I think I Am A New Aged Racist

I think you are probably somewhat xeno-phobic.

Immigration policies aside, in a democracy, it is the will of the people that is exercised through legislation enacted by official who have been voted into their seats in government.

So, if 40% of the population is immigrants that are now naturalized and citizens, then they are now part of the democracy and may seek to make any changes they desire using the system to do so.

If it's 25% then that's the number and so on.
No one should be expected to drop their language or cultural heritage because they have been forced to leave their original home due to whatever reason. But, it does behoove people to try and communicate with the people who take them in.

As for the whole "one world" idea, that's simply not true at this time. There are Nations and all nations have social constructs and all Nations have borders, populations, governments etc etc. (barring one or two trouble spots.)

Industrialized and developed nations are going to provide a better standard of living for anyone who functions within them. It's a no brainer that someone with half a brain would want to get to a better standard of living.

All boats rise with the tide. Tolerance is less than acceptance and if we are to truly be civilized, then we must accept the reality of humanity over nationality and to value our humanity over and above our artificial construct that is a nation.

Tribalism is still quite prevalent in all societies, but is diminished somewhat in industrialized nations.

Ultimately, it is up to the individual to examine themselves and their motivations, to review your world view and to take a look at yoru fellow humans. They are all valuable! They all have something to offer! There will be problems and there will be successes.

Work towards making yourself a better person and spend less time worrying about others. It is an effort well with undertaking.

my mother came here illegally when she was 12, worked hard, and did really well to help my family get ahead. As a "brown" person and the son of an immigrant, respectfully, OP, *SNIP*


As for my stance on immigration,

they should just make it easier for them to become citizens and pay taxes. I figure if you're going to be here in the best place in the world, you'd better be paying for it.

also they should want to learn english and we should want to learn spanish or whatever the hell it is. I've said this before, kids in europe speak at least 3 different languages. What, we shouldn't better ourselves and understand other people's cultures? Is that too boring for you?

[edit on 7-1-2010 by alien]

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Hi tothetenthpower, I feel the same frustration as you, and the funny thing is that I am an immigrant into the UK whose first language is not English; here are my thoughts:

I don't think that what you say is racist. Not as it is defined in the dictionary anyway. I think what you experience is taking ownership of your country, which is fine, in my opinion. Many good behavioral habits can come from such an approach, for example you don't throw litter on streets because these are your streets and you don't want to live in crap. Unfortunately, many Brits don't give a flying hoot about good side of ownership, but concentrate on some obscure cooked up problems, which have no resemblance with reality. The problem lies in the conflict of the truth and perception. You see, you don't own any part of the UK, neither do I – however we act like we do.

I came to the UK because UK was a lesser evil, that is, the rules and social structure was better for me than my country of birth. As such I accepted the whole package. I moved here because I didn't like there, and as such I don't want here to become like there. The moment it becomes like there I'll move elsewhere. So, just like you, I am perplexed with people moving from X and creating a little X quarter in the middle of the UK City? What’s the point? The positive side of this however is the variety you get as a result, which I like, but if it wasn’t there I’d not cry about it.

Thus I think the feelings you and I have are natural response to something, and this something is not what we think. It could be very dangerous to let the line of thought, originating from this feeling to run away without critical analysis, because one can slip down the wrong slope, like many BNP supporters.

I think you’d agree, that once immigrants become part of the UK society they are entitled to their 2 pence on how the UK should be run. In a way it makes sense. I live here, I pay taxes I want to have a say how these taxes are spent. By the way, for years I paid taxes, but was not allowed any benefits (not that I cared) or right to vote, such is the UK law. You see, you cannot say that it's OK for one group to lobby for harsh measures against dog # on streets, but not ok for another group to lobby for public flogging for theft. In both cases, a small group wants to impose something on a larger group. This happens all the time, this is the UK we all love and hate to change, apparently.

Basically, the whole topic is a big mess. It's hard to have a clear cut. For example, there is a list of jobs that very few Brits want or can do, Science, IT, Pharma, Medicine as well as farm workers, cleaners, etc. Why? Don’t know, maybe too many Brits are lazy, maybe government screwed up, who knows. But if those jobs were not filled, the UK economy would be even in the worse condition now. So, these guys immigrate, perform their jobs, settle here, spend their money here, and so on. Do you think they do not have the right to vote? There are other groups, refugees, illegals, criminals, which is completely different issue, and has little with immigration as a phenomenon. The bottom line is, what applies to N-generations UK born should also apply to a settled immigrant, both rights and duties. We are all humans. You got your rights for free during your birth, I earned my rights. You like a bit of a racket after football game, I think there is no excuse for bad behavior, we both lobby for things we want. Usually we want the same things, I am sure you don’t like drunks throwing up on your doorstep, or bad behavior of nay sort. And here lies at least part of the problem.

The problem is not in simpletons like us. Well partially it is because we allowed for all this to happen. Do you think British soldiers want nothing else but kill Arabs? Do you think Arabs have nothing better to do but blow up themselves? Do you think Germans in 1940s wanted nothing else but to kill the rest of Europeans? Do you think Muslim girls in the UK or Iran want arranged marriages? Do you think parents of those girls want it? Something rotten is going on, we all smell it but our frustration is directed at the wrong people. It’s not the immigrants who want certain things to be done. Majority of immigrants flee from their countries to escape all that crap. When they come here, they also want to change some of the UK crap, which indigenous population would support. Therefore it is a small group of vested interests want certain crap to be in the UK, the crap which is not wanted by locals and immigrants alike. Some of that crap is firmly stuck to our cloth (culture, religion, etc) and its removal may damage the cloth. Clothing itself is fine, different styles and fashions, brilliant, but the crap being attached to the clothing for a long time, wearers of this crap do not notice all of it. They come here and see UK local crap and point out that it’s a crap. UK locals see immigrants coming with their crap and call it what it is. This process is good – we help each other to get rid of the crap. At the same time someone else tries to move the crap from one clothing to another masking it as a right to wear crap.

In summary, I think it’s not immigrants that you don’t like, it’s the crap they bring and your crap they point out to you. The latter is a good process; the former is the bed one. I believe many immigrants would gladly remove their crap. I did. I didn’t notice it before and my UK friends showed it to me. Unfortunately, an invisible small group of people who placed the crap on out clothing in the first place want this crap on us, both foreign and domestic, the more crap the better.

Originally posted by Occy AnonymousAlso, the world belongs to no one. Your country is not YOUR country. It is all one world and it has no owner, people and governments claiming land for their own are sadly delusional.

In theory that's correct but billions of dollars of tax money are spent on the military because in practise it doesn't really work like that. It doesn't even work that way for animals and they don't have governments or corperations claiming the land. For them it's just as simple as them needing the resources in a particular areas to survive and wanting to survive more than the other animals who need those same resources. In truth it isn't all that different for us except that we have trade and have technology to make better use of land so more can survive on the available resources.

Blue Pill answer: You are racist and possibly xenophobic. Immigrants enrich our lives and expose us to cultures, languages and traditions that are illuminating. This helps us to better understand and tolerate the differences these people wish to share with us. Do not expect immigrants to learn your language, appreciate your freedoms or respect your values and ideals. Show them respect and put their needs and wishes ahead of your own and those around you.

Red Pill answer: Thanks for being honest and open about your views. Many of us feel the same and have been saying these things for quite some time. These are issues that need to be addressed. People will throw labels your way but don't despair. There are times when reason, logic and common sense need to take precedence over emotion, political correctness and indifference.

Which colour looks best to you?

S&F.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Red Pill answer: ...These are issues that need to be addressed. ...

Your red pill answer is far from complete Dark Ghost. There is an issue but what is the issue and what is the problem and what kind of solution different groups/movements are trying to impose on you and me? Let me know if you agree with my post above, closer to the end of the post.



[edit on 7-1-2010 by mushibrain]

reply to post by tothetenthpower


First of all I think you know full well that this is neither new nor racism. It's pure and simple xenophobia.

Right now that you have been admonished let me say it's xenophobia based upon entirely warranted fears. I totally agree with you. I wouldn't get the same benefits of society if I moved to Poland. I wouldn't get full housing benefits or have my property taxes paid for me. I wouldn't get reasonably free and effective healthcare. I wouldn't get grants for clothing, TVs beds cookers sofas etc. I wouldn't expect them to reproduce every council or government leaflet or publication in at least a dozen other languages. I wouldn't get free higher education and free computer courses to make me a more attractive prospective employee.

AND if after all that I decided to return home or move on to another country I wouldn't be expected to make recompense to that society for which I had been such a parasite.

Until 1999 I had been wholly in favour of economic migrants. I took the moral high ground and called everyone else racist. I gave the commonwealth nations immigrations to the UK as examples of how good immigration could be.

My own personal run in with immigrants to the UK

In 1999 I worked in Slough in the UK for a while. I ran a pub in which there was an unwritten line right through the middle of it. I had white British on one side and Indian sikhs on the other in ratios of 40% and 60% respectiviely. These asians had very strong family links with India. Most of the guys would go to India not only to find brides but to marry them and bring them back to Britain. then they'd demand all the aforementioned benefits. But what got to me was something they were always referring to as 'the free bank'.

So one day I asked some of them what the free bank was. their reply, the Department of Social Security. I kid you not. They deliberately brought as many men over as they could to take advantage of 'the free bank'. Within this group of about 150 Indian males there was a smaller group of about 50 who were literally the local gangsters which I found out about the hard way (another story for another day).

All these gangsters used to carry knives, some of them wore turbins and carried swords. These knives/swords were called Kirpans and because of the sikh religion they were allowed to carry them about with them when it was illegal for a non sikh to carry a knife. And it wasn't just the gangsters who carried the weapons, almost all of them over 16 carried them. To all intents and purposes these guys were British. They boozed, they womanised, they were fanatical about football, and they made a big deal about Christmas. Most of them were totally unreligious, but the second there was trouble (which was on a daily basis in my pub) they became militant sikhs and pulled their kirpans.

It was my experience there in Slough that changed my views on immigration forever. since then i have believed that to be an economic immigrant you should be required to be able to bring something new, something needed to your new country. and when you are there you should make every effort to mix and to learn their language and to respect the values of that nation.

FREAKY as I'm typing this there's a BBC news report on the TV about sham marriages for immigration so called 'marriage racketeering'. there's a Lithuanian bride who speaks no English marrying a Pakistani who speaks no Lithuanian. Since the Lithuanian now has a right of abode and benfits in the UK, she can make a significant amount of money, but not as much as the racketeers who charge up to £20,000. Guess what this racketeering gang are sikhs.

Anyway that's my rant for the day over. And OP I agree with you 100%.

[edit on 7-1-2010 by spookfish]

in view of my post above my comments to:

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Actually, a lot of people feel this way and they are not remotely racist and have nothing but love in their heart for their fellow man. The 'racist' accusation towards someone for having common sense concerning this issue is just a politically correct lie.

well said AshleyD, my answer to this was way too big. but then I think I may found the end of this big yarn in my post

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
...As for you hating immigrants, you seem to forget learning English takes time and money, many of the immigrants coming to you're country are far too poor to afford either ...

Sorry Occy Anonymous, but this is BS. You don't need to be rich to learn the language or behave in a polite way. As I stated in my long post earlier. this is an issue, but the problem is not immigrants per se.

Originally posted by Polynomial C
The OP has the views of what i classify as Bigot ..
Xenophobia is not cool ..

You're missing the point, Polynomial C. The issue exists. it is not right or wrong, it just is. Some interpret this issue in Xenophobic color, but the real problem is elsewhere. It's elsewhere but it exists, we are just brainwashed to look at the problem in one of two ways, both of them are wrong. Listen to this guy:

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by Occy Anonymous

 

You're entirely missing the point!!!!

[edit on 7-1-2010 by mushibrain]

reply to post by spookfish

Hey spookfish, all that you say I hear ya. But the problem is not in immigration. the law should apply to all the same. The wrong bit is not that they are immigrants, but that they braking the law, bending the law, etc. The same behaviour can be observed from some N-generation British born whites of Saxon or Norman heritage. When one does wrong, one should pay the penalty. I could brush the Brits in the same brush as you did and say that when Brits go abroad they behave badly and enjoy being protected by the UK. Locals would not be able to get away with some of those shenanigans. Check my long post above I talk about the real problem with immigrants see what you think.

reply to post by Occy Anonymous


Learning any new language does take time. The immigrants to the US of the last centuries did learn English. Some learned better than others based on their jobs and contact with English speakers. It was what was expected to be an American. Not some hyphenated American, but an American which is what they wanted to be. All of the division and "pride in roots" is a relatively recent phenomenon.
I think that the OP's comments relate to this latter item. The idea that all cultures are equally wonderful and should be preserved is pure nonsense. Cultures change daily and a survival of the fittest always ruled before. Why suddenly preserve them for the sake of preservation? What would happen if we lost Cajun music and cooking when New Orleans finally sinks? Not much. If it evolves and survives, fine; if not, goodbye.
As to language, not requiring the use of the language of the land from immigrants facilitates their continued use of their original language and slows assimilation. Consider Spanish-only speakers in Miami. By not learning fluent English, they are self restricted with respect to higher education and destined for menial jobs that require no language skills.
I sometimes meet people who are foreign born who tell me how bad the US is and how life is much better in their country of origin. They can never answer my questions "Then why are you here? Why don't you go back if it is so much better?" We both know the truth. It isn't.

Originally posted by piddles
my mother came here illegally when she was 12, worked hard, and did really well to help my family get ahead. As a "brown" person and the son of an immigrant, respectfully, OP, f^&% you.

Well that was a GREAT way to get your point accross friend, how mature of you. IN any case, you've mistaken my entire OP for something ignorant, when truly it was a plea for understanding, but I guess we all understand and read things differently huh?

As for my stance on immigration,

they should just make it easier for them to become citizens and pay taxes. I figure if you're going to be here in the best place in the world, you'd better be paying for it.

also they should want to learn english and we should want to learn spanish or whatever the hell it is. I've said this before, kids in europe speak at least 3 different languages. What, we shouldn't better ourselves and understand other people's cultures? Is that too boring for you?

I agree with you on everything you've said above. It should be easier for those who want to become citizens to become citizens and there should be more tools available for them to learn the language and the lay of the land so to speak.

And I understand where you think that I don't appreciate or enjoy learning about other people's countries, as stated before I have 4 children, 2 of which have been adopted from different countries and their culture is very much encouraged in my house.

Secondly most of my employees at the 3 companies I own and operate are immigrants who have worked for years to become self serving members of society.

I am not here to bash immigrants in general, this is about those who come here that don't respect my country and it's ideals and attempt to change them into the very place that they left from.

None the less, thanks for the input.

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower




It's not racism, neo-racism or new age racism IMO... because you're not saying that specific races are the problem.

Immigration is a problem in many countries.



You mentioned in the OP that you are "sick" of hearing about it in the news.

Do you think that the media has influenced your thinking somewhat?You said it's crept up over the last decade (post 9/11) so i was just wondering do you think it's the fear mongering or is it something that you have personally grown to be frustrated with in your own mind?

I don't think your racist. i think you're more xenophobic, it's understandable that you feel like that but you should also try and put yourself in their situation, how hard must it be for them having to bring their familes from wherever theyre from, try and adjust into a completely different society and learn a different language.
Obviously there probably are a couple people who are just not interested or feel no need to try and adjust because they have their own culture and their own beliefs and you should learn to respect that too.
Besides how closed minded and boring would countries be if there wasnt a multicultural society, its not really fair of you to critisize them, i mean you probably eat ethnic food, or order takeaway from your local chinese shops.

Originally posted by pteridine
...The idea that all cultures are equally wonderful and should be preserved is pure nonsense. ....
By not learning fluent English, they are self restricted with respect to higher education and destined for menial jobs that require no language skills....

nail on the head, nail on the head. However, every culture has some % of good things and % of crap. As I said earlier, when normal decent people from different cultures meet, they see each other's crap. that's human thing. you know, log in your brother's eye phenomenon. So when faced with the question, best of us get rid of that crap. All cultures have crap in them. Some bits of the UK or USA culture better be gone, as well as some bits of Chinese, Iranian, Polish, whatever cultures better be gone. A small group of bad people want this crap to remain.

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

It's not racism, neo-racism or new age racism IMO... because you're not saying that specific races are the problem.

Immigration is a problem in many countries.



You mentioned in the OP that you are "sick" of hearing about it in the news.

Do you think that the media has influenced your thinking somewhat?You said it's crept up over the last decade (post 9/11) so i was just wondering do you think it's the fear mongering or is it something that you have personally grown to be frustrated with in your own mind?

I was actually discussing this with my husband last night, and no I think post 9/11 media just made me aware of all the issues I had with immigration in general.

I know a lot of people have been influenced in the past year to just equate immigrants with either A)Terrorism, or B)Drug Violence or C)Parasites. But I see neither of these 3 things when I look at an immigrant.

I'm just frustrated with the fact that we are expected to change who we are for them, when as stated above I would not expect or receive the same treatment in another country.

I am ALL for immigration of all kinds, like I said, western culture was build by immigrants, but we do have something beatiful in place now. I love my Canada just the way it is, safe a few politicans and laws here and there, I don't want it to change and if I did I would move to a country that provides exactly what I want.

Thanks for the input.

~Keeper

Originally posted by letmebefree
I don't think your racist. i think you're more xenophobic, it's understandable that you feel like that but you should also try and put yourself in their situation, how hard must it be for them having to bring their familes from wherever theyre from, try and adjust into a completely different society and learn a different language.
Obviously there probably are a couple people who are just not interested or feel no need to try and adjust because they have their own culture and their own beliefs and you should learn to respect that too.
Besides how closed minded and boring would countries be if there wasnt a multicultural society, its not really fair of you to critisize them, i mean you probably eat ethnic food, or order takeaway from your local chinese shops.

Like I said, I understand and most immigrants I am proud to call my friends as they are some of the most hard working and productive members of society.

My 14 year old's best friend is an Indian boy whose parents immigrated here about 10 years ago and they are our close friends. His father is a doctor in the same hospital as my husband and his mother is a psychologist and they are wonderful people.

I dont' think I was specific enough in my OP and it ended up looking like a bigoted statement from some ignorant white man. My apologies for that one.

~Keeper

reply to post by AshleyD

In other words, getting irritated by rude, discourteous guests is a perfectly reasonable reaction.

guests?

what if they're rude, discourteous citizens?

:-)

I think a lot of us understand where you are coming from OP.
Take the UK.... Over many years we have had a history of immigration and to a large extent people have integrated and added a little spice to the cultural mix and we have all benefitted.
But now we have a cuckoo in the nest and I'm going to come right out and say it. Whole areas and cities even are being taken over by Asians who have not the slightest intention of integrating. A friend told me she was recently on a bus on which she was the only English speaker. Now tell me how that is a good thing?
And it is just spawning more and more. Your 'British' Asian gets himself a wife from Pakistan and pretty soon you have a whole extra bunch of little Asians in that self segregating but expanding community.
And of course along with them come the sari shops, the halal shops, the mosques, the fireworks, the religious processions. Out goes what we used to think of as England.
If you are on a train speeding past peoples back yards, you can spot the Asian communities just by the rubbish strewn gardens.
An Asian colleague told me how 'rings' buy out and keep out white proprietors. At that same workplace, the management brought in a fast track training and promotion scheme for Asians only.
As a white female driver, you get hassled at junctions and on roundabouts. They ignore the highway code with impunity. The police in these areas are known for taking a soft line on typically Asian crimes such as drug dealing.
And I really don't care if anyone calls me a racist for saying this. It's how most of the people I know feel. Though they don't like to say it...




[edit on 7-1-2010 by unicorn1]

Originally posted by unicorn1
...
As a white female driver, you get hassled at junctions and on roundabouts. They ignore the highway code with impunity. The police in these areas are known for taking a soft line on typically Asian crimes such as drug dealing.
And I really don't care id anyone calls me a racist for saying this. It's how most of the people I know feel. Though they don't like to say it...

Hey unicorn1, I think your anger is misplaced. You should blame police for not stepping on crime. I am sure you'd like extra privileges for females and would use them, I can't blame you. People use what they've got, privileges for younger people, for older people, for English for Asians. All what is needed is equal rights and penalties for all then all should be well. It's unfair to blame Asians. When I walk down the street I see tramps who beg for change to get the fix, none of them are Asians, most of them are 100% English white. Would it be fair for me to say: "those English are the drain on community"? No, because the issue is in a totally different thing. I live not far from a council estate, they are all English white and many of them are up to no good. Many of them don't work, are on drugs, were caught with stolen goods, etc. Many Asians in this area are working, providing the services to the local community, black and white. The picture doesn’t look good for white English born and bread. What does it mean? Many things but none of them have anything to do with immigration or race.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

I was actually discussing this with my husband last night, and no I think post 9/11 media just made me aware of all the issues I had with immigration in general.
I know a lot of people have been influenced in the past year to just equate immigrants with either A)Terrorism, or B)Drug Violence or C)Parasites. But I see neither of these 3 things when I look at an immigrant.

I wasn't suggesting that you'd been somehow brainwashed by the media to think all immigrants are terrorists or drug dealers or whatever, not at all, but even you must be able to see and will have noticed the rise in the negative stories and negative press that immigrants in general receive.

I mean, news in general is negative... how many stories do we get praising the work that immigrants do and what they have given to communities... ?

To be honest i wouldn't expect the news to do that because, as i said, they mainly focus on the negative aspects of ALL news.



My point was really this... Do you think just hearing (in the same way we heard "Terrorism" "Al Qaeda" "Muslim" "explosives" over and over after 9/11) negative stories about how a few immigrants don't mix well or don't know the lingo or sue because they couldn't read a sign or whatever, has a negative impact on your opinion or perception of Immigrants or Immigration?

I mean you said yourself that you feel bad and don't want to think this way... so I'm really just trying to figure out how much influence the media has had.
Because it has certainly had a massive effect on millions of others.




[edit on 7/1/10 by blupblup]