Seismic analysis NYC 9/11

I am looking at the seismic readings from NYC 9/11. Any pertinent input would be helpful.

Hypothosis: If there was a preceding event, besides the plane (Not similar in size, weight or fuel capacity to a 707) impacts, that contributed to the building collapses it should show up in the seismic records.

The leveling of the Twin Towers generated seismic disturbances that were recorded by a half-dozen seismic recording stations within a 20-mile radius of Manhattan.

911review.com...

Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on September 11 that has still not been explained.

(LEDO)
www.ldeo.columbia.edu...

Here is an overall seismic chart of the entire 9/11 NYC incident (LEDO)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ae14353bcb4c.gif[/atsimg]


Detailed Seismic chart of North Tower collapse (LEDO)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3431d9494a3d.jpg[/atsimg]


Detailed Seismic chart of South Tower collapse (LEDO)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6337a39b781d.jpg[/atsimg]

What are these smaller waves prior to the big waves?

At what point in the seismic graphs do the collapses begin?





[edit on 21-1-2010 by In nothing we trust]

I think you could be on to something here sir.

We need to borrow some of those guys from the Earth Quake Thread to

help us translate these.

Look at FEMA's seismic again.

After WTC1 and WTC2 have both collapsed, you are still seeing spikes they label as "further collapse" (without any elaboration) occurring in pretty regular intervals. These would likely be events inside of WTC7.

There were reporters on the scene reporting explosions occurring about every 20 minutes according to one reporter.


This reporter says about every 15 or 20 minutes:




Another reporter talking about the explosions, saying she was told they were either cars bombs or cars exploding from being overheated:





Also considering all the witnesses that said there were explosions in the basement that coincided with the plane impacts, you could be looking at bomb signals that are labeled as plane impacts. Think about what kind of seismic activity a plane flying into a massively redundant skyscraper 1000 feet up in the air could cause. In my mind not much. The towers were not tuning forks.

[edit on 22-1-2010 by bsbray11]

As you can see in the graph that the 1st plane slamming in to the tower achieved the same or greater seismic activity as the collapses.

Eyewitnesses in the basement and others claim to hear explosives going of in the lower level right before the plane struck.

During the second impact there were also witnesses that explosives were used at the moment of impact as a cover for the charges. Te graph seems to support this.

reply to post by bsbray11


You will have to remember, that the WTC Towers did not collapse in 10-15 seconds, but more like 30 seconds from start to finish. In fact, watching the collapses which show a good section of the Towers collapsing, you will see the cores standing for about 15 seconds after the initial collapses. Usually it counts to 15 seconds of the exterior columns and floors collapsing, and then about 15 seconds after that, the 40-60% of the core remaining, collapsing as well. This could very well be the cause of those shakes after the initial collapses.

Here is one for the North Tower:


In the South Tower the collapse in this video start at around 3:34, and lasts till about 4:01:


The strongest signals are when the initial debris starts hitting the ground. Also, the rest of the signals are just the reverberations of the initial collapse impact. Its not everyday we get to see a seismic record of two 100+ building collapses.

Also notice the peaks for both towers. Notice how the North Tower's peak is larger and more pronounced than the South Tower's peak. The North Tower's debris and collapses started from a much higher point than the South's. So it took a little bit longer to impact the ground and had a little more kinetic energy on impact than the South's. An interesting sidenote.

reply to post by GenRadek


I have no idea what relevance you think your post has to mine. I was talking about seismic events that are separated by more like 20 minutes than a few seconds.

Please be so kind and type in the ATS "Search" link :
LaBTop seismic

You for sure will find hours of study material, written by me, many many years ago already.
Sorry for the broken links to the temporarily off-line site where I posted most of my basic research,
www.studyof911.com...

Bsbray11, Thickheaded and me are momentarily trying to find a way to get them, the Studyof911.com administrators, to revive that site again.

That site had definitely one of the best and biggest video and photo bibliography about the 911 events, on the Internet.
I think that PayPal will be the ultimate answer to revive it again, thus the original links can be resurrected by them, and we can start dumping lots of interesting new and old 911 stuff, back on that site again.

In the mean time, if you still want to study most of my posted seismic pictures and especially my seismic drawings, have a look at my uploaded media files about my seismic evidence I have posted on this site, ATS, so many years ago already :

LaBTop's Album: Seismic evidence 9/11.

Start by studying this large drawing, which was linked to in my thread and many of my posts in other seismic oriented threads, which you will find when you use the above Search words.
See the full picture, click this link :
LaBTop's Picture Gallery - View Photo - LDEOseismic-discrep-WTC7-LT :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9de0eb1e6e68.jpg[/atsimg]

See the one fitting in this forum space, with all of the texts and the full graph, so you can see the overall picture, especially the much smaller peaks from the global collapse, after that huge, invisible for the cameras, initiating event :




This following Cianca photo, with NIST's own used time stamp, used consistently over the years by them, is the main culprit, NIST never came up with an answer to. See my above texts in my drawing.

Since they can not answer their own institution's research-mismatch with another institution's research, LDEO, the seismic station which recorded the 911 seismic events :

Cianca's photo from the first sign of the start of global structural collapse of WTC 7:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fbbe69122acc.gif[/atsimg]

This is my Seismic evidence thread of an added huge energy event [best bet: Explosion(s)], before the start of the final collapses of WTC 7 (and WTC 1 and 2) in which thread you can start reading, and also follow links to other ATS seismic threads where I posted in, and try to match the dead links to StudyOf911.com, in that thread and others, with my above linked ATS Media Album's "Seismic evidence 9/11" photos or drawings.
This is that thread ::

I challenge NIST Answers to FAQ - Supplement (December 14, 2007)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

They never came up with any solid counter arguments, they even widened the time gap between that photo from the first visible roof movement of WTC 7, and the LDEO seismic graph's time lines, by a staggering 5 seconds more than the first time discrepancy I already proved to them, in their NIST Final WTC 7 report.

Remember, NIST and LDEO are both government institutions, and the 911 research they both started and ended, definitely contradict each-others findings, especially about the WTC 7 collapse.



Here are 3 other very good thesis about WTC 1 and 2, seismic discrepancies, written by Frank Legge , MacQueen, and Furlong and Ross :

Frank Legge : Vertical collapse of WTC 7.
www.journalof911studies.com...

Mac Queen : Early Earth shake WTC 1 and 2.
www.journalof911studies.com...

Furlong + Ross : Explosions in towers before jets hit.
www.journalof911studies.com...

[edit on 28/1/10 by LaBTop]

reply to post by GenRadek

GenRadek, overall, I have no problem with 95 % of your reasoning, and I do agree with most of it.

Only, this sentence I need to address :
"" The strongest signals are when the initial debris starts hitting the ground. ""

It would express the intended meaning better, when you read that as :

The strongest seismic signals of course were created when, and after the initial debris started to add its (impacting to the ground) extra mass to the already proceeding impacts of all the collapsing internal massive weight of columns and floors crashing down on the still erect mass of the building.

So, all in all, we agree for the best part with each other.
Read also the thesis of MacQueen which I linked to above, and things will be more clear for you, and the casual reader.


However, if I may attend you to the intent of what I wrote all these years here and everywhere else, the problem which still is not addressed by NIST and neither LDEO, is the totally different time stamps of the seismic institute (LDEO) and NIST's conclusions, especially for the WTC 7 collapse.
Add to that the PROVEN fully pure free fall period of about 3 lengthy seconds at the beginning of the WTC 7 global collapse, and we have a mega problem to be addressed by NIST, LDEO and the US government.

But all we see is a massive white wash and "thundering" silence on this immense important subject.

No surprise anymore for me, it's totally clear to me what is going on in our once beloved USA.

[edit on 28/1/10 by LaBTop]

The one and biggest discrepancy however, occurred during the WTC 7 initiating global collapse events.

There we also see an explosion spike depicted in that seismogram, at least 4 to 6 seconds before the first visual sign of global collapse initiation of the whole WTC 7 building.

Which global total collapse, wrote a much SMALLER seismic spike on that LDEO seismogram, than the preluding MUCH BIGGER ( in fact the biggest recorded ) seismic spike that was written by the seismograph's needle, 4 to 6 seconds before anyone could see anything on or at the WTC 7 building, move at all.

Thus, before ANY (ev. falling) DEBRIS was present at all, inside or outside the WTC 7 building.
Non-existent debris that could have instigated a seismic reading.
NO DEBRIS at all, anywhere, when that seismograph's needle began to write that biggest seismic event in the whole graph!
And we know that because we have lots of camera angles recording the minutes around the WTC 7 global collapse events.
No broken windows, no sign of structural failure recorded on film or photo.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7f58b163c7ad.jpg[/atsimg]

And that's the QUINTESSENCE of my seismic WTC 7 evidence thesis.

PS: Read the bolder part of this past post of mine, and some things will be more clear for the readers :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 28/1/10 by LaBTop]

GenRadek, this was my post of 2 years ago where I proved to a lot of OS-non-believers that the, then running wild theory of a 9 to 10 seconds free fall demolition of the Twin Towers, was totally wrong :
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Now, for those who like to get to the heart of the matter with less reading time at hand, I will concentrate those last linked thread texts to their essentials :


When you search for the essential facts when trying to decide if my seismic WTC's thesis can be correct, this page 9 and a specific posts of mine in there is important :

Seismic Data, explosives and 911 revisited, page 9.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Post :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Overall, it means that I addressed a few essential points :

1. Flooded escalator shaft ends, down in the basements, were perfect muffling spots for very heavy explosive charges, meant to cut most of the heaviest steel columns at their very bottom ends and let the cut columns slip aside for a certain distance, which is in every big building demolition job, the essential initiating event.
When a few moments or seconds later the death-blow to the building is dealt and the last remaining heavy columns will be blown aside a few floors higher at the first maintenance floors just above the lobby space, it will be shortly followed then, by the crashing down of the whole overhead weight of that building, assisted by some tactical placed other charges at the other 2 maintenance floors much higher up.
Water is a highly effective sound muffler, especially for HE cutting charges, which sound effects by their already own characteristics, are "" downright disappointing "", compared to f.ex. a massive ANFO explosion, both exploded in open air.
HE-cutting charge explosives are heard as a "sharp crackling" sound. But they can in effect be much more damaging to any building, constructed from steel or concrete beams and columns, than a massive "roaring" ANFO charge exploded in their basements or against an outside wall.
The cutting charge will start a dislocation of a few essential beams and columns, followed by a natural gravitational imploding of the above massive weight of the rest of the building.
The ANFO will most of the time just blow a massive hole in a wall, without leveling the rest of the building. Which is normally, massively reinforced with steel (or/and steel-bar reinforced concrete) columns and cross beams.


Then you have this thread and its page 11 and specific posts of mine in there which are important :

I challenge NIST Answers to FAQ - Supplement (December 14, 2007)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

2. Regarding the Oklahoma City bombing :
"Even the smallest of those detonations (from the May 23rd demolition of the REMAINS of the Murrah building) had a larger effect on the recording than the collapse of the building," he added, "which demonstrates that the explosives are much more efficient at exciting the ground motion than is the collapse of three-fourths of the building. So it is very unlikely that one-fourth of the building falling on April 19th could have created an energy wave similar to that caused by the large [truck-bomb] explosion."

In other words :
Initiating demolition explosions, do record on seismograms much more explicit, than the whole following natural gravitational collapse of the total weight of the to be demolished building, onto itself.

Even more simplistic :
For example 200 kilograms of exploding HE cutting charges will leave the highest peak in a seismogram of WTC 7, while the whole weight of one million kilograms or more, of the whole building crashing down, will leave a longer duration of packs of seismic peaks, but these are much lower in amplitude.

How come? This is why :
The total force of a HE-cutting charge explosion or a thermobaric explosion device is expelled and measured during a few milliseconds, while the following and intended gravitational collapse caused by that explosion takes more than 10,000 milliseconds ( 10 seconds) in the case of WTC 7.

So, the sudden force on the underlaying bedrock or soil, per few milliseconds, microseconds, nanoseconds, picoseconds, or whatever other very small part of one second, is the main cause of the huge amplitude of the recorded peak by the seismic aperture, in those 4 to 6 seconds BEFORE anything happened on the roof of WTC 7.
BEFORE any camera or eye could see any sign or movement at all on the walls and roof of WTC 7.

And this post :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

3. "" ( LT: ) I have posted before on professor Terry Wallace, because he was mentioned in a forensic seismic experiment in Kenya, after the US Embassy bombing in Nairobi, to determine the exact explosion time, which they said was found with a precision of thousands of a second (milliseconds), through the seismic records.
Keep this in mind when you hear or see certain seismologists trying to tell you that the exact 9/11 seismic times could differ within a 2 SECONDS error frame. That's 2,000 milliseconds above the possible error margin! ""

Years later LDEO even updated its first calculations (from the day of 9/11/2001 for the Twin Towers, and 9/14/2001 for WTC 7), after being pushed by NIST to come up with a solution for their biggest inter-institutional time referral problems, with a staggering 3 seconds, to fit at last somehow a bit into the 5 seconds update by NIST from their video bibliography.

This however made it even more clear for the keen observer of my big graph, linked above, that the Cianca photo time stamp (which was NEVER changed by NIST btw) even shifted the moment of start of the global collapse of WTC 7, ( defined by NIST as " the denting and sinking of the east side roof on top of WTC 7 " ), more to the right in my big text filled graph, thus placing the arrival of that event (see the Cianca photo time stamp in my graph) smack in the middle of the two pairs of seismic peaks.

And the second pair of peaks, the lower ones, are the signals recorded for the total global WTC 7 collapse, when both the east and west roofs sank in and the north facade windows started to break and subsequently the whole roof and walls came thundering straight down. Just like to be seen in most other demolition videos.



To the Original Poster, the OP :

You started this thread, but you don't participate. How come?
Too much INPUT, like in the film "ET"?

Here are a lot more important posts of mine with some fairly unknown seismic graphs in them, have fun reading them, I nearly filled half the page, (somehow a bad habit of mine? Too short attention span for most westerners with a full time job and a TV set to read that much info?)
If the Archive.org links don't work for you(you have to copy/paste all the link-parts together, ATS has again changed its link-coding I see, which is the scrumptious time, a pain in the butt for sure, they make a lot of links in important, long ago posted posts uninteresting for the casual reader), try the added TinyURL links, one of them should work :

I challenge NIST Answers to FAQ - Supplement (December 14, 2007)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the first reaction typed down by prof Wallace, a forensic seismologist a few days after 9/11/2001 :
Forensic seismology analysis of the terrorist attacks on the pentagon :

web.archive.org...://www.geo.arizona.edu/geophysics/faculty/wallace/WTC/
That is Wallace's WTC page at Archive.org, please cut/paste the two parts together in a new browser window, the full link won't work in the ATS coding.

He later removed his Pentagon impact seismic time stamp, a very strange move indeed :
Wallace's Pentagon page at Archive.org
His Pentagon page now gives a server error for his Seismogram 1 at that page, so -they- even can delete material at Archive.org.
-They- work diligently to wipe out all relevant 911 material -they- don't want getting to the masses. That's the only thing left -they- are afraid of, a massive part of a population which suddenly gets so angry on -them-, that they revolt.

Surprise: we still have that "Seismogram 1" from (then dr.) Wallace, he was in a hurry, or was still in doubt, he did not wipe the time stamp out with a white band, but with a yellow one :



[edit on 29/1/10 by LaBTop]

[edit on 29/1/10 by LaBTop]

[edit on 29/1/10 by LaBTop]

911exposed.org...
The Navy Command Center was the Target of the Attack.

At the Pentagon! I posted parts of this info already in 2005, in my first post at ATS, at least one person paid attention and did some more research, thank you!