A little discussion about Revolution and the Declaration of Independance

reply to post by whatukno


We could check out those revolutions but what would be the point? It is not I who is stubbornly claiming that all revolutions are necessarily peaceful, it is you who is stubbornly claiming the opposite. Are you deluded? Perhaps, but I am inclined to believe you are just being stubborn.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Stubborn is a word that does describe me, I do agree with that. I just think it's important to understand what goals a would be revolution wants before joining up.

It's easy to make a call for revolution, what is hard is finding out why the person who is making that call.

I personally believe that endisnighe has no intentions of freedom for his revolution, just anarchy, slavery, destruction for the purpose of destruction, and imposing his will on the masses.

These are goals I just cannot stand behind.

by the way endisnighe, don't you find it ironic to insinuate that I am engaging in ad hominem attacks against you, when you purposely misspell my username?

[edit on 1/16/2010 by whatukno]

reply to post by capgrup


See this is the illusion our government means to project on anyone that is affiliated with either the Tea Party Movement (Taxed Enough Already) or the 9/12 Project.

9/12 explanation

1. America Is Good.
2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.
God “The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained.” from George Washington’s first Inaugural address.

3. I must always try to be a more honest person than I was yesterday.
4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.
5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.
6. I have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but there is no guarantee of equal results.
7. I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.
8. It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion.
9. The government works for me. I do not answer to them, they answer to me.

The 12 Values
* Honesty
* Reverence
* Hope
* Thrift
* Humility
* Charity
* Sincerity
* Moderation
* Hard Work
* Courage
* Personal Responsibility
* Gratitude

Now I am not a member of either movement, I have gone to several Tea Party gathering just to see what they were about. In my area they spread the info through facebook and myspace.

Pretty much people getting together to talk about out of control government in our lives and lives around the world.

I felt their message was honorable and righteous. I am all about power is derived by the individual, not society.

When collectivism is rampant, justification for the greater good can mean problems for the individual. It is simple logic and knowledge of history.

As for the Federal Reserve, the 1913 move to implement a private bank to loan ourselves money, and the bank to keep the profits, is illogical and downright usurps our rights to keep the profits of the country as a whole.

The Fed is private, all profits are kept by unknown people, unknown entities and is the greatest scam committed on the American People. Imagine how much money has been siphoned off us in 100 years. Why is our government broke besides the politicians? We borrow money, from someone and pay them interest on it, for the very money we print up.

You thought Bernie Madoff was a thief, he stole a grapefruit compared to what the Fed has done to us.

Plus, we never get to see their books, EVER.

And yes, the Tea Party (please quit using teabagger-it is derogatory and created to demean the movement) has been purposefully overrun by provacateurs and zealots. That is the way of your government, infiltrate movements and destroy them or take them over.

Thanks for the comments. God Bless and Peace.

old Chinese saying
'the winners are nobles
and the losers are bandits'

Just as an example based on my previous post, let's consider the proposed Healthcare Bill as it was before it went into reconcilliation. Under that plan:

1. Employers who elect not to provide Healthcare coverage were to be fined $750 per year per employee. That cost compared to $10,000+ per employee per year for a Group policy.

2. If my employer does not provide insurance, I would be mandated (forced) to purchase a healthcare policy for myself and my family based on a list of acceptable government policy options through a private insurance provider, which earlier last year averaged $15,000/yr per family policy.

3. If I failed to maintain a government acceptable policy, I could be fined $250,000 and serve a 5 year prison sentence.

4. All of this to be inforced through the IRS.

Once the financial impact on my family for such an expense became clear, I realized that my only future option would be to "not comply". Although the final draft of the Bill is not yet known, the secrecy surrounding it is cause for concern. Should it be as I described and pass,

1. I will not comply with forced purchase - there is no point to having health insurance if having it results in "no life" for my family.

2. If I won't buy the policy, I certainly won't pay the fine.

3. When they come for me or to remove my chidren from our home because they are not properly insured, what kind of response should I make? I can tell you the response they will get and that my revolution will start and likely end at that time.

reply to post by DChenO


But there is a new American proverb-

Destroy your enemy
Before he exists


The old divide and conquer tactics are alive and well in our country. Even here on the boards. Anything to demean or derail any movement that is against out of control government.

Thanks for your comment. God Bless and Peace.

The issue is contentious, yes, but the debate is drifting into becoming 'personal'.

3 deep breaths and... continue civil discourse please.

reply to post by mrbarber


Also, have you been reading about the latest they have done on the bill?

The government-anyone that works for it and the labor unions that got the Dems in office are all exempt from the legislation.

If this is not a call to stop them, WHAT IS?

They are creating a class war. Those that have power will dictate to those who don't.

I will not submit, I am lucky not to have a extended family of my own(if you can call it luck).

They are out of control. What next, they exempt themselves again on other legislation?

This is blatantly against the law. They are crazy to think something is not going to happen. They are doing this on purpose.

reply to post by whatukno


Your concerns are noted and I stand behind you just as firmly as I stand behind Endisnighe. You are 100% correct to insist that the goals and strategies of a revolution should be fully understood and indeed, the consequences even more so. I am not so sure it is as important to understand the motives of a person calling for revolution, as it is to recognize that revolution is change, and that change is eminent whether we accept it or not. It is how that change comes about and what we change into that need be considered and carefully planned.

As to Endisnighe's motives, I am not as willing as you to dismiss them as you have, and as I have stated before, I have seen him make great efforts to learn and to listen to others. As far as either you or I know, he is a member of this site only using the forums made available to him to voice his very real and palpable frustrations. This is his right to do so, just as surely as it is your right to challenge him.

Is Endisnighe ready for the heavy responsibility and awesome mantle of leadership of a revolution? Probably not, and there is much he has to learn and many emotions he must learn to reign in and temper before becoming a leader of such a serious movement as revolution. Yet, I have seen him grow and learn in just a few short months and don't find it as difficult as you to believe he can become this man, and certainly he can with our help.

I say keep challenging him, Wuk! Stay at him and continue to hold him to a higher form of reason and temperance, but I entreat you to temper your own stubbornness and show our brother some compassion. For surely we are brothers, if not the Three Musketeer's, the three of us, and surely we all want to be free! Why not teach him what you know, Whatyouknow? Yet, how can you expect to teach him if you insist on alienating him? Allow him to be who he is and teach him what you know, and perhaps, you just might find, he has a thing or two he can teach you.

Ah, but there I go, sanctimoniously preaching just as I accused you of doing so yourself. Enough of that then, be who you are and let our brother be who he is, and perhaps with a little compassion, one day the three of us will meet and share a drink and toast to our health and liberty!

P.S.

It just occurred to me that I too am misspelling your user name. Forgive me friend, it was not done purposely so.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Thanks for the call for openness and civility Jean Paul. I will order a Capt'n Coke with a nice cognac or glass of Clos du Bois. I will also need a Casa Magna Colorado Robusto cigar. Damn, I have not had one of those for about a year.

Ah, the memories are almost palatable.

I am flexible on some positions, others inflexible. I will not pay into the system any longer. It has become too corrupt. Constant wars, legislation mandated for some people but not all, taxes taxes taxes, regulate regulate regulate.

There is a problem here in the US and simply voting for Hope and Change does not cut it. I know of two people in government that can keep their word. Kucinich and Paul, no other names come to mind. They are all corrupt to the bone.

Anyway, when the last of my savings are gone, a party would be necessary.
Party like its the end of the world.




[edit on 1/16/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by endisnighe


When it comes to freedom and the rights of individuals we should all be inflexible and zealously guard them. When it comes to instituting government or dealing with the government we have, a certain amount of flexibility is required, but never at the expense of freedom. Keep up the good work brother, and one day we will toast to a prosperous future where justice and liberty are more than just empty words.

The true revolution will begin when thousands or possibly millions of Americans like myself are confronted by Government agents because of non-compliance to mandates we are incapable of complying with. As enforcement begins those of us facing the loss of our children and families, our freedom, our homes and property, and everything we've worked for during our lifetimes will be left with no recourse other than to resist and then attack. Hopefully, neighbors will come to the aid of neighbors when the shooting starts and the revolution will begin to organize rapidly.

TPTB have infiltrated most patriot organizations and neutralized their ability to plan or implement any effective response. TPTB have been conned in that the real threat to the fascists in power isn't in a group. The real threat is the Mom and Dad next door, the guy down the block, the school teacher, the truck driver, and every other breathing human being in this Country who treasures what America is supposed to be and loves the freedom and liberty that she stands for. When those people come to the defense of each other, the true revolution will be undrerway and the filth in our government can't infiltrate the hearts and minds of those people.

Should we tolerate the government as it stands now for the corporations and not the people? Of course not.

Should we demand a government that works towards the goals of liberty and not legislates against those very liberties? Of course we should.

Who elects these career criminals in power today?

What can we do to change the mindset of the average American who only votes along party lines, who only votes name recognition?

I am a fierce proponent of the vote, it is our voice, it is our will that puts people in power, that power can be taken back just as easily. Without a single gunshot.

I am also a proponent of peaceful demonstrations, I think that the tea party movement should not be dismissed so easily. The people in Washington may not have heard the call, but main street America sure did, loud and clear. Any candidate in the 2010 and 2012 elections that ignores the tea party protests does so at their own political peril. I know I have said it before, but it's the truth.

Every day I see people that have woken up to the fact that those in power have completely lost hold of the idea of what they were sent by us to Washington to do. The wake up call is to send better people. I believe in America, I believe that we are no where near where our founding fathers were when they penned the Declaration of Independence. I just don't see that tyranny yet.

Don't get me wrong, the government has lost it's way, and it has lost it's mind. But that's not the same form of tyranny that the founding fathers went through.

We still freely elect these people, when that right is taken away from us, then will the tyranny be on the level that the founding fathers went through.

The notion I was suggesting earlier that the people that want revolution should form a third party is in my opinion the correct one, I think that individually political parties are weak, but together, they can be a unifying force. I believe that most Americans want freedom. The problem is what freedom means to who.

To endisnighe, freedom means personal responsibility. To me freedom means something different, similar but different.

reply to post by whatukno


I wish you were right concerning our vote, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Our votes are cast for candidates that are sponsored and funded by Corporate and special interests. They are marketed much the same way any other "Product" is marketed. They campaign on platforms that are appealing to their party voting base and say all the right things to appease that base...also part of the marketing plan. The result is that no matter who wins the interests of the sponsors is served.

Obama promised everbody the moon, won the election, and promptly dropped his drawers and gave us his moon. But he didn't lie.

Originally posted by whatukno
Should we tolerate the government as it stands now for the corporations and not the people? Of course not.

Should we demand a government that works towards the goals of liberty and not legislates against those very liberties? Of course we should.

Who elects these career criminals in power today?

What can we do to change the mindset of the average American who only votes along party lines, who only votes name recognition?

I am a fierce proponent of the vote, it is our voice, it is our will that puts people in power, that power can be taken back just as easily. Without a single gunshot.

I am also a proponent of peaceful demonstrations, I think that the tea party movement should not be dismissed so easily. The people in Washington may not have heard the call, but main street America sure did, loud and clear. Any candidate in the 2010 and 2012 elections that ignores the tea party protests does so at their own political peril. I know I have said it before, but it's the truth.

Every day I see people that have woken up to the fact that those in power have completely lost hold of the idea of what they were sent by us to Washington to do. The wake up call is to send better people. I believe in America, I believe that we are no where near where our founding fathers were when they penned the Declaration of Independence. I just don't see that tyranny yet.

Don't get me wrong, the government has lost it's way, and it has lost it's mind. But that's not the same form of tyranny that the founding fathers went through.

We still freely elect these people, when that right is taken away from us, then will the tyranny be on the level that the founding fathers went through.

The notion I was suggesting earlier that the people that want revolution should form a third party is in my opinion the correct one, I think that individually political parties are weak, but together, they can be a unifying force. I believe that most Americans want freedom. The problem is what freedom means to who.

To endisnighe, freedom means personal responsibility. To me freedom means something different, similar but different.

Wow, after all your vitriol, you come back with this, star for you.

And as GW said, If this was a dictatorship it would be a lot easier, just as long as I'm the dictator. The man was an ass, but he told a mean joke.

Whatukno, you berate me for 2 pages, then say this. Was that to shutdown the thread so that when people get to about the 5th page they read the vitriol?

Do not ever underestimate the people that have awoken to the absolute TREASON that has been going on in Washington. If they do not turn back from this ****, they will be turned back. Not by me, but by people that have been listening to the **** coming out of Washington.

For your information, I have never voted in a National Election. I will never voter for EVIL. Lesser of two evils is still EVIL.

Every President since JFK and further back still, has led us to this point in TIME. I am a trend reader, and listen good. They know the US is a powder keg, they have people like me listening, reading, and studying the trends in the US.

Here is a couple things YOU should read. They are from your government.
strat_trends_23jan07.pdf
2025_Global_Trends_Final_Report.pdf

I am not blind or easily influenced, I am not brilliant, but I am above average in IQ, very above average. I never studied the classics and crap, they are irrelevant to any discussion. Sci-fi is my bread and butter. Imagination opens the mind to ALL possibilities. It allows you to see outside that fracking box they have put us all in since childhood.

So now you come to me and give me this, what is this, more drivel?

I am an Individual and by that I mean I am a Sovereign Entity that by my very breath and knowledge of my existence I have RIGHTS that are inherent to everyone that KNOW they exist.

You think you may know ME? No one can put me in a box! NO ONE!

That being said, thank you for actually being human, I was beginning to wonder.

edit to add-boy that was a nice rant, if I say so myself


[edit on 1/17/2010 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by BingeBob
reply to post by j2000

 

You say "Mass bombings" like they would ever need more than 1...

The masses are weak...Show me proof of otherwise

My lack of faith is not in the message you preach it is in the weakness of our nation and their willingness to "work it out civilly".

Our nation is too comfortable thats why i say the public services need to be cut off before anyone can be roused...When people are comfortable they are like warm putty for the govt. When they are uncomfortable they have a half a chance.

I finally know what it means. "An army of one".

reply to post by endisnighe


If you have never voted in a national election, then in my opinion you have no reason to complain. If you think that something like your vote is so trivial that it shouldn't be counted, why should you complain when the government does something that you don't like?

(Let me tell you now)
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
Revolution, Evolution, Masturbation, Flagellation, Regulation,
Integrations, mediations, United Nations, congratulations
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

I vote, I write my reps, I call them, I email them, I try and be the best American I can be by being a part of my government. I take personal responsibility for the people I vote for. Why? Because they were my choice to send to Washington. If the person I vote for, isn't sent to Washington, I still feel obligated to inform them of my opinion on the issues because that is what I believe is our duty as Americans to do.

Being apathetic to the process just weakens your voice. I remember years ago, I was hanging around Ft. Collins Colorado when I came upon Ben "Nighthorse" Campbell (If you don't know he was a Senator in Colorado.) I berated him for switching from the Democratic party to the Republican party during his term in office.

Endisnighe:

Thanks for getting back to me. I still don't understand
the Fed, but then my own checkbook confuses me.

As your list goes I pretty much agree on all of them
except #1.

I do not believe in God, so therefore I do not accept
the premise that my rights and liberty derive from
there. I brought this up in another of your threads
and too my knowledge it was never answered.

Also, just as I will never get on my knees for another
person, government or philosophy, I will never bow
down to anyone who tries to force me to believe in
something I feel isn't there.


As far as the"teabag" movement, and they did refer
to themselves as that until they learned of the modern
connotation of the term, and the fact that they wore
teabags from their hats, I just cannot take them seriously.

Another reason I cannot take them seriously is their
methods. Whatever a person thinks of the current
President, using pictures of Hitler and analogies
to the Nazi's is just plain stupid.

To even try to make that connection is intellectual
laziness and shoes the true ignorance of the education
system of this country. Other than that I agree with
you.

reply to post by whatukno


Bravo! Well done Wuk and nicely said. While I am not in total agreement with all of what you've said, it is heartening to see how your very real and palpable frustrations are just as valid as anyone calling for radical change. I know I am one who has been fairly dismissive of your calls to vote, and to be honest it's not as if I've stopped voting, if for no other reason than to remain eligible for jury duty, but your firm belief in the power of the vote is to be admired and respected.

I have also recognized and admired your willingness to give the Tea Party movement credit and its due in a site not so tolerant of those who would do so. There are many admirable qualities to your position and they should be recognized here in this thread, for if we are to ensure that The United States remain united and free then we must do so together.

That said, and I am sorry to allow such admiration and respect segue into disagreement, I am, however, compelled to respectfully disagree with your assertions that today's U.S. government is nowhere near the levels of tyranny that our Founders faced in 1776.

The United States imprisons more people than any other country in the world. In 2002 the U.S. prison population exceeded two million people for the first time in history. The U.S. has by far the highest incarceration rate at 726 prisoners per 1,000 people. Compare that to the second highest which are Russia, Bulgaria, and Bermuda which each have 523 prisoners per 1,000 people, or with Cuba that has 190 prisoners per 1,000 people or with China that holds 118 prisoners per 1,000 people, and it should be clear that the U.S. is in love with imprisoning its people.

Yet, when compared to other industrialized nations, the U.S. has very similar rates of victimization in terms of crime. It is not that We the People of the U.S. are more criminal than other nations, it is that We the People are incarcerated for non-violent victimless "crimes" more than other nations, while also keeping those criminals who have committed crimes in prison for longer sentences than those other countries. While there was a noticeable increase of real crime during the 1960's and 70's, this increase in crime only accounted for 12% of the increase in incarceration, while the changes in sentencing and drug policies accounted for the remaining 88%

In past threads I recall you claiming or stating that when American citizens are hanged for voicing their opinions like they were before 1776 then you would be ready to cry revolution. I am not quoting you exactly but I remember this because since that time I have periodically done some research attempting to discover just how many people were hung or executed by England for voicing their opinions.

Certainly not Thomas Paine, whose seminal work Common Sense, literally stirred a continent of colonists towards revolution. There were some, I have found that were executed for treason, but I have found few. There was Jacob Leisler, who in 1688 led a rebellion and was arrested and executed in 1689, and honestly that is the only name I have been able to find, and am simply allowing that there must have been a few more, but so few as to not merit historical account and certainly England is not infamously known as executing its colonists for voicing their opinions.

While the U.S. is not necessarily known for doing so either, there is this disturbing, indeed very disturbing so called "Patriot Act" that radically changed the political nature of the U.S., the federal government and We the People. In 2009 FBI Director Robert Meuller and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napalitano testified before Congress that they were just as worried about "homegrown" terrorists as they were threats from overseas. While the term is specifically used to describe those who would plot to bomb, or wreak massive violence upon the American people, the names of the "homegrown terrorists" who have been arrested before committing these atrocities are those such as "Mohammed Amawi, Marwan el-Hindi and Wassim Mazloum were part of a terror cell in Toledo that wanted to launch attacks against U.S. troops overseas — made all the easier by their status as Americans." (From the Combined Armed Center Blog) Not the Timothy McVeigh's your so fond of paralleling to members in this site or other anomalies such as Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber.

However, increasingly the term "homegrown terrorist" has gone from being used in its strictest sense to a more cavalier usage that would describe vocal citizens angry with their government. I have seen the very Tea Party members you have laudably recognized as viable being unjustly labeled "terrorists", and I just yesterday read a story on how Bill O'Reilly was calling for the arrest of the man who verbally castigated former President George Bush Sr. in a restaurant. Imagine that, a blow hard media analyst who greatly relies upon his First Amendment right calling for the dismissal of another persons First Amendment right all in the name of what? Loyalism? Patriotism? Anti-terrorism?

Unlike today, there was no such thing as a tax on income when the U.S. was still just 13 colonies under the rule of the Crown of England. If England wanted the colonists to contribute more to the treasury they would do so by imposing taxes on certain goods that were consumed which means there was no such thing as imprisoning tax evaders during that time, since evading a tax or defeating it was fairly easy to do simply by refusing to buy the product being taxed.

People did not have to seek out licenses and gain permission to do business with each other. They did not have to deal with administrative agencies demanding entry into their homes, into their place of businesses and buggies. Indeed, when there was just 13 colonies beholden to the Crown of England, there was no such thing as the Department of Horse and Buggies that demanded surrender of the bill of sale in trade for a title of registration, and the colonists were not required to obtain a license to ride their horses with buggies or even just their horses, and parking? No meddling parking attendants issuing tickets that amount to just more taxation to those horses or buggies improperly parked, people just parked their horses or horse and buggies where they could and that was that!

The Crown of England nor the colonists themselves dared to think they could send in agents to whisk children away from parents because they had the audacity to homes school them rather than send them to a public school and public schools were a rarity at that time. Even so, it is hard today to find a publicly educated person who could claim to be more erudite than George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, or any other of the Founders who found they were unjustly ruled by a tyrant. However, if parents today feel they are better equipped to teach their children than public school teachers are, they must fight expensive battles in courts that will go all the way up to Courts of Appeals and still be told they have no right to teach their children well.

I would have to agree with you when you state that we are no where near where our Founders were when after all ready engaging in war issued the Declaration of Independence to formally justify that war, as they did not suffer near as much the long train of abuses and usurpation's that We the People today have. I have not doubted your belief in liberty and I strongly admire your insistence we find that liberty through peaceful means, and I to this day it can be found peacefully, but that we must demand this liberty be respected and that the federal government back the hell off, is not in question. Enough is enough, and it is not unreasonable to expect to be at least as free as our Founders!

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by endisnighe

 

If you have never voted in a national election, then in my opinion you have no reason to complain. If you think that something like your vote is so trivial that it shouldn't be counted, why should you complain when the government does something that you don't like?

(Let me tell you now)
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
Revolution, Evolution, Masturbation, Flagellation, Regulation,
Integrations, mediations, United Nations, congratulations
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

I vote, I write my reps, I call them, I email them, I try and be the best American I can be by being a part of my government. I take personal responsibility for the people I vote for. Why? Because they were my choice to send to Washington. If the person I vote for, isn't sent to Washington, I still feel obligated to inform them of my opinion on the issues because that is what I believe is our duty as Americans to do.

Being apathetic to the process just weakens your voice. I remember years ago, I was hanging around Ft. Collins Colorado when I came upon Ben "Nighthorse" Campbell (If you don't know he was a Senator in Colorado.) I berated him for switching from the Democratic party to the Republican party during his term in office.

I feel compelled to respond to this post only to clarify that it is the earlier post that I applauded so vigorously, and would again respectfully disagree with the sentiment that if one doesn't vote they have no right to complain. One does not need to vote for a POTUS in order to feel the sting of Executive orders or other actions, and one does not need to vote for members of Congress in order to be weighed down by the chains of needless and even oppressive legislation. One need not vote for a Governor or state legislature to know the slap of tyranny and one need not vote for a Sheriff in order to face the brutality of power corrupted.

People have the right to complain, not because they vote, not even because there is a First Amendment stating so, they have that right because it is their right, even if it is the high pitched and nasally whine of complaint.