOT!", with no evidence that all the bodies were exposed to that heat or that the information recovered was nuclear versus mitochondrial DNA.

All I've done is provide the POSSIBILITY, not the CERTAINTY, that genetic information could be recovered. The fact that you're so threatened by a mere possibility is very telling.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Forensic laboratories occasionally use mtDNA comparison to identify human remains, and especially to identify older unidentified skeletal remains. Although unlike nuclear DNA mtDNA is not specific to one individual, it can be used in combination with other evidence (anthropological evidence, circumstantial evidence, and the like) to establish identification.

In other words its used to identify ONLY if a sample is provided by a living relative or ancestor.

All I've done is provide the POSSIBILITY, not the CERTAINTY, that genetic information could be recovered.

Thats still not solid enough to say that all of the victims were ID'd as some have claimed.



[edit on 7-2-2010 by mikelee]

reply to post by mikelee


I said exactly that a few posts up. Mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited, and varies only slightly between individuals. If you have a control sample from the mother, sibling, or maternal-line relative, then you can identify the remains. This is probably why we haven't been able to identify the remains of the hijackers, as we have no control sample (I would imagine).

reply to post by Alfie1

I spent some time on the (red line?)subway right under what's called Crystal City.This complex housed the patent office which was my business there,but also serviced the Pentagon and a bunch of high Gov't offices.

In the 1980's there were armed guards with actual machine guns down in the metro.No one batted an eye.Therefore I don't believe it when I hear about no gunners protecting the Pentagon and it's people.

You can replace bricks and wires and files,but not particular experts.That's why the perps chose that side to hit.After all,a relatively easy maneuver like a nose dive into the roof would have probably hurt some of the folks needed to carry out the subsequent plans.They couldn't just have another of those coinkie-dinkie mock terror drill bldg evacuations.Someone had to be managing the half dozen other drills going on that day.So they hit the side where the experts were.Guess which ones?

And I still think we need to know who was at the (vice)President Cheney's energy task force meeting,and what did they talk about hadda be so secret?


PSOne more thing,twin fuel tanks would have made twin explosions,DOH!!!

[edit on 7-2-2010 by trueforger]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Your exactly right as the hijacker's familys did refuse to provide a sample.

reply to post by trueforger


No gunners? Or people with guns maybe is what you intended?

In my career I have been to the Pentagon and I'll tell anyone that there are Force Protection Agency Officers armed with MP5's and an assortment of other weapons as well including some vehicle mounted ones too. Not to foget to mention that there are many, many agency alphabet types with weapons on site also. With that said there are areas where weapons are to be checked into mini gun vaults when entering as well.

[edit on 7-2-2010 by mikelee]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

What does that have to do with genetics?

I thought you were having a problem reading what I was actually writing. Sorry, let me try to be more clear. ATS is full of people who claim that we should take their word on things because of who they claim to be. This is the internet. We can all claim to be anything we like. Many of these folks end up tripping over their own lies and it taints every post they ever made. This is why I asked for something specific.

I did not say I was not going to look into anything. It is noon on a sunday and it is about 16 degrees outside. Did you think I was running off to the University library already? I did not call it bunk, it is just not what I asked you for. Before you berate me for ignoring it, how about enough time to even look at it?

I was just interested in seeing if one of these 'experts' could actually tell me that mDNA can survive X amount of time in X amount of degrees and here is why. I thought that was a simple question. I am sorry you cannot answer it but then maybe you should not speak so definitively about the matter then.

Originally posted by Crito
with literally hundreds of security cameras.

please show some proof of these "hundreds of security cameras" from a valid source.

why not release the other 85 reported recordings of the event?

probably because they do not film anything that shows the Pentagon

Perhaps that's because the fireball it shows looks very much like high explosives, not jet fuel.

no, it looks exactly like jet fuel - again, it is a low frame rate camera

I did not say I was not going to look into anything. It is noon on a sunday and it is about 16 degrees outside. Did you think I was running off to the University library already? I did not call it bunk, it is just not what I asked you for. Before you berate me for ignoring it, how about enough time to even look at it?

No one suggested going to the library. I gave you a public database of all published research, both biological and otherwise.

I was just interested in seeing if one of these 'experts' could actually tell me that mDNA can survive X amount of time in X amount of degrees and here is why. I thought that was a simple question.

The reason I can't give you a simple answer is because it isn't a simple situation. How hot was it, exactly? Were ALL tissues exposed to the same temperatures? Did the temperatures vary over time? What was the oxygen content of the heated environment and what amount of oxidative damage did the tissues sustain as a result? Was this damage consistent over all tissues? How much soft tissue was present? Was it inside or outside the burn region? Was it moist or dessicated? Did the bone inside the soft tissue remain hydrated, or was it dessicated, as well?

That's just a SMALL sampling of the questions you would have to answer in order to conclusively state that NO genetic information could be recovered. Without knowing that information, none of which is likely to have been measured or made available, the best I can do is tell you: "Yes, mtDNA has been recovered from similar bodies in similar situations".

I am sorry you cannot answer it but then maybe you should not speak so definitively about the matter then.

Hello, pot. This is kettle.


[edit on 2/7/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]