Dutch Butterfly Crop Circle Mystery 2010: New Footage.

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As far as the "xld-sign" claim is concerned,
there is only one actual solid fact available in this story:

- A Human Butterfly Crop Circle.

What remains is either to ignore or to ponder the significance and meaning
of the available facts relating to the wider context as discussed at this thread.




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SOL let me know if you got all i wrote
this years crop circles are very biblicly cryptic

Originally posted by Sol12
reply to post by atlasastro

 

Frankly Atlasastro,

All I do here is point out to the fact that there is no credible evidence
available that points out this CC would be made by "xld-sign".

I know you have done that. But this is by your standards, whilst ignoring other facts that support the claim.

No one else has made any claims to have created this CC.

So we only have one claim, from a group known to have a long history of CC's. Thats strikes me as a credible claim, but it is supported by poor and vague evidence. The claim is not out of the ordinary as they have a long history of making circles Sol12.
What some fail to consider is that XLD have been deliberate in keeping the details vague.

It is not me who is casting doubt on a "man-made" claim,
it is those who refuse to provide evidence/facts to their claim
who are casting doubt to the legitimacy of their claim.

Come on Sol12. You are trying to infer, as others are, that this circle is not man made and you are using XL D to do that.
In reality, you cannot even show something not human just once, making a crop circle in the entire history of crop circles, so the doubt is only on a group of humans that made the circle and not the origins of the circle in realtion to a man made or non man made context.
In reality we only have one known and shown cause for crop circles, and that is US, humans, so the discussion cannot even begin to consider there is doubt regarding the circle being man made or not man made purely based on the doubt we have concerning XL D claim.
This means that logically, the circle is man made because that is the only known cause for crop circles in the entire history of crop circles.
You and I just doubt the men that claim they made it. This does not dismiss humans as making the Butterfly CC. So the man made claim is not in doubt in any logical sense at all.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/46a4c79d152a.jpg[/atsimg]

I never get tired of looking at that CC.
How awesome is it!

Anyway.

I'll throw my hat in again with interpreting the facts.
Here are more to interpret and show a connection between XLD and the circle.

I think what makes XL D-signs interesting is that as a group they have a long documented history of making circles and do not appear to have a habit of Just making CC claims with dutch circles, so why would they "just" claim the Butterflyman?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5d93719ac1d7.jpg[/atsimg]
Note the photographers name. I know you are familiar with Joop.
Joop does aerial photography. Joop has worked with XL D-signs before.
Here is a link to Joops site, it has the sameROC formation made by XL D-signs in 2007.

Of course Joop, a professional photographer that also specializes in aerial photography, just happened to have a helicopter ready on the 7th. Just happened to be called about the CC, Joop also happened to have worked with XL D before. How amazing hey! Amazing co-incidences always seem to occur around contrived events, don't they Sol12.
These facts need to be considered.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7819118a105c.jpg[/atsimg]



Thanks again for replying to my post.

reply to post by atlasastro

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Atlasastro,

Originally posted by Atlasastro

"This means that logically, the circle is man made because that is
the only known cause for crop circles in the entire history of crop circles."

"So the man made claim is not in doubt in any logical sense at all".

Let's just settle our difference in opinion relating to the significance
and origin of the CC phenomenon for now, by agreeing to disagree.

As I wrote elsewhere:

Originally posted by Sol12

The interesting fact regarding the crop circle debate is that
neither the 'believers' nor the 'non-believers' find themselves
in a position to make a solid case regarding their convictions.

You see, I feel there is no point to argue with the logic of someone who states
that "all crop circles are man-made" just because a tiny small percentage
of decades of documented CCs are known to be man-made.

Fact is that for the majority of documented CCs there are no credible solid
facts available to prove/show their origin and their method of creation.

You can either ignore these facts, or you can accept that the "man-made"
hypothesis is only backed up with facts in a minority of cases.

Unless you believe CCs "appear out of the blue",
it makes a lot of sense to look for alternative explanations.

Originally posted by Atlasastro

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You do understand, I figure, the logic of this phrase applies too
to the hypothesis that some CCs may be made by extra-terrestrials?

The available evidence in favour of the "all CCs are man-made" hypothesis
is a minority of documented CCs that are known to be man-made, that's it.

The available evidence in favour of an extra-terrestrial hypothesis is
a great majority of documented CCs where no facts are available to
explain their origin and method of creation. In addition there is 60+
years of documented evidence and controversy available which points
out that we are being visited by extra-terrestrials.

Originally posted by Atlasastro

"So the man made claim is not in doubt in any logical sense at all".

As you can not provide the facts to back up the claim
that "all crop circles are man-made" and no one else has
been able to provide these facts during the past several
decades, I would say it is highly illogical from a scientific point
of view to insist to hold on to the "all CCs are man-made" hypothesis.

Now, let's get back to the subject of this thread: the Butterfly CC.

As you know there are no credible solid facts available that explain
how this CC was made, who made it nor why it was made.

This debate concerning the Butterfly CC is not about private beliefs,
it is about exploring the available facts and anyone is free to draw
their own conclusions, so are you.

I'm not going to rephrase the same issues I've made clear
earlier on in this discussion.

You want to believe this CC is man-made.

I want to know whether this CC is man-made, if so, who made it,
why it was made and most important, how it was made.

So far, I have not been able to find any solid credible facts that show/prove
it would be man-made and therefore I have no reason to believe it is man-made

Originally posted by Atlasastro

"I think what makes XL D-signs interesting is that as a group
they have a long documented history of making circles"

The facts and wider context relating to the unsubstantiated claim by "xld-sign",
a non-existent, unregistered 'company' without a chamber of commerce record,
with a "long-documented history" of making unsubstantiated claims, are available
in the public domain, anyone can either verify the issues I've brought forward
or continue to ignore these.

There is no record available in the public domain that points out that any of the
'associates' of the alleged 'company' "xld-sign" are artists nor any records that
show they would have the expertise to create this giant Butterfly CC, as claimed,
during a short 6 hour summer night.

No need to point out here that the mini ROC "sand-letters" made on a beach
in no way compare with the gigantic Human Butterfly CC found in a field of wheat.

www.xld-sign.com...


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c9254a28227a.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/46a4c79d152a.jpg[/atsimg]

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About Joop van Houdt, the aerial photographer who reported
the Butterfly CC during an interview on Dutch live national radio
on August 7th 2009, including the interview and a translation.

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Joop van Houdt is a full-time professional aerial photographer,
he has his office in the same region where the Butterfly CC was found,
as such it is not surprising that he is the one who happened
to have reported the discovery of the Butterfly CC.

Interesting fact is that Joop van Houdt still has some images of the Butterfly CC
posted at his website but he has meanwhile removed any reference to "xld-sign".
He just comments that he photographed the Butterfly CC on August 7th 2009.

www.flyingcamera.eu...

If anyone so far has the right to make a 'claim for fame',
it is Joop van Houdt, the one who reported the Butterfly CC.

He has also removed the image gallery that contained the infamous group-shot of the
alleged 'artists' posing in front of the camera. This particular image has widely been
used to promote the "xld-sign" claim, it has never been posted at "xld-sign" website.

defotograaf.smugmug.com...

See this post below by "tragos", someone who had signed up to ATS during
the early Butterfly debate, as soon as the group-shot was available he claimed
to be a "xld-sign" associate, he posted the group-shot, a link to the "xld-sign"
website and to CCC. We never heard of him again:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

A rumour about broadcast company BNN's involvement originated from the fact
that the initial discovery of the Butterfly CC was announced during a live BNN
radio-show after discoverer Joop van Houdt, the aerial photographer, had emailed
an image to the show and he was called back to tell his story about the discovery.

Broadcast company BNN has meanwhile made it clear that they were not involved
in the "initiative" of the creation of the Butterfly CC, they merely state/claim they
were present in order to shoot some footage featuring "geraldine" as shown
in BNN's non-revealing "New Footage" video posted in the OP of this thread.

Of much interest here is the rather telling fact that the BNN live radio-show
which announced the initial discovery of the Butterfly CC is never being mentioned
during the 6 minute BNN 'making of' broadcast on Dutch national tv.

During this live BNN radio show an attempt was made to find out the identity of
the creators and the conclusion of this attempt was that no one knew who had
created the Butterfly CC and "xld-sign" has never been mentioned during this show.

In the days following, "xld-sign" announced the claim they had created the Butterfly CC
and posted one of photographer Joop van Houdt's images at their website. In addition
the external image gallery was created where the infamous group-shot was posted and
links to this group-shot and to the "xld-sign" website were soon posted all over the web.
It took in fact another week before "xld-sign" mentioned the few spare details
relating to the alleged "project atlas" that are still posted at their site. Initially
they mentioned an entirely different location than where the Butterfly CC was
found which they corrected only after someone mentioned this
in the "readers comments" section at their website.

Here is an excerpt of the BNN live radio-show where Joop van Houdt
is being interviewed regarding the Butterfly CC (in Dutch):

media.abovetopsecret.com...





Below is a translation of this interview that was broadcast live
on Dutch national radio by BNN on August 7th 2009:

DJ: - A very bizarre image we have, as mentioned earlier, it is available
at the "Koen & Sander Show" website (koenensandershow.nl), a "wheat art-work"
near the town of Goes, it is a kind of crop circle but not a circle, a very large Butterfly.

- The image has been provided by Joop.
- Hello Joop, good afternoon.

Joop: - Good afternoon.

DJ: - You are an aerial photographer.

Joop: - Yes.

DJ: - So you are accustomed to looking down from above and take photographs
of beautifull things. But this is really really, well, unbelievable actually,
and in particular, you've added the "Kuip" football stadium in the image,
to indicate how large this Butterfly really is.

Joop: - Yes, I wanted to have something in it as you can't really tell how large it is,
take for example the one circle at the left-bottom of the image, I have walked in it,
it measures 36 meters (108 feet).

DJ: - Chuckles, yes.

Joop: - You can build a large villa inside of it if you want.

DJ: - Yes, and this Butterfly has a lot of circles, really incredible,
its very pretty too, it looks very beautifull.

Joop: - I wanted to add a reference that everyone is familiar with (football stadium).

DJ: - Well, ok, how is the story, you've send me this image, you hang there in the sky
and you just suddenly saw this or something?

Joop: - Yes, well I was informed by someone I know so we flew there this morning
at about 6:30 and well, yes it is already visible from a far distance. And the Sun which
just rose half an hour earlier, its truly a very beautifull sight, stunning to look at.

DJ: - So what were you thinking when you saw this?

Joop: - Well, someone has been very busy.

DJ + Joop: - laughing.

DJ: - Ok, well I mean, this is really big, I assume you have seen crop circles before
from the sky? could you tell..

Joop: - Yes, well never anything this large a circle, this is monstrous.

DJ: - So you have no problem to state this is the biggest "artwork"
in a field you've ever seen?

Joop: - Well, this is the biggest in the world ever.

DJ: - Biggest in the world you say?

Joop: - Yes.

DJ: - Ok, well thats quite a statement.

Joop: - Yes.

DJ: - Ok, we have posted this image now at our radio-show website, we have
received a lot of reactions so far, but some people are in disbelief and state
this has to be photo-shopped, this can't be real.

Joop: - Yes, well I'm not even going to respond to this, these are such dumb
statements, last year we received similar responses after photographing a cropcircle
and all I can say is that folks should go have a look, just make this effort.

DJ: - Yes, it is located in the area of the town of Goes?

Joop: - Yes, for people who are near the area, it is close to the "blauwe wijk"
in the "wilhelmina polder".

DJ: - Ok.

Joop: - Just go take a walk, it will take you quite a while to walk around it.

DJ: - Unbelievable, well I'm very curious now to find out if there are any people
around who know more about this, who may have any idea to who has created this.

- Maybe you have been very busy tonight?

Joop: - Well, no no, these have to be very special people, because,
well just try do this in the dark you see, this is made at night after all,
and if you just see how perfect this is.

DJ: - Well, yes it looks very impressive, I have no idea.

Joop: - I find it very remarkable.

DJ: - Ok Joop, I'm going to investigate this now, I want to really thank you
for sending this image to our show and wish you all the best.

Joop: - Thank you, you're welcome.

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As mentioned earlier, of interest to note here is that this BNN live radio-show
which announced the initial discovery of the Butterfly CC is never being mentioned
during the 6 minute BNN 'making of' broadcast on Dutch national tv.

Joop van Houdt, who has his office right in the area where the Butterfly CC
was found, states that someone he knows informed him to go have a look,
he makes it clear, he has no idea who is responsible for the creation of this CC.

The BNN DJ makes it clear that no one has come forward to provide any information
about who would be behind the creation of the Butterfly CC and he sets out
during the show to find out more.

During the BNN show no one called in to provide any information and the show ended
concluding that nobody knew who had created this CC.

In the days following, "xld-sign" announced their claim, about 10 months have passed
and no credible facts/images/footage is available that substantiate the "xld-sign" claim.

The archived web-page of the BNN radio-show where Joop's image
of the Butterfly CC was initially posted and the comments of visitors
discussing the image is no longer accesible:

www.bnn.nl...

What we know from the available context relating to this controversy is that
several parties have been involved in promoting the unsubstantiated "xld-sign" claim,
an overview of the details can be found in this post I wrote earlier:

The making of a cover-up?

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b46a7db30f02.jpg[/atsimg]

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[edit on 24-6-2010 by Sol12]

reply to post by Sol12


Mate thank you for your thorough and investigative reporting.

Simply outstanding!

I have managed to open a lot of peoples eyes about this crop circle - they are evolving in thinking processes due to not only the fantastic design, but the story that comes with it!

If anything we can thank the frauds for bringing this divine art back into our hearts. YEAH !

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow

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Originally posted by Zeitgeist

"If anything we can thank the frauds for bringing this divine art back into our hearts. YEAH !"

Zeitgeist,

Thanks for your feedback and support.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/16997148125c.jpg[/atsimg]

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reply to post by atlasastro


yes the art work on the book may be before the netherlands formation and indeed davinchis art work was before that but the essance of any of the formations are using sacred geometry and art work that "WE" can understand and decode you see the problem is as ever with this world if it cannot do it or explain it then of course its relegated to the very depths of existance ie doesnt exist its fake 2 guys with a plank and so on the case of any formation is this simple for get who did it or how it was done what is its message for there lies the worst crime against your bretheren and yourselves for you allow your own ignorance and predjudice to deny yourself and worse others the TRUTH i know what the formation symbolises and my conciousness is directly connected to it to the point i asked for it in its deighn size and placement and i can tell any of you what it does indeed mean but i fear few if any will get it it symbolises the absolute true center of what you must "BE" to ascend evolve into your divine self and i know this because by the grace of the GOD OF CREATION "ALL THAT IS" the butterfly crop formation in the netherlands is an image of your higher self understand it is bestowed by grace and it just a matter of faith and love

yes the art work on the book may be before the netherlands formation and indeed davinchis art work was before that but the essance of any of the formations are using sacred geometry and art work that "WE" can understand and decode you see the problem is as ever with this world if it cannot do it or explain it then of course its relegated to the very depths of existance ie doesnt exist its fake 2 guys with a plank and so on the case of any formation is this simple for get who did it or how it was done what is its message for there lies the worst crime against your bretheren and yourselves for you allow your own ignorance and predjudice to deny yourself and worse others the TRUTH i know what the formation symbolises and my conciousness is directly connected to it to the point i asked for it in its deighn size and placement and i can tell any of you what it does indeed mean but i fear few if any will get it it symbolises the absolute true center of what you must "BE" to ascend evolve into your divine self and i know this because by the grace of the GOD OF CREATION "ALL THAT IS" the butterfly crop formation in the netherlands is an image of your higher self understand it is bestowed by grace and it just a matter of faith and love
FURTHERMORE NOT ONE OF YOU CAN TELL ME OR DEPICT THE TRUE MEANING OF THE SYMBALSIM IN THE BUTTERFLY MAN FORMATION "NOT ONE" and i do challenge you because you are to blind and to deaf to GRACE YOURSELF WITH THE TRUTH when your over your own ignorance and predjudice ask me what it means because i do indeed know .
and this years formations are even clearer starting with the SEAL of GOD his signet ring he gave to SOLOMON but of course its just my opinion and we do know opinions in this world are like assholes.

Nice thread...nice posts SOL12 (Though I see you haven't logged in awhile) ....as for what this butterfly crop circle means --- we have many hidden powers in our body.....as seen on such shows as:

Discovery Channel - The Real Superhumans
History Channel - Stan Lee's Superhumans

60 Minutes - Super autobiographical Memory
Stories about Savants...(Many videos on Youtube)

Videos about the DUTCH ICEMAN and TUMMO Meditation....and HUMAN CALCULATORs

...and many more....an interested mind will find these videos easily on Youtube. Just as the same mind will find lots of solid DVD / video productions on Crop Circles and/or UFOs.....no sense wasting too much time convincing folk who don't bother to look at the full range of evidence.

Some prime examples of excellent DVD productions being:

Crossovers from Another Dimension - UFOTV - fully online
History Channel : I know what I Saw and Out of the Blue -- also fully online

...anyway about the butterfly CC -- the biggest hidden power of them all...is the one directly referenced by this Butterfly Crop Circle...but that is better seen in person than talked about....won't be long now.

To say it will be a shock would be an understatement.