brains in a vat

Just came across a very interesting book-Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy. He poses a very interesting and somewhat disturbing question- how do we know for sure that we are not just brains in a vat as part of a scientific experiment?

Um, could you elaborate further? I don't really see what your getting at.

Basicaly, Descartes posed the question that all our life, beliefs and emotions could be false. Electro-magnetic pulses sent to the brain as part of a scientific experiment. He claimed that one could not be 100% certain that we have a physical form and we are not just a brain experiencing emotions.

For example, how do we feel pain- the brain tells us so. Signals are sent to the brain, which in turn translates them into our notion of pain.

You are
Didn't you see The Matrix?

Originally posted by gvret
how do we know for sure that we are not just brains in a vat as part of a scientific experiment?

I did. Descartes was a philosopher around 1640 AD.

I suppose there really is no way to determine that, is there?

I also saw The Matrix. Mabey this is what the Wachowski brothers based their movie on.

[Edited on 28/5/04 by Sterling46]

Right now, I feel as though my brain is, in fact, suspended in a vat of some glutinous fluid, this vat being my skull and this fluid being a rather large quantity of mucus.

And, just a while ago, I took the red pill... the bottle said "Ibuprofen", but can we really be sure of anything, any more?

How deep does the rabbit hole go, Xenographer?

[Edited on 5-28-2004 by Xenographer]

You're absolutely correct, there's no way we could actually determine whether or not our bodies actually exist (for that matter, we can't determine if anything truly exists) - all we know for certain is that our minds exist (Cogito, ergo sum) . Many of the great philosophers have pondered this.

Plato considered a twist on it in Republic: he invented a cave, where people are bound from birth. Their keepers project shadows on the wall in front of them, basically controlling what they see. Of course, they know no other existence, so they have no reason to question what is happening. They eventually are released by some stranger, but not without a bit of a struggle. (This was probably the Wachowski brothers inspiration for The Matrix.

One philospher (I don't recall who at the moment) actually proposed that everything our senses produce are illusions, and should not be trusted. I'll dig through my books and see if I can find this.

The question is, does it really matter? For arguments sake, let's assume that someone could prove that our universe is an illusion. Would you change your life in any way? Would this revelation cause you to lose interest in life? Probably not.

[Edited on 5/28/2004 by PurdueNuc]

excellent question, purdueNuc. i think that if i were to find out that everything is an illusion, i would look at things differently and go about my life a whole lot different; it would be an avantage as to how to live - maybe not everyone could handle the truth, if there is a hidden one though...

Originally posted by PurdueNuc
You're absolutely correct, there's no way we could actually determine whether or not our bodies actually exist (for that matter, we can't determine if anything truly exists) - all we know for certain is that our minds exist (Cogito, ergo sum) . Many of the great philosophers have pondered this.

Technically incorrect, sorry...
The Cogito Ergo Sum says, when not literally translated, that we only exist when we are actively thinking
There is no proof for existance in the past
(By 'we', I mean one's own mind)
Descarte does dismiss this total scepticism however, He has a wide range of arguments to support him,
1) If we are to say all things we know are false, then we must have something to compare it against (This is commonly called the coin argument -- If all coins are forgeries, where is the reality they are based upon)
2) Descartes believed in a 'Supreme and Infinite Being', and he said that this supreme and infinite being would not deceive us, nor would he allow us to be actively deceived by another being.... The only thing that deceives us is our own perceptions, when they are not clear and distinct.

The Brain-in-vat idea is an interesting theory, but it is no longer seriously considered

that's a lot of brains il a lot of vats!!!

Maybe we are brains, in some funky clearish fluid, in a tidy glass jar, on a shelf, along with many other jars, amongst many shelves, in a large room, filled with massively tall and long columns of shelves, in a huge warehouse, on a compound with many warehouses, as far as could be seen.

Wonder who my neighbors are, and what kind of experience they are having ?

a reply to: gvret

Boltzmann brains in a vat?

en.wikipedia.org...

A brain encased in a cavity of bone that controls an organism. The organism provides locomotion, sight, auditory senses, touch, and olfactory senses. This provides a way for the brain to get what it needs to survive, which may be more or less depending on what it has experienced. The brain also craves serotonin and dopamine to stimulate feelings of pleasure and contentment. Serotonin and dopamine are secreted in response to different consumed substances, as well as, physical and mental experiences.

a reply to: eManym

I too have pondered this, but with a slightly different twist, where reality is observed and constructed in ones own mind. The electro magnetic pulses are decoded into observed reality , where we don't see with the eyes, we actually see when the decoded signals, are processed by the mind. Which without their focus would be an immense void. Somehow from being a baby who in theory could be decoding an infinity of realities, and choosing the one most liked. We tend to get stuck in the continuum, where the primary code interpretation is from the human mother. Whereas humans who from childhood who have been brought up by Chimpanzees, Chickens or Dogs have a different interpretation of reality, which they cant shake. In point of fact they could be considered to have a human body but are essentially , a Chimpanzee a Chicken or a Dog. Or are they just pretending to be thus, as we are pretending to be human? which could be quite frightening to the psyche and thus making us moribund in our Paradigms, with the result an unwillingness to change, even though it be for the better. Nothing being perfect for the simple reason with perfection comes an inability to change or adapt to the passage of times changing circumstances and would lead to extinction., thus causes glitches from time to time in the ultimate perception to agreed reality where a flying saucer or Bigfoot is materialized no less real but soon put to bed again for the sake of maintaining the paradigm. The Conclusion being at some point in the void we are all one , being able to agree or disagree on some point on the observed human reality. But never actually observing the same thing.

a reply to: anonentity

Its the old question really, are we Human or are we dancers?

Did we simply just make up reailty because we are board, thus fracture a single lonely consciousness into billions of different minds?

The universe seems to be a big place all the same to be crearing our own perspectives whist stuck down here on this rock at the arse end of a gravity well.

a reply to: gvret
Or bombs?

a reply to: andy06shake

double post

a reply to: andy06shake

In a synchronistic way, I stumbled on this which sort of proves that when these glitches happen, they don't make any logical sense, but they are probably happening all the time but deleted automatically, sometimes they don't get deleted . Like when this B 17 lands itself , it could be coincidence , but the crew were all safe and well. Its as if they had two options , one would be deleted but the Universe was to busy. If they jumped as they did, how come the parachutes and flying gear were duplicated?

a reply to: anonentity

Pretty interesting.

The only thing that springs to mind is a load of the bomber crews reported encountering strange lights and the like(Foo Fighters).

Maybe they got abducted?