Russian 5th Generation Stealth Fighter PAK-FA has flown.

It all started with the concorde.....the russians had something that looked just like it.

Then there was this space-shuttle twin claiming to be russian.

And now there is this F22 rip-off......

They still haven't found the spy or they are working together..simple as that.

reply to post by zatara


possible.. but its a theory that is justifiable both ways.. (the spy bit).

as much as that looks like a knock off of the f 22 it just doesnt look like it could compete in stealth against the f 22. nothing to worry about with this jet.

Good Evening ATS,

Just doing my first post and venting some thoughts,

I personally think that the PAK-FA will become operational in one way or another and will probably be good or at least put up as a yet another prototype for home brewed Russian engineering, but think about it = is it really going to be finished to 2015 and roll out from its hangars into the sky?

Dose Russia have magic scientist that possesses more knowledge than the rest of us so that they could produce a war machine that looks quite similar to there enemy's "Namely USAF F22 raptor or the experimental YF-23" in just a fraction of the time it took for the USA? and also that in fact USA have a extreme budget compared to the Russians "for what is of public knowledge"

I think that it will be like the F22 program some lobbyist say its will be ready by the year "15" but really it will not be ready before the year "35" because of technicalities of different kinds.

When it comes down to its design I'm on the same track as the 2 people mentioned in the CNN article that someone posted earlier in this thread, that it is probably an experiment because at one says this is Russia's first step into building a (IMHO) first of its type real precision aircraft that is also to be commercial witch is a extremely interesting aspect of the project.

As a scientist there are some general things one understands quickly and that is as following:

1. Scientist in general are equal as good no matter what country of origin they come from.
2. Scientist is allays just a handful of people compared to the total population of a country.
3. There are of course some scientist that has that little extra and lives a little here and there around the world but they are a handful compared to the total population of the world.
4. In the long run it is all about the budget that they have to engineer with and and how experienced they are with practical problems, and that is still an area that Russia is struggling in, but it should also be mentioned that in the last decades they have come forward.


By the way most of Russia's extreme physicist and mathematicians are often alone working on there stuff not supporting the Russian government in contrary to other country with heavy military development departments like USA Germany Sweden and so on.

Excuse my English.

By for now

ATP Out!

reply to post by ATheoreticalPhysicist


i find it odd to read and interpret some form of doubt coming from someone who calls him/herself a theoretical physicist. try looking into petr ufimtsev and then come back here and kindly explain why you don't think russia can produce the pakfa. if i recall correctly, it seems that india is helping them design this plane (the avionics part i think).

Originally posted by zatara
It all started with the concorde.....the russians had something that looked just like it.

Then there was this space-shuttle twin claiming to be russian.

And now there is this F22 rip-off......

They still haven't found the spy or they are working together..simple as that.

The Tupolev Tu 144 and the Buran we almost forgot...The Tu 144 was actually build with espionage but the Russians brought it earlier in production and in the air...The Buran only made one unmanned flight then the USSR collapsed.[It was their most expensive space program]
As long as the US is one step ahead with innovating you have nothing to worry about...[the fact that the US left the F117 for scrap behind and moves along with new stealth models]

[edit on 21-6-2010 by Foppezao]

reply to post by ATheoreticalPhysicist


I would like to think of it this way. Why would you think that only the US is capable of producing a modern fighter? Isn't that a bit ignorant to think so?

Ain't it a lot cheaper to produce something that is as good as the F-22. Instead of creating a whole new design. Why do Russia have to create or make something totally different, If the PAK FA will do the job?

Russia is not creating the PAK FA to satisfy our needs to see something revolutionary. Russia dont have a responsibility to create something out of the ordinary just to make us happy.

It seams like people imagined that Russia was going to create a fighting space ship of some kind. They probably will if the US builds one first. But until then, Russia dont have to spend money on something they dont need.

Hi again,

Where do i claim that the PAK-FA must be revolutionary or that it will "NOT" be built.

What i have only said that i dont personally beleve that Russia magicaly will make a aircraft that will compete with the F22 Raptor in record time while others like the ones mentioned in the CNN report says that this is Russias "first step to a 5gen fighter"

I am convinced that there will be a pak-fa of some sort, if that now haves to be clarifyed.

And just a last ting where did i state that US is the only who can build a morden fighter?

Cheers ATP!

[edit on 21-6-2010 by ATheoreticalPhysicist]

reply to post by ATheoreticalPhysicist


What are you talking about? The Sukhoi T-50 is the PAKFA fighter concept and has been for a very long time. I've had official concept images of the T-50 pulled straight off the internet from years ago, this is the real deal.

And obviously it's only in its experimental stages right now, just like any other modern jet fighter goes through in development stages. Will the production model be different? Obviously. Production model will include new engines, avionics and fifth gen weaponry.

And if you want to get all gung ho about how inferior the T-50 is to the F22, then let me assure you that Russia has a few years to produce T-50s because their current air force is already at a level capable of sustaining combat operations against the US (Which is the world's leading military power so the Russians wouldn't need to waste resources on a force to match anything stronger). And if you consider actual air combat experience, Russia has more from their week long curbstomp of the Georgian military than the US does from bombing opium farmers and rebels in the middle east.

Hi again,

Yes development takes time, Yes Russia dose have a capability against US in air force.

What is the point?

I personally as well as some friends of mine believe that people here are starting to get cranky because i didn't come in to this particular thread and say something like "ALL MIGHTY PAK-FA NICE GOOD GOOD GOOD" and well i wont that is not objective that why i don't nether state that the F22 must be the best or always will be the best, time to change where this is going.

So now for a little new question instead, anyone got confirmed officially that Russia is working on so called 5gen engines?

And what is this 5gen weaponry they are building, is that confirmed to or speculation?

ATP

[edit on 22-6-2010 by ATheoreticalPhysicist]

[edit on 22-6-2010 by ATheoreticalPhysicist]

Originally posted by minkey53
reply to post by Jinni

 

Mates of mine were in the first Gulf War in 1990 and they were told to stop where they were (advancing on the Iraq Army on foot and in vehicles). It was night time by the way!..............................................

Yes thats the second time i've come across that story and would say it's more than likly true.

God knows what China has.

Originally posted by zatara
It all started with the concorde.....the russians had something that looked just like it.

Then there was this space-shuttle twin claiming to be russian.

And now there is this F22 rip-off......

They still haven't found the spy or they are working together..simple as that.

lol, i think the americans can look through anyones eyes on earth, so why would you need to pay spies.

On topic, do you not think america has stolen from russian science too?

Originally posted by ATheoreticalPhysicist
So now for a little new question instead, anyone got confirmed officially that Russia is working on so called 5gen engines?

And what is this 5gen weaponry they are building, is that confirmed to or speculation?

I'm not a theoretical physicist or anything, but this information is easily available on the internet. The engines used in the T-50 prototype are made by NPO Saturn and are classified, though suspected to be a more advanced version of the SU-35BM's AL-41F engines.

I said it was going to be equipped with fifth gen weaponry because that's the information I looked up when I wrote a report on the PAK FA for university not too long ago. Most notably would be anti-AWACS missiles with 400km+ range and anti-carrier missiles for naval T-50s that will be deployed on the carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and two other future Russian carrier projects.

The self righteous ramplings of our American cousins from across the pond is truely amazing. Spying works both ways by God and don't you forget it.

If the GRU had not stolen the plans for what eventually because the Su-25 Frogfoot, the USA would never have developed the A10 Thunderbolt II tank buster.

Let's get one thing in its proper perspective. The Russian designer stables of Sukoi, Mikoyan and Tupolev have designed absolutely stunning aircrfat which, over the years, have been able to perform some stunning stunts.

The Russians have also designed a helmet which enabled their pilots to have an unbeatable Look/Shoot/Kill capability, something which the West did not manage to achieve before the Apache came on the scene.

When the Cobra maneouvre was whitnessed for the first time, it scared the pants off the NATO air forces and whilst many still regard this as nothing more than a gimmic, there is still a place for it in the modern ariel battlefield in much the same way as Viffing in a Harrier is now an accepted maneouvre.

That the Russian helmet allows the pilot to look with and aim all his weapon systems at an enemy aircraft during the Cobra Maneouvre is truely startling and this does give the pilot a slight advantage.

One thing the Russians do lack, is knowledge of I.T. They lagg behind the West by up to about 5 years, but that gap is closing all the time.

Yes, America has super stealth but, if you know how to detect it, especially when its raining, you can shoot a stealthy aircraft down, as was demonstrated in the former Kosovo.

nice to see you russian soldier,and jinni is right,were 2010,and the russians got this "new plane"
the real technologies they use they can battle aliens lol

Originally posted by zatara
It all started with the concorde.....the russians had something that looked just like it.

Umm...hate to break it to you but so did the US.

See, when it comes to supersonic airframes for large aircraft carrying a heavy payload of fuel and cargo/weapons, there is this thing called aerodynamic efficiency. It kind of can't be ignored.

So, be it Concorde, the TU-144 or the Boeing SST (or, come to think of it, the XB-70 Valkyrie, which was a similar size - as is the TU-160 Blackjack) the Mirage IV and even the B1 Bomber there is going to be a family resemblance. Can't be helped, because you can't throw a large plane through the air supersonically any other way.

Then there was this space-shuttle twin claiming to be russian.

See above. The physics of the operation only allow for certain solutions. It can be argued that Buran was smaller, more efficient and a generation ahead of the US Shuttle Fleet - Buran is the ONLY Orbiter to have been launched, and landed under full automation. It can also be argued quite successfully that the Energia heavy lift launcher system is considerably more advanced and reliable than its US counterparts.

And now there is this F22 rip-off......

Except its nothing of the sort, because - as I have pointed out above, the physics mean that certain planes, designed for certain purposes, are going to have to share some characteristics. The size of the aircraft, and the control surfaces may be slightly different, but the general principles remain the same.

Its nothing to do with spies or, frankly, bombastic american ego. Its all to do with physics, aerodynanics and propulsion.

reply to post by zatara


Wow what a compelling argument.

So everyone else who has built a car, must have copied the first car eh?

Ford and Holden produce cars in Australia. The two main family sedans have some similar looks over the years.
Does that mean that they are copying each other or have spies?

Jet aircraft all look similar, be it Airbus, Boeing, Tupolev, etc.

Fighter jets all have similar characteristics too.


Did you stop to think that maybe some things are similar for a reason?

I agree with some of the others. I mean it looks exactly like the F22. I suppose In an engagement most of the weapons we would use against each other would be almost identical. Except the assault rifles.

They don't look exactly the same.

Here is a front view comparison. Of course these are line drawings, but they are accurate and it gives a great understanding of how the F22 and PAK FA/T50 do not look identical.
You will immediately notice they are TWO very different air craft.

F22
www.fas.org...

PAK FA
i47.tinypic.com...

Of course they share characteristics in design, BECAUSE THEY ARE STEALTH FIGHTER JETS. Cars share similar characteristics too, be it a Renault, Ford, Toyota or Audi. I don't see any of you whining about that though?

Here's another view of both planes in flight from an almost identical angle.
If you tell me the two aircraft look identical you need to have your eyes checked.

F22
www.infosnow.ne.jp...

PAKFA
blog.flightstory.net...


Seriously I really do not understand how anyone can think they are identical.

reply to post by neformore


Umm, hate to break it to you, but the PAK-FA is not a true 5th Gen fighter.....more like a 4.5.