I have a great feeling! (updated again)

Today i when i was outside i noticed a beautiful green grasshopper was caught in a spider web, "poor little guy" i thought. I felt sorry for it and plucked it out of the web and brushed the cobwebs off it. While i was doing this i was thinking "Wow, this is quite a selfless deed im doing here, going out of my way to help this poor insect, dunno what lilblam was on about". Once i had placed the grasshopper safely into the garden i felt strong sence of satisfaction, i was happy that i helped the grasshopper. Then i realised this deed was not as selfless as i had first thought, in one way i was giving the grasshopper a 2nd chance at life but at the same time i was taking. What i was taking wasn't anything of physical nature (i didn't ask the grasshopper for a reward), what i took was a feeling of happyness (i was pleased with doing a good deed).

Things are starting to become clearer, thanks lilblam.

And at the same time you did something "bad" for the spider when you took and released its lunch. But maybe you didn't think of it.



Actually, I have pondered the same thoughts about "good deeds" some time ago but I didn't get to a conclusion. And now the post about (good deeds/service to self) makes sense.
I'm eagerly waiting for the coming posts.

Originally posted by phayce
Today i when i was outside i noticed a beautiful green grasshopper was caught in a spider web, "poor little guy" i thought. I felt sorry for it and plucked it out of the web and brushed the cobwebs off it. While i was doing this i was thinking "Wow, this is quite a selfless deed im doing here, going out of my way to help this poor insect, dunno what lilblam was on about". Once i had placed the grasshopper safely into the garden i felt strong sence of satisfaction, i was happy that i helped the grasshopper. Then i realised this deed was not as selfless as i had first thought, in one way i was giving the grasshopper a 2nd chance at life but at the same time i was taking. What i was taking wasn't anything of physical nature (i didn't ask the grasshopper for a reward), what i took was a feeling of happyness (i was pleased with doing a good deed).

Things are starting to become clearer, thanks lilblam.

And you took the grasshoper away from the spider of course, who may now die sooner than later. You did it of course for yourself, because in your moment of "despair" of seeing another living creature in "trouble", you failed to see the bigger picture, and you rushed to relieve YOURSELF from your own despair, and possible guilt if you do nothing. That coupled with possibly killing the spider, who may have needed that grasshopper more than we know! Oh and imagine that EVERYONE now takes all the insects from spider webs, because they have an urgent feeling to do a "good" deed like saving a life. Now the spider population is declining. Before you know it, grasshoppers and other insects, whose population was controlled by spiders who are now almost gone, is growing out of proportion. NOW, people are beginning to die, because of swarms and uncontrollable insect infestations.

All is about balance. If balance is not maintained, nature will find a way to RE-balance itself, even if it means to kill anything that is the cause of the imbalance - like humans.

It's the same as seeing somebody slip and almost fall of a cliff, but you rush in, grab their hand, and pull them back up. Great deed, you're a hero! But little did you know that you saved the next Hitler, or the next serial killer, or the father/mother of one. Or rather, you DON'T know, so what from your momentary perspective seems like a good deed, actually did a lot more "bad" than you could possibly imagine, (if we said life is good and death is bad anyway).

If you ask someone, why would you pull up a person who is falling right in front of you, off of a cliff? The "hero" might answer "Because I cannot let another die while I watch, I cannot bare the PAIN and the GUILT of being there and doing nothing". And there ya have it folks, the action was done for the SELF, to remove the pain/guilt, because OBJECTIVELY, saving a life is not GOOD or BAD at all. We do not RUSH to Iraq right now to prevent people from dying do we? We don't fly to AFRICA and try to help people who are dying from AIDS in droves! No, because those people are not HERE. If your mom was dying from aids, or if some man on the street in front of you had his leg shot off, THEN you'd probably do all in your power to help. Why? Because you WITNESS it, and from that, it makes YOU feel really bad, and in order to remove your OWN pain of seeing someone else suffer, and the GUILT that you will later have if you do nothing, you DO something, and tell yourself "I'm a good person, I did a good thing." and you feel happy and satisfied! And now you can live with yourself.

So yes, it is still all about the SELF, because the universe doesn't CARE one way or another whether the living being DIES or not, it's not, only YOU care, because your emotions and sense of pity goes haywire, and in order to appease that, you DO something.

Here's a fun example. When you walk by a brick wall with grafitti all over it, you don't usually jump to erase it do you? No, because you don't feel BAD when you see this. Now imagine that you were programmed to feel emotional turmoil each time you saw grafitti? Imagine you felt GUILTY if you walked by a wall with grafitti and did nothing about it?

Wouldn't you then tell yourself that it is your DUTY to do a GOOD THING and save that wall from this god-awful grafitti? You'd then convince yourself that it is a RIGHTEOUS thing to do, that God will reward you for it, for erasing that grafitti. In reality, you're simply trying to make yourself feel GOOD again, after the grafitti triggered BAD feelings in you.

From that example you can hopefully see exactly what I mean, because that example doesn't trigger anything in your mind, and you can see it CLEARLY without "assumptions" and "prejudices" blocking your view, because grafitti doesn't mean much to you. Now apply the exact same thing to saving a human life, or just doing any "selfless good deed" where your emotions ARE involved, so you cannot think CLEARLY and cannot possibly admit to yourself that you're only doing it for YOURSELF, no, you'll desperately tell yourself that you're a hero, that it's a selfless act, and that it's just GOOD PERIOD, even tho good doesn't exist. I just wanted to make this point as clear as possible, and by applying it to something that doesn't trigger your emotions, like grafitti, you can clearly understand it, and then apply it to things that DO trigger your emotions, and now understand why you do certain things

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by lilblam]

Biblical:

Jesus Christ has to be the most profound religious teacher who ever lived. Starting as a CULT this faith and belief is now a major religion.So biblical speaking maybe not today, maybe not in 3 years..but some time SOON we are going to hit a massive tribulation and hard times unlike anything ever seen. I base this on ONE single thing, although there are a MYRIAD of signs out there today, both in how we are living our lives and the current moral situation. The single thing is? ISRAEL. A state that hasnt existed for thousands of years has now reappeared onto the world stage. This recreation of Israel was predicted by the bible. First God would scatter the Hebrew people and then bring them back together once again in Israel. Without Israel how could all of the predicted things to come happen? Well Israel is here once again, which is very conveneant if this particular nation has 99% involvement in "end times" prophecy/prediction!

Historical:

We are getting richer. This cannot be denied. There are more people alive today with a higher level of basic services (water, power , food etc) and education than ever before. The west has been successful in dramatically boosting the world GDP and living standards.
Problems:

1)Can the world support 6 billion people living like the average American or European does??

2)What happens to a society once it reaches its peak? This is the main point in labelling this section Historical. History teachs well. The Romans. The Greeks.The Egyptians. Highley advanced nations. We borrow our system of law and democracy from some of them. What happened to them? They ended. Due to oppulence and decadence. They reached a peak and then tumbled. it seems mankind reaches a level of wealth and power, gets totally smashed drunk on it and becomes fat and worthless from it.

Maybe things will get better. But isnt the above unavoidable predictable? It will happen sooner or later. You cant deny history. Those who dont learn from it are doomed to repeat it. And the truth is no one really learns!

Biblical:

Jesus Christ has to be the most profound religious teacher who ever lived. Starting as a CULT this faith and belief is now a major religion.So biblical speaking maybe not today, maybe not in 3 years..but some time SOON we are going to hit a massive tribulation and hard times unlike anything ever seen. I base this on ONE single thing, although there are a MYRIAD of signs out there today, both in how we are living our lives and the current moral situation. The single thing is? ISRAEL. A state that hasnt existed for thousands of years has now reappeared onto the world stage. This recreation of Israel was predicted by the bible. First God would scatter the Hebrew people and then bring them back together once again in Israel. Without Israel how could all of the predicted things to come happen? Well Israel is here once again, which is very conveneant if this particular nation has 99% involvement in "end times" prophecy/prediction!

Historical:

We are getting richer. This cannot be denied. There are more people alive today with a higher level of basic services (water, power , food etc) and education than ever before. The west has been successful in dramatically boosting the world GDP and living standards.
Problems:

1)Can the world support 6 billion people living like the average American or European does??

2)What happens to a society once it reaches its peak? This is the main point in labelling this section Historical. History teachs well. The Romans. The Greeks.The Egyptians. Highley advanced nations. We borrow our system of law and democracy from some of them. What happened to them? They ended. Due to oppulence and decadence. They reached a peak and then tumbled. it seems mankind reaches a level of wealth and power, gets totally smashed drunk on it and becomes fat and worthless from it.

Maybe things will get better. But isnt the above unavoidable predictable? It will happen sooner or later. You cant deny history. Those who dont learn from it are doomed to repeat it. And the truth is no one really learns!

By the way...I love you guys ('')

Peace!

I have always loved reading your posts, liblam... even when it's in any kind of disareement with my own... you're still fair.

This is a note on the above post... basically, if you understand everything that is reality, you will also understand that there is no future or past. This predictions forum is , philisophically speaking, a fallacy itself. I'll compile, someday, my 'waves theory' explanations from all over this board and put them into a 'blog. For now, you can search on them. It is definitly in support of this thread, but like liblam said, you have to wake up first.

lib and I apparently have the same goals. Lib is using the 'wake-up' approach, and very effectivly indeed... I've been using the refamiliarization approach. In a sense, we really are doing the exact same thing.

Also, keep careful eyes on posts by other people on this board... you will notice (after you have 'awaken', of course...) alot of other people come to their senses and realize the true scope of true reality. Alot of others are trying to 'wake' the masses as well, although they don't realize that is the goal. They haven't fully awaken themselves, yet.

Thanks, lib, for putting this together in such a nice thread! Very well communicated, and soothing to read... it's really not the harsh reality that some make it out to be. I realize that their may be consequences for waking some people, but that is to be expected. Some simply wake up too fast, and it's all really hard to take in and they either go back to sleep, or 'release themselves' in various ways, the most common being death .

The ones who are waking up need to help others take it in slowly to avoid uneccisary things like this, although death is only part of the loop of your life. When you finally wake up, you will not be displeased with anything, and everything that has ever upset you in the past will now make you happy! Once you come to this full realization, you will see why things happen the way they do.

And we still have choices.... not to argue with liblam at all... we really are talking about the same thing. This area of nothing that we exist in is beautiful. We are so small and minute (looking down on ourselves from our current human perspective) that we have MANY choices to make. When you get a propogation of as many waves as exists in our section of this realm you get what appears to be chaos. The waves start to form memory cells, where the waves are somehow in perfect harmony and stay together. (these are what could be referred to as the 'strings' from the popular theory). There are so many of these energies, that is why we exist... and 'above' our existence the waves are not as broken up. We have some dimensional leeway, because the waves that make us up can still hold form to a certain degree. This is what the sleeping are beeing manipulated by. They are conditioned to stay within a certain dimensional frame and don't take advantage of their ability to move freely.

To paint what I'm talking about here, the 'dimensional movement' that we have is what accounts for things like miraculous healing, and levitation, and even knowledge. Gnostics take advantage of their dimensional leeway to gain knowledge. I, myself, have gone to a dimensional point where time didn't matter at all... and I woke up a bit too fast, and certain circumstances persued and I went completely back to sleep again, but with one eye open.

We all have this leeway.... you just have to wake up and take advantage of it, in whatever way is best for you.

/ramble off

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by Earthscum]

Eeeee! I didn't think of the poor spider!

Lets hope the grasshopper doesn't give birth to a Hitler grasshopper

(Continuing from Post #1 on the previous page)

In my last post I mentioned certain things that I said I'll write about later. Here's the quote:

"More to follow soon, where I'll discuss the nature of our universe, and will logically demonstrate the following points:

1) Not only do aliens exist, but they are AWARE of our planet and have always been aware of it. BY saying this, I am saying, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for it to be any other way, and if this wasn't true, it would create a contradiction which by its very nature cannot exist, and does NOT exist. Therefore, that is true, and I will demonstrate soon, as it's 1:33 am now.

2) That time doesn't exist, and this leads into understanding of our universe at a fundemental level, which also leads into #1 above. This means that, before you can understand #1, you must first understand this #2, which I'll explain soon - and when you understand, you will SEE beyond a shadow of a SINGLE DOUBT, that this is indeed true, and CANNOT POSSIBLY be any other way, which means - it's NOT! Let your ego rest for now, I haven't said anything yet, I'm only preparing this, and will post it tomorrow. I also realise that some of you may already UNDERSTAND it, but considering that it is only a precious FEW, I am offering it to ALL who wish to read it."

So I'll start with #2, and we'll work our way to #1 (I know, I'm a backwards person, what can I say?).

Once again, as a cautionary note, please tell your ego, your assumptions and beliefs, and your constantly running programs to go away for the next few minutes, because otherwise this will go in one ear and out the other, and you're wasting your time!

Having said that...

Law #1: You cannot have something come out of nothing.

If law #1 is true, then this means the universe was never created out of nothing. In fact, this means that SOMETHING had to ALWAYS exist, in order for ANYTHING to EVER exist. If there was ever a "time" when absolutely NOTHING existed, then NOTHING would continue to forever exist. Even those who believe that God created everything, say that GOD himself is eternal. Why? Because even THEY realise that God couldn't come out of NOTHING. Onto the next law then.

Law #2: Infinity can never be reached, because if it was, it would no longer be INFINITY. Infinity has no end, it has no termination, it HAS no limit, and therefore, one can never get through infinity, otherwise it is not infinity at all, it is FINITY! (lol is that even a word?).

Laws 1 and 2 cannot be violated. If you have any doubts about this, please think carefully about it, use your mathematical side of the brain, use your logic. Mathematics is the universal language! When you are absolutely SURE you understand laws 1 and 2, keep reading

Now if you think carefully enough, you will notice that in order for time to exist, we would be violating either law #1 or law #2. However, we CANNOT violate them, and therefore, if TIME or anything else has to violate ANY of the 2 aforementioned laws in order to exist, it CANNOT and does NOT exist. Simple, right? Now what part of time violates these laws? Once again, if you think carefully enough about what time is and what are the requirements for it to exist, you can easily see the answer. In fact, I encourage anyone reading this to STOP and try to figure this out yourselves, because you'll feel much better if you figure this out yourself than if you read it somewhere! Have fun! For those who just wish to read it, keep going.


Let's say time exists. If you violate law #1, and say that you can have something out of nothing, then time can certainly exist. That is because, EVERYTHING that exists then has a beginning, and this means that there was a FINITE amount of time that passed between NOW and the BEGINNING. Yup everything is just fine. However, the problem is, you CANNOT have a beginning of EVERYTHING, because you can NOT have something out of NOTHING, and the beginning of EVERYTHING means, there was NOTHING before it, and that CANNOT BE and is FALSE. Therefore, we cannot violate law #1, so TIME can only hope to violate law #2 or it's going to strike out. Yes time only gets 2 strikes, sorry Baseball fans!

Let's say time decided to not violate law #1. Well, then time, in order to exist, would HAVE to violate law #2, it's time's last hope! If we do NOT violate law #1, then we acknowledge the fact that there was no beginning, that something ALWAYS existed. Well then, if there WAS no beginning, this means that infinity had already passed before we could exist in our current lifetimes. If infinity had NOT yet passed, then there certainly WAS a beginning! Remember, we didn't START where we currently are now and began going backwards, no, we ARRIVED at this point! In order to ARRIVE at this point, wherever it may be, we HAD to pass infinity, since there was no beginning. The problem is, if we pass infinity, we violate law #2, and in fact, this means that it's no longer infinity. The problem is, if there is no beginning, then YES it IS infinity, and by PASSING it, we create a contradiction, which we cannot do.

I tried my best explaining it and making it as CLEAR as possible. However, it is still upto the reader to UNDERSTAND it and this means put in mental effort. If you have assumptions, beliefs, prejudices, and emotions getting in the way here, then you probably won't understand it, so I suggest you open your mind before you read it. If you failed to do so at first, open it now, and read it again! I'm reasonably sure that this particular logical assertion won't get anyone's EGO involved, so I'm not worried about that aspect at the moment, since the existance of "time" (or lack thereof) is not personal, at least to most people.

Now that we all (right?) understand that the existance of time creates a contradiction, or rather, it violates either Law #1 or Law #2, we can positively assert that TIME, as humans experience it, is an illusion: it does NOT exist.

Having said that...

Let's talk about "aliens", and see that they not only exist, but they are perfectly aware of our existance. Let's logically CONCLUDE this theory anyway, same as we did with TIME. If anybody has problems with using logic, which is the basis of mathematics, which is the universal language, then this entire THREAD is truly not designed for you! I put "aliens" in quotes for a reason too, which I'll mention soon.

We have determined a few things here. First, we now know that all of existance did NOT have a beginning. Also, we determined that linear time does not exist, as otherwise we would either have to have a beginning, or we would have to breach infinity in order to get where we are now, which we cannot do. So what CAN we conclude from this? Well, we CAN conclude that because we have no beginning and no linear time, everything that could ever possibly happen, already happened, is happening, and will happen - SIMULTANEOUSLY. Why simultaneously? Because we're trying to escape the "linear" concept of time, as that's a contradiction in and of itself, as was previously determined. So how can everything exist simultaneously? The same way all the frames on a video tape exist simultaneously, and the only way to create the illusion of "time" on the video tape is to play it, and as you play it in your VCR, you view each frame sequentially at a fast pace - and THAT creates the illusion of time. You already KNOW that all the frames exist at the same time, so the ONLY thing that is changing is your AWARENESS. Here's why I say this. You have a choice: You can either lay out the entire video tape in front of you and simply stare at ALL of the frames at the same time, and see them ALL (pretend the tape isn't very long). OR you can look at ONE FRAME AT A TIME in a fast-paced sequential order, as you do when you press "PLAY" on your VCR. It so happens that this is what we're doing in our current human lives, losely speaking. The only difference is, a Video Casette Tape has a BEGINNING and an END, but reality has no such things.

So we have here an INFINITY of things, all happening AT ONCE - and only your awareness changes as you either choose to view a tiny little piece at a time, or bigger chunks at a time, or even the entire thing at once (more on that later)! So what does all this have to do with ALIENS anyway? Let's talk about CHANCE here for a second. What are the CHANCES that aliens will somehow discover our planet, if they have 1 million years to do this? Well, we don't know, but considering the size of the universe and the apparent "scarcity" of intelligent living beings on it (or at least as far as humans can tell), probably slim chances. Now instead of a million, give aliens an INFINITY of time to do this.. what are their chances now? This is where we come to Law #3:


Law #3: Given eternity or infinity, anything that can EVER POSSIBLY happen has a 100% chance of happening, and therefore DOES happen.

Ah, you see, you cannot break that law either! Not because it's written in a lawbook, because it is a natural law of creation, just as the previous 2 laws I mentioned. It's not a RULE that you can break, it is a LAW, and like ALL laws of creation, it would create a CONTRADICTION if one tried to break it; and a contradiction, by its very definition and nature, CANNOT and DOES NOT exist. And we KNOW by now that aliens DID have infinity of "time" to FIND OUR PLANET, because the entire INFINITY of creation exists simultaneously, so there was NEVER A MOMENT when our planet was NOT well-known and well-documented by an advanced alien civilization, because there are no "moments" as we think of moments to begin with! Oh, and as far as aliens existing, since all things that can ever possibly happen DO happen, and existance of all kinds of intelligent beings is certainly a possibility, then they DO exist. Every possible imaginable thing that can EVER possibly exist, already does - no exceptions, because of law #1, #2, and #3! I know what you're thinking, "What the hell are you doing to my LINEAR MIND, Mike?". This is why I said, open your mind. You CAN understand this, and you CAN KNOW THIS, but only IF you put in the EFFORT to understand. If you do not understand, don't despair, it takes "time" to remove the brainwashing we've all experienced since childhood, which is what mainly blocks our ability to process this information. Why? Because we've experienced LINEAR TIME, LINEAR LIVES, LINEAR EXISTANCE since our births, and because of that, it is extremely DIFFICULT to fathom a NON-LINEAR UNIVERSE, a NON-LINEAR REALITY, in which we reside. Perhaps it is time that we TRIED, because it is truly not as hard as it seems, if only your mind is OPEN and without assumption/beliefs - if you are not ready to lose your beliefs just yet, that is fine, we all learn when we're ready, and ONLY when we're ready.

So let's go back to "aliens". Why oh why do I put this word in "quotes"? What do we think of when we normally hear the word "alien" (besides immigrants)? We think of an intelligent life form, which is not of Earth. Then I could be picky and say, how do you know HUMANS are of Earth, we do not know of our origins yet, we only have theories which are shaky at best! In fact, for all you know, there is a race of beings that lived on this planet "longer" than we did, and therefore WE are the aliens to them - perhaps they exist subterreneally, or at some level of frequency that we cannot perceive yet? But these would be mere speculations, at least from your perspective, and although logically possible, we simply do not know, yet. However, there is something we DO know, again, JUST BY USING OUR MINDS, as we have previously. We didn't need GOD or ALIENS to show up and tell us time doesn't exist, our minds is all we needed. In fact, that is all we EVER need for absolutely anything (more on that later). But here is why I put "aliens" in "quotes".

If time does not exist, then neither does space. Or more specifically, if an ENTITY is NOT bound/restricted by time (as we humans currently ARE), if that entity is ABOVE the illusion, then this entity, by default, is NOT restricted/bound by space (as we also currently are, obviously). That one is rather simple. The travel through space, which we measure by SPEED, is defined as follows: DISTANCE / TIME. You all should by now know what happens when you try to divide by "0" (zero) - your calculator tells you to go to hell. Well, in reality, division by ZERO equals INFINITY, but since infinity is NOT a number, it is only a theoretical quantity - which means it does NOT exist except in THEORY, it can never be STATED as a VALUE, so your computer or your calculator don't know what to do when confronted with a question that has a THEORETICAL ANSWER, and no DEFINITE NUMERICAL ANSWER. But keep in mind that division by ZERO yields INFINITY, because there are INFINITY of ZEROS in absolutely ANY number! Now let's go back to SPEED.

We know SPEED is equal to DISTANCE / TIME. So, if you are not bound by time, and time doesn't exist for you, then TIME can be stated as ZERO. Any DISTANCE over ZERO is INFINITY, so SPEED = INFINITY. When your SPEED is infinite, you can be absolutely anywhere, INSTANTLY. Hence, space ceases to exist: you no longer have such a thing as "flying" somewhere, as you do not have MOTION - by the time you decide you want to go somewhere, you're already there. In fact, since you're not bound by time, you are EVERYWHERE at the same time. How? Because you can do things in ZERO time, which means that you can spend INFINITY of time doing absolutely EVERYTHING you want to do with INFINITE speed, with 0 time passing relative everything else (well from the perspective of creatures like humans, who think time exists in the first place anyway). Another one of those non-linear brain crunchers, but truly not so hard to grasp if you think about it carefully enough. So what am I getting at? Let's put it all together shall we?

A creature can take 0 time to go EVERYWHERE at once, in an infinite reality that consists of INFINITY OF THINGS happening all at the same "time". Now, don't think of them as HAPPENING all at once, think of them as just BEING, just EXISTING.. they do not HAPPEN until you choose to OBSERVE them, until you FOCUS YOUR AWARENESS on them. It is your AWARENESS that defines what HAPPENS! So given all of the above, the only possible conclusion is, the Earth has ALWAYS been known, humans have ALWAYS been seen and observed, and there is no "past" or "future" for those beings, all is just the infinite NOW.

Then some might ask, "If this is true, how come the aliens did not show up and establish official contact with our civilization?". I might ask you the same thing: How come you didn't show up in the middle of a rainforest, and declare your existance to all the squirrels? How come? No, I'm not kidding, why would you assume this to be "different"? Remember, one's experiences are defined by one's level of awareness, and one's level of awareness is defined by one's KNOWLEDGE, and KNOWLEDGE is all there is! If 2 entities have a really distinguished GAP in knowledge, then the one with higher knowledge will usually not waste its time trying to establish "relationships" with those of distinguishingly lower knowledge, because of the severe GAP in understanding of REALITY between the 2 entities. Humans and squirrels have a significantly different understanding of reality, so there's not much to TALK ABOUT with a squirrel, at least not for you, right? And a squrrel doesn't talk with a FLOWER or a TREE does it? Do you see the progression (more on THAT later)?

Thank you for baring with me through yet another lengthy post in a continuing series, I hope you've learned as much reading this as I've learned just by writing it and putting my understandings into WORDS (which are now hopefully your understandings too, and before you know it, you find yourself trying to explain it to someone else, and so on!), which always help reinforce those same understandings
-------------------------------------------------



In the NEXT "giant post", I will discuss the different levels of awareness, WHAT they are, where does CONSCIOUSNESS play into this whole thing, what is the meaning of LIFE (uh oh, I sense programs being triggered by that phrase! ), what is the PURPOSE of life/existance, and why does ANYTHING exist at all! I'll also discuss what SORTS of beings occupy the universe (remember, I will only use LOGIC throughout all this, not hypothetical stuff, no assumptions!), what kinds of DUALITIES exist in reality and why, and the importance of BALANCE in all aspects of reality and our lives. In addition to all that, I'll mention the dynamics being played out on our world at this time, and how it all ties into the dualities that exist. Finally, I'll mention the man behind the curtain, why the curtain exists, and how THAT connects to all the rest that I've said by now (man behind the curtain is reference to Wizard of Oz btw). In addition, probably the most important thing: FREE WILL and CHOICE, and just how THAT fits into this crazy web!

That is going to get progressively harder to understand, but I'm confident that with enough EFFORT, anyone who reads this (unless you're a squirrel) can understand this, and KNOW this to be true 100%. Not by faith, not by belief, not by assumption, not by wishful thinking, not by anticipation, and not by hollow memorization. But truly, really, logically, without a doube UNDERSTAND IT, and with that UNDERSTANDING or more accurately CONCEPTION, KNOWLEDGE will manifest, ABSOLUTELY KNOWLEDGE and ASSURANCE of these things, once and for all. And KNOWLEDGE is all substance, by acruiring knowledge, you raise your Frequency Resonance Vibration (more on THAT later!), and this raises your awareness, which will allow you to see that which you've never seen before, or thought could possibly even exist, right in front of your eyes. But PATIENCE is truly a virtue, and without it, not much progress will be made. Knowledge needs to be obtained incrementally, and as all the necessary prerequisite lessons are learned, we move on. But more on that later, because it's 3:33AM now and my eyes feel as if they're melting off my face... must.. sleep.

-Mike

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by lilblam]

Confusion...setting...in....

Thanks again, lilblam. I am still struggling with these concepts, and have some questions...

1 - "Law #1: You cannot have something come out of nothing". Is this proven? What about matter being created from energy? (Not trying to discredit, just trying to understand...) Um, second thoughts, scrap that; energy would be "something". Anything to add...?

2 - I just know I'm going to go crazy asking this question but here goes:
As far as I understand your reasoning, all things that can ever possibly happen DO happen. So all over space/time there are other 'me's doing everything that could ever possibly be done...? Also, (given infinity) is there actually such a thing as 'impossible'?

3 - If an entity is not restricted by time, 'he' can travel instantly and take as "long" as 'he' likes to do something in a fraction of a second, or instantly. BUT can 'he' travel back and forth in time, as opposed to just "pausing" time? If so, then in effect 'he' can exist in two places at once...? Or even an infinite number of places at once...

4 - Isn't it inaccurate to say that if travel is instantaneous then space "ceases to exist"? Surely, space does still exist but travel is just easier...?

5 - "Humans and squirrels have a significantly different understanding of reality, so there's not much to TALK ABOUT with a squirrel, at least not for you" Isn't it 'impossible' for humans to communicate with squirrels? Do squirrels even have the ability to communicate?

One last thing: You've come to these conclusions just by logic alone? What if your logic (or logic in general) is flawed? What if, for example, it IS possible to create something from nothing? If we can't easily conceive of non-linear time, perhaps there are other deeper things we don't understand, such as how it is possible to create something out of nothing...

Apologies if this makes NO sense or it has been answered already...

Originally posted by Al Vereco
Confusion...setting...in....

Thanks again, lilblam. I am still struggling with these concepts, and have some questions...

1 - "Law #1: You cannot have something come out of nothing". Is this proven? What about matter being created from energy? (Not trying to discredit, just trying to understand...) Um, second thoughts, scrap that; energy would be "something". Anything to add...?

I think u got that one Energy is indeed something! When I speak of nothing, I'm talking about absolutely nothing Oh and, there is no such thing as proof, only knowledge! If you cannot conceptualize this and understand it, then surely it is only "proven" to those who can, right? As with anything else, if you don't "get" the proof, then it is not PROOF to you! Or rather, if you GET it but refuse to accept it due to assumptions/beliefs and so forth, then surely it won't be proof to you. So this is why I say there is no such thing as proof, some things constitute proof to some people, while they mean nothing to others... it's all about KNOWLEDGE and our ability to accumulate it and learn.

2 - I just know I'm going to go crazy asking this question but here goes:
As far as I understand your reasoning, all things that can ever possibly happen DO happen. So all over space/time there are other 'me's doing everything that could ever possibly be done...? Also, (given infinity) is there actually such a thing as 'impossible'?

Yup, there are an infinite number of YOU's doing every possible thing you can imagine and more. They all exist simultaneously on THIS planet, and every other possible planet that you could ever possibly inhabit having the exact same body etc. All these realities exist, yet you're only aware of ONE of them, the one you presently experience, due to your linear mind, and 3rd density perception. Oh and, yes there is impossible, as for example creating a contradiction that would exist in the same reality. So for example, if you EXIST in one possible reality, you cannot "NOT EXIST" in that same reality, at the same time. You either EXIST there, or you don't! As far as LIMITS to what is possible, there are no limits.

3 - If an entity is not restricted by time, 'he' can travel instantly and take as "long" as 'he' likes to do something in a fraction of a second, or instantly. BUT can 'he' travel back and forth in time, as opposed to just "pausing" time? If so, then in effect 'he' can exist in two places at once...? Or even an infinite number of places at once...

But he, and you, and everything else, already does exist in "infinity of places at the same time". And yes, from OUR perspective of linear time, he can easily manipulate space-time and well, time itself to go as far as he wishes backwards, or forwards. However, the past and the future are both VARIABLE, as there are many different possibilities that could've led to what you currently call as the PRESENT, and your MEMORIES are only a record of ONE of those possibilities, when in reality, they ALL manifested and happened. At the same time, there are an infinite amount of possible FUTURES, depending on the CHOICES. So for someone to travel "back and forth" through time, is not accurate, because time doesn't exist. However, they travel through REALITIES, so by selecting a POSSIBLE FUTURE REALITY, they can travel to it. By selectinv a POSSIBLE PAST REALITY, they can travel to it. See what I mean? We don't have just ONE past, ONE future, ONE present. All of these things are selective and variable, and our PERCEPTION allowed us to SEE only ONE possibility, when in reality ALL possibilities EXIST, and from a timeless perspective, you are aware of them ALL, and therefore, must select the proper energy PATTERN that matches the precise REALITY that you wish to manifest yourself in. I hope this makes sense.

4 - Isn't it inaccurate to say that if travel is instantaneous then space "ceases to exist"? Surely, space does still exist but travel is just easier...?

You could say that, sure. However, the word "travel" doesn't exist in relation to SPACE anymore, because you can be absolutely ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, SIMULTANEOUSLY. Space is no longer SPACE as we know it, especially if you view reality with a 4th dimention included. We view reality only in 3 dimentions. Each dimention has an infinity of previous dimentions in it. For example, a 3 dimentional cube has an infinity of 2-dimentional SQUARES inside, because squares have no height, their height it 0, and there are infinity of 0's in absolutely ANY number. So, if you add a 4th dimention, we can have an INFINITE number of our universes be located all in the same "place". Fun huh?

You see, humans experience this "unidimentionality" where they think SPACE, or reality anyway, is this ONE possible linear existance. In reality, all of the limitless potential possibilities are manifested simultaneous on different "realities", and TIME is not even a CONCEPT for certain beings. When THAT is true, SPACE is also not a CONCEPT for them, they have no conception of space as you do. Imagine LOOKING somewhere and seeing everything in that direction at the same time, and being able to see as far as INFINITY miles. Now, also imagine, being able to see objects from ALL directions at once, inside and out, and seeing around TURNS as if they were a straight pathway. Also, imagine seeing in all 360 degrees, or rather, all directions at the same time, all around you, and witnessing the infinity of realities that exist simultaneously for a DISTANCE of, INFINITY. If you could imagine this, which you cannot but can try, you would get a glimpse of what the next level of awareness is like, where TIME and SPACE no longer exist, TRAVEL does not really exist either, it's only a shifting of REALITIES. The difference between OUR planet and some OTHER planet is just energy patterns, just reality. If attuned, you can switch back and forth between realities in an instant, no travel necessary.

In fact, considering our planet has an infinity of VERSIONS for it, where every possibility exists, this adds more complexity to precisely WHICH potential EARTH you'd want to experience and "visit". Anyways more on that stuff later.. the point is, there truly IS no space when there is no time, it completely and utterly ceases to exist, especially when other dimentions are added in.

5 - "Humans and squirrels have a significantly different understanding of reality, so there's not much to TALK ABOUT with a squirrel, at least not for you" Isn't it 'impossible' for humans to communicate with squirrels? Do squirrels even have the ability to communicate?

All animals communicate on their level! This level is NOT human, so it's not "Hey how are you, nice weather". It's what you already know, and some that you do not know. For example mating calls is a communication. Birds chirp to protect their territories. Packs of wolves have certain howls, growls, and barks to indicate different things to each other, so they can work together easier to locate prey and survive - communication exists and is essential. However, once again, the level of communication, and the way it is done, is so drastically different from humans, that we do not waste our TIME learning how to speak dog, we rather, train them to do as we say in our language. Animals also communicate with body language, and all kinds of ways, including the possibility of telepathy - something we don't even have the instruments to measure and find out yet! So don't confuse communicate with "speak English"

One last thing: You've come to these conclusions just by logic alone? What if your logic (or logic in general) is flawed? What if, for example, it IS possible to create something from nothing? If we can't easily conceive of non-linear time, perhaps there are other deeper things we don't understand, such as how it is possible to create something out of nothing...

But that's the problem, there is no such thing as "nothing", NOTHING doesn't exist. Everything is SOMETHING, even SPACE, just a pure empty vaccum, is SOMETHING (even if it's an illusion)! So if nothing existed, then SOMETHING would not exist. And the other way around, since something exists, NOTHING cannot exist!

Apologies if this makes NO sense or it has been answered already...

It hasn't been in this post, and no worries, we're all learning! Also, considering there is no time, this might lead you to another interesting conclusion which I'll mention, but it's for you to think about. When there is no time, there is no creation. Anything that you think is "new" already WAS, and permanently and forever EXISTED before you "created" it. If there is no creation, of ANYTHING, since everything always simply IS, then this doesn't go well for "Creator God", he is suddenly out of work! But I won't stress this point right now, just think about it and see what u make of it

-Mike

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by lilblam]

Reading all this information and understanding it tends to shatter my mirror and reality. I can see how conditioned I have been as I grew up to my present awareness. Somehow, I believe that this type of awareness being discussed in this thread is what the Secret Societies don't want the regular massess to know and understand.

About aliens. I understand that they are probably not on our level of awareness. The analogy of the squirrel and human is good. I have theorized with myself and have shared it with some of my posts that the alien intelligence does communicate with us already, only for those who are aware. I have been given glimpses of this with my present awarenss.

Very good information and I enjoyed reading thus far.

Originally posted by IMMORTAL
Reading all this information and understanding it tends to shatter my mirror and reality. I can see how conditioned I have been as I grew up to my present awareness. Somehow, I believe that this type of awareness being discussed in this thread is what the Secret Societies don't want the regular massess to know and understand.

About aliens. I understand that they are probably not on our level of awareness. The analogy of the squirrel and human is good. I have theorized with myself and have shared it with some of my posts that the alien intelligence does communicate with us already, only for those who are aware. I have been given glimpses of this with my present awarenss.

Very good information and I enjoyed reading thus far.

There are of course an infinite number of beings just like us, on our level of awareness, yet with MUCH higher technology (and lower too), who may be able to get here as well. The reason for lack of formal announcement about their presence and existance to the human race is not limited by the "knowledge gap". This doesn't mean they will NOT announce themselves when it fits into their "plans" to do so. The point I was trying to make here is that they not only exist, but they are perfectly aware of us. The choice to remain hidden from us is multifaceted, and depends on which "race of beings" you ask!

For example, Service to Others beings respect our free will, and that is why they refrain from contact from most humans anyway, who aren't ready and have no desire for such contact yet. Service to SELF beings, on the other hand, just as we humans are, will try to see how that contact will benefit THEM. If they are more powerful, then they may wish to control us, and if covert control works better, so be it. Control not necessarily just for the "sake of control", there are many reasons for such, but I won't get into these things now. Remember, humans are not aware of their own origins yet. For all you know, we're all just a big lab experiment by higher level beings, just as we experiment on lab rats here. They may already completely control us, our culture, our society, and may do as they wish with us, without us even knowing. They may even be behind all our religions and so forth, and many many other facets of our lives, including our DNA etc. But this for another time, I just wanted to mention the fact that there are indeed many possibilities for what is going on in our reality, and the more we learn/understand about ourselves, the more we begin to understand the reality in which we reside, and the more we begin to SEE that which we've not seen before, because with knowledge one grows in awareness, and with greater awareness, one is able to access even more knowledge.

If you want to know WHY someone would want to "own" or "control" or "manipulate" us, just ask WHY people do this to EACH OTHER, and to animals? If you can figure out why PEOPLE do this, what is the reason for this "hunger for power" that humans have, then you'll know why someone would do this to us! Service to Self is what it is.

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Shugo
Oh no... I just realize it, well majority of your posts do, that's all. I'm not trying to defend anything at this moment.

Because majority of my time is spent thinking about things, which are in one way or another related to religion, even if not directly

That is the most sense you've ever made to me.
I also think this is the one time that I'm not fully disagreeing with you.

Originally posted by lilblam

The choice to remain hidden from us is multifaceted, and depends on which "race of beings" you ask!

So we all in this version live in a version where "aliens" have chosed to remain hidden from the public?
And at the same time there are other versions of our world where they are not hidden from the public?

Oh and about that "0.01%" of actions that are not service to self. Does service to others apply only if help is given only when asked for it?
And as I see it that help would have to be given with no self promoting emotions at all, to NOT be a service to self action.

Liblam:

i wish to salut you for your exelent work of analizys and information.
this is very good and usefull to all the kind of people to read.
thx for your enfort and time in this mate.

excellent post !!

but , a few things to bring up

Let's talk about CHANCE here for a second. What are the CHANCES that aliens will somehow discover our planet, if they have 1 million years to do this? Well, we don't know, but considering the size of the universe and the apparent "scarcity" of intelligent living beings on it (or at least as far as humans can tell), probably slim chances. Now instead of a million, give aliens an INFINITY of time to do this.. what are their chances now? This is where we come to Law #3:

the earth has not been around for an infinate amount of time and neither has our solar system or even our galaxy , that reduces the fact that they had infinate amount of time to find us , also just because the universe is infinate and time is infinate it does not mean that the amount of alien life is infinate and the time they have to find us is infinate.

life comes and goes across our planet , maybe its the same across our universe , , maybe aliens have been our way before - but there is a possibility it was before we where around and therefore they are unaware of us.

if your on about the infinity of things that happen - then why just stop at the infinity of aliens knowing about us - why not continue to the possibility that aliens are actually muppets on tv who have an agenda to eat spiders - since its infinate and everything that can happen already has then i guess those little things on tv are actually aliens who eat spiders

you get my point ?

quote:
One last thing: You've come to these conclusions just by logic alone? What if your logic (or logic in general) is flawed? What if, for example, it IS possible to create something from nothing? If we can't easily conceive of non-linear time, perhaps there are other deeper things we don't understand, such as how it is possible to create something out of nothing...

But that's the problem, there is no such thing as "nothing", NOTHING doesn't exist. Everything is SOMETHING, even SPACE, just a pure empty vaccum, is SOMETHING (even if it's an illusion)! So if nothing existed, then SOMETHING would not exist. And the other way around, since something exists, NOTHING cannot exist!

I think you misunderstood my question here, lilblam. I wasn't particularly asking about "something out of nothing". I was suggesting that perhaps our general idea of logic might be flawed, or at least not as 'solid' as we might think. Our logic is based on how things in our universe work, but who's to say that logic always works the same way in other universes or levels of existence?

Originally posted by acidhead
excellent post !!

but , a few things to bring up

Let's talk about CHANCE here for a second. What are the CHANCES that aliens will somehow discover our planet, if they have 1 million years to do this? Well, we don't know, but considering the size of the universe and the apparent "scarcity" of intelligent living beings on it (or at least as far as humans can tell), probably slim chances. Now instead of a million, give aliens an INFINITY of time to do this.. what are their chances now? This is where we come to Law #3:

the earth has not been around for an infinate amount of time and neither has our solar system or even our galaxy , that reduces the fact that they had infinate amount of time to find us , also just because the universe is infinate and time is infinate it does not mean that the amount of alien life is infinate and the time they have to find us is infinate.

That's the thing I was trying to convey.. even though our planet/galaxy/universe have a LIMITED amount of time since their "creation" from a linear time perspective, the existance is eternal from a non-linear perspective, a perspective where time doesn't exist.

Here is an example: let's say you have a "time machine". Remember the time when you were 12 years old? This entire "time" only lasted 1 year, not more, from your linear time perspective. BUT, with a TIME machine, you can always go back and experience that time again and again.. so in reality, what seemed to have existed only for 1 whole year, you could've experienced it for 50 years or something, because you chose to go back in time 50 times to see yourself as 12 yrs of age. So even though the entire existance was only 1 year, you had far more than just 1 year to experience the same thing.
And since time doesn't exist, then a time machine is nothing more than a machine that places you in an alternate reality, because the only difference between events in your past and possible events in the future are different possible "realities". Your possible past vs possible present vs possible future, are all simultaneous, but they are experienced by you in a linear fashion, and are nothing but changes in REALITY itself. And if you are able to travel from one possible reality to another (which we all do anyway, just by being alive), but expand on that concept where our current human restrictions of space-time do not apply, you are then able to experience anything you want, for as long as you want, even if its entire existance may seem "short" from a linear perspective. I hope this makes sense.

We are still located in an INFINITE reality, it is simply no LINEAR that is all. And the thing I am trying to stress is, no one needs to "find" our planet, because we were never LOST to begin with. The entire existance of our planet has been known since its beginning (well there are many possible ways this planet could've been born, and they are all known). And will be known till the destruction/end of this planet, and there are also many possibilities as to how THAT can happen, and EACH of those possibilities exist and some intelligence/consciousness (call it aliens or anything else you wish) is AWARE of each and every one.

You say that just because the universe is infinite and time is infinite, doesn't mean the amount of alien life is infinite and the time they have to find us is infinite. So you are basically asking, why couldn't there be a LIMIT to how much alien life can possibly exist, in such conditions as above? Well, because of free will.. aka choice. This is the factor that "animates" the universe in a sense, and is not just a property of physical beings like us. And with this choice, which is rooted in consciousness, ALL things spring forth. But because time doesn't exist, they do not "spring forth" as in they are CREATED and then exist, but rather, they all ALWAYS existed and always will exist.

The very idea of having no time says a LOT just by itself, much more than is instantly recognizable by us. If you carefully think what this REALLY MEANS, the idea that time doesn't exist, it seems to include many other things within itself. You are a conscious entity, which has a certain amount of awareness and knowledge, and you are able to GROW and CHANGE your awareness with new knowledge, and are able to MAKE CHOICES based on that new knowledge, etc. You have free will. If consciousness didn't exist, if you had no being of your own, you wouldn't be talking to me right now, because the only thing that would exist is inanimate matter. But because you are able to conceptualize what I'm saying, or conceptualize ANYTHING for that matter, signifies a consciousness. And with consciousness anything and everything is POTENTIALLY possible, and given a potential possibility AND an infinity of TIME, EVERYTHING manifests!

But this is not all... equate the universe to the internet, and humans to individual computers linked to the internet. Now imagine if your computer had infinite bandwidth (download/upload speed) and INFINITE hard drive space. What would result? Your computer then could have the entire internet within itself! However, the USER sitting at the computer would NOT be aware that the computer has the entire internet, but could potentially access any part of this entire internet if he knows how. The computer is your mind (the subconscience part), and it has absolutely ALL the knowledge of the universe, because it is PART of the universe, and by being PART of the universe, it is connected to every OTHER part of the universe, because no parts are SEPARATE from the WHOLE. So, your mind literally possesses all the knowledge of everything that exists, it literally, within itself, contains the UNIVERSE in which it RESIDES! What a linear-brain twister huh? We're not talking about a PHYSICAL connection, and because time-space are illusory, consciousness is not BOUND by such, and therefore is intimitely linked to every OTHER consciousness, because there is not much SEPARATING any consciousness from any other.. TIME AND SPACE do not EXIST!

Now consider this for a moment! Your conscious knowledge, is the user, and your subconscience is that UPLINK to everything else that exists, that timeless eternal part of you, which most would know as a "soul", and which is not physical at all, but rather is your consciousness. Your consciousness is linked through your physical brain to your body, and if you are able to access your subconscience better (hypnosis is one technique, but there are infinite ways to do it without trance), you can learn how to access the infinite knowledge of absolutely EVERYTHING that exists.

Crazy concept to get through your mind, but the more you think about it, the more you will see the logic/truth here... it's just not easy to grasp on our level, so I hope you spend the time carefully thinking about it with an open mind. There is no DIVINITY, as such is a human concept used in human religions for the purposes of control, because humans are all service to self, which is based on HIERARCHIES, and religion is one of the biggest hierarchies (starting from GOD ALMIGHTY and going down from there) that exists, which binds your body and mind in control, illusion, manipulation, and ignorance. This is simply stating of objective facts, not my way of "chastising" religion or anything else. STS beings do STS things, it's that simple. They create icons of WORSHIP and so forth, they fight wars over control and over gaining more followers for their worshipped icons. This is an intricate hierarchy tree designed to please those at the top and control those at the bottom, using many many techniques.

But enough on that for now.

life comes and goes across our planet , maybe its the same across our universe , , maybe aliens have been our way before - but there is a possibility it was before we where around and therefore they are unaware of us.

From OUR perspective it was before. From another perspective it would be during. From yet another, it would be after. So who is to say "when" an alien race exists, given not only the relativity of time from our linear perspective, but the fact that time doesn't even EXIST, and is nothing but a mere illusion? Therefore, the existance of absolutely EVERYTHING is DURING our existance. Every single second of your life exists simultaneously with every single second of EVERYTHING that exists (though there are no actual "seconds" of existance per se, I just used that to help us think about the concept).

For example, one reality might have a "flow of time" that seems 100 times faster than ours, so 1 year in our reality is 100 years in that other reality. Or 1 year in our reality is 1 trillion years in another reality. Now remember, I'm not talking about aliens who are just like WE are, where their awareness is low and ignorance high. I'm talking about TIMELESS beings, that are not bound by the same restrictions that we are.

if your on about the infinity of things that happen - then why just stop at the infinity of aliens knowing about us - why not continue to the possibility that aliens are actually muppets on tv who have an agenda to eat spiders - since its infinate and everything that can happen already has then i guess those little things on tv are actually aliens who eat spiders

you get my point ?

Well... I don't think you spent enough time thinking about what "infinity of potential/possibilities" truly means. I get your point, but your point has certain limiting contradictions that I'd like to bring to light, for you to examine, and contemplate on. I actually thought of the same thing you just thought of before, but then after I thought about it MORE, I realised the absurdity of such an idea, and here's why.

You are saying that there is a possible reality where aliens know of our existance, and there is a possible reality where aliens do NOT know of our existance, and there is even a possible reality where all aliens don't even exist, or maybe are spider-eating muppets in a TV show or something!

Well first of all, the existance of EVERYTHING is known by someone, somewhere, otherwise it wouldn't exist. What I mean is, we are a creation of consciousness, and that consciousness "thinking us up" is the reason we exist (even though this "thought" didn't necessarily happen in any TIMEFRAME, it always was). However, we're not living in just 1 potential reality, we're living in ALL of them - we're only AWARE of one of them, due to our limited, linear awareness. So what does this mean? Those beings that are aware of more potential realities than we are, and perhaps aware of ALL of them, and are able to PICK and CHOOSE the realities which they wish to inhabit, those beings are aware of us. Now, given the subjective realities vs objective reality, I think this begins to make more sense. Something which may exist on one reality but may not exist on another reality still objectively EXISTS, though not perceived by everyone, as it depends which subjective reality you are perceiving from.

Ok this is getting confusing.. lemme see if I can say it another way...

Everything exists, as long as it is POSSIBLE for it to exist. Therefore, a contradiction doesn't exist within the same reality. So, if given the infinite nature of the universe, then SOMEONE is indeed aware of our planet, on ALL realities, because on a reality where no one is aware of our planet, our planet doesn't exist! Just by EXISTING, we are a focus point of someone's awareness. Because, every single part of everything that exists is a focus point of someone's awareness, otherwise it wouldn't exist. The key concept here I think is consciousness, and that it is the reason for this timeless infinite existance, and it is all there really is. If the universe was just "free floating matter in space and time" then sure... but since there IS no space OR time, at least from a higher awareness, then the entire "cosmos" can be seen simultaneously and therefore so can we. A linear mind has problems trying to visualize something like that, so I would advise you think about the logic instead. You cannot yet conceptualize a timeless and spaceless existance, nor can you conceptualize having more mathematical dimentions than just 3 (hence 3-dimentional). Neither can I! But you can still UNDERSTAND these concepts, though I gotta admit.. I struggle with them each day. They don't ever seem to become 2nd nature to me, and every time I get into a duscussion such as this, I am forced to think about them all the way from scratch again, and after I'm done and I can understand it again, I then try to convey it to someone else. 10 minutes later I will again be going "HUH?" and confused about how I could understand this, because my mind is unable to conceptualize and/or visualize this. It's not as easy as remembering "2+2=4" and whenever the concept is brought up your mind instantly responds with teh answer. This one you gotta "figure out" each and EVERY TIME you think about it, or at least I do!

I truly hope this makes sense, otherwise I can try saying it another way, but I hope you think about it and it sorta "clicks".

-Mike

Originally posted by Al Vereco

quote:
One last thing: You've come to these conclusions just by logic alone? What if your logic (or logic in general) is flawed? What if, for example, it IS possible to create something from nothing? If we can't easily conceive of non-linear time, perhaps there are other deeper things we don't understand, such as how it is possible to create something out of nothing...

But that's the problem, there is no such thing as "nothing", NOTHING doesn't exist. Everything is SOMETHING, even SPACE, just a pure empty vaccum, is SOMETHING (even if it's an illusion)! So if nothing existed, then SOMETHING would not exist. And the other way around, since something exists, NOTHING cannot exist!

I think you misunderstood my question here, lilblam. I wasn't particularly asking about "something out of nothing". I was suggesting that perhaps our general idea of logic might be flawed, or at least not as 'solid' as we might think. Our logic is based on how things in our universe work, but who's to say that logic always works the same way in other universes or levels of existence?

Well, perhaps. However, given the logic that we DO have, I'd think it's useful to use THAT much, and when our awareness changes, so will our understandings and theories. Logic is a word, a concept, which describes a structured reasoning based on awareness and certain knowledge obtained through that awareness. This is the only tool we have to work with at figuring out the universe, and at gaining knowledge, at least at OUR level of existance. Mathematics is also rooted in logic, and I think mathematics is truly the universal language. It may change, it may grow MUCH more complicated as our awareness rises, but the fundemental truths remain TRUE no matter what reality/awareness we have, and this I can say with assurance. What I mean is, given the proper PREMISES, the conclusion will always be the same.

Here's an example. Is 2+2=4? If you define 2, define +, define =, and define other mathematical parameters such as "Use a 10-base numbering system", the result will inevitably be the same, no matter who is doing the calculating and what level of awareness he may be on. In a 3-base number system, 2+2=11. And that's a fact, just as much as 2+2=4 in a 10-base. It all depends on the premises/conditions. So once you define the premises, the conclusion is invariably the same. Do you see what I mean?

With increased awareness, certain PREMISES might change. For example, our physics is now based on a 3-dimentional premise.. that reality is composed of 3 dimentions. At least highschool/college physics! However, certain theoretical physics touches on the possibility of other dimentions, possibility that time doesn't exist, quantum fields, you name it. So when the premises change, so do the results/conclusions. And it is the PREMISES that change with increased awareness, which lead to those new understandings and conclusions about reality. If you are a being that perceives 4 dimentions, you can STILL do 3 dimentional physics, as long as you define that you're working with a reality that assumes the existance of no more than 3 dimentions. But now you would also be able to do 4 dimentional physics, which is infinitely more complex.

I hope that makes sense

Oh by the way, my favorite explanation for why God exists is:

Person 1: God exists!
Person 2: Can you tell me the logic behind your reasoning?
Person 1: God is above logic, so logic can never be used to prove or disprove him! Therefore, he exists no matter what you say!


Mike here: But we CAN know certain things, just by applying logic, and some of this logic is truly universal as for example the 3 "laws" I mentioned earlier

1) You cannot have something out of nothing
2) You can not reach infinity, otherwise it wouldn't BE infinity in the first place.

These things are not necessarily "awareness based", and there are more such understandings that you can obtain just by carefully thinking about certain concepts. As long as ASSUMPTION is not present such as "God exists" or anything ELSE, you won't fall astray. However, sometimes we assume without even consciously knowing it, which is why strict self-observation, reflection, and careful analysis is necessary of everything we do/say. Assumptions/beliefs are the only reason humanity is so "confused" and "lost". This is also a "logical conclusion" that you can see the truth of just by thinking about it carefully. Assumption is at the ROOT of ignorance!

[edit on 7-6-2004 by lilblam]

As I was reading the last post, I think I suddenly understood some things...

First, if any being was ever to achieve 'timelessness', then of course they would know everything and be everywhere at once, since they live forever and also have infinity in which to do whatever they want, including going back and forth in time. Given this, they would "eventually" discover a populated Earth and could "then" observe it at will. Therefore, somewhere out there IS at least one being which is observing us. Is this what you were getting at, lilblam?

Also, a timeless 'reality' could be visualised (at least in my mind) in this way... The 'time' we experience is a line with one's consciousness/awareness as a point in the center. I'm not sure if this line would be infinite in length or not. I'll leave lilblam to give his thoughts on that. But anyway, we are (or each person is) a point moving along the line of 'time' in one direction, from 'past' to 'future'. We can only conceive of the Line of Time but in reality the line is only part of a larger structure. A plane, or even a cube. If the line was infinite then this plane or cube must also in some way be infinite. This would also be 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional time....... "Timelessness" would therefore be the ability to somehow perceive and experience reality in this 2D or 3D "time", which is All Possibilities...

Wow, I'm confusing myself now!


Therefore, my questions to lilblam are:

1 - Is the line infinite? And therefore, is the plane/cube infinite?
2 - Would "time" be a plane or a cube?
3 - How could we possibly raise our awareness to acheive this timelessness?
4 - On second thoughts: Would a timeless being necessarily live forever?