Racism and homophobia: different or the same?

Happy New Year everbody!
The issue of whether racism and homophobia is the same has many aspects. Firstly, it should be understood that all forms of intolerance are deeply hurtful.
To put the debate shortly otherwise: race is often a visible, inherent, unchangeable factor, while sexuality is considered a "choice" by many.
Then there is also the issue of homosexual identity amongst oppressed races, or "double oppression".
Well, as an intro I would argue that racism and homophobia are the same. Homophobia is not about every man or woman that has same-sex experiences, it is about gay people acting "stereotypically" queer in public. Similarly people claim to be non-prejudiced regarding race: just don't act black, Native American etc, or "white trash" in public.
It seems that everyone is acceptable to bigots, as long as they act like perfect versions of the hetero white middle-class. I find this argument dishonest: until we all have exactly equal rights, we cannot be expected to act equally!
When commentators claim that they are not "racist" or "homophobic" they may be correct. They are not prejudiced when the minorities shut-up and act WASP. However, let any any minority, sexual or racial claim their history and act in protest, and then watch the anger fly! Even black people are only given the right to BE black, but they will never be encouraged to ACT culturally black and different. Similarly gays may only be gay, but never visible as a different sexual group.
So for me the notions are the same.

Not sure if they are different or the same, but they are definitely overused and misunderstood by many.

[edit on 6/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

The only people I've ever met who weren't bigots were people in 12 step programs who were so into correcting the problems they felt they had with themselves that they had neither the time nor inclination to point out the failures, shortcomings, or differences that they saw in other people.

The only thing that makes it all the same is the susceptibility that we all have at different times in our lives to these ridicules self perceived shortcomings, prejudices, or labels.

reply to post by halfoldman

To both posts, thanks, so much truth.
But just wondering on 1st: If racism and homophobia recognize the differences in empirical truths then aren't they merely descriptive on one level? What irks me is that many argue race is empirical, but gays somehow act "gay" just for the fun. So racial divisions seem more empirical than divisions based on sexuality.
- To the second post: if genes make you an addict/alcoholic, then do they give you the right to act out on them? Many have asked me that.

Just curious OP.... I'm sensing some anti-white sentiment.

And how society doesn't want black people to act black...... It's not that I don't want them to act black, we're all the same, I just don't want people, (and since you like the color issue) black, yellow, blue, alien, white, maroon, to steal, murder, and rape, basic rules, now you may consider that 'acting black', but that's really inherent in every race.

Now, as for wearing sideways hats that aren't folded and baggy pants, I don't like it, but it's individuality, and i'm pretty sure they don't like me wearing A&F or Hollister.

Even black people are only given the right to BE black, but they will never be encouraged to ACT culturally black and different.

WTF?

What is culturally black? Exactly?

I'm really confused, most of the black people I know, are fine regularl people, the way i'm hearing it from you, is that their some shunned people, who do everything different and are hated for it...

- To the second post: if genes make you an addict/alcoholic, then do they give you the right to act out on them? Many have asked me that.

It doesn't give them the right to act on them, it means more discipline is required of them.

I've met people from my AA, who were hardcore addicts, and had a long family history of alcoholism, and still managed to pull themselves up to years of sobriety now.


[edit on 5-1-2010 by Republican08]

I think they're both the same in that they are both born out of ignorance and or fear.

People generally don't want to make themselves properly informed unless it directly concerns or relates to them. Which is unfortunate because there world is a very diverse place and if you go around hating people for "race" or sexuality, you're going to be spending alot of energy hating ALOT of people.

reply to post by halfoldman


Merriam Webster defines RACE as:
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : breed c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits.
Since homosexuals cannot interbreed naturally, it can’t be racism.
Homophobia, we’ll make that one simple. If you have a perceived unfounded fear of homosexuals, this title applies. If you substantiate a factual attack or threat against you, like the old woman holding up a Christian Cross that was beaten up in L.A. by the gay rights advocates, this title doesn’t apply.


[edit on 6-1-2010 by Violater1]

reply to post by Republican08

I was thinking "black" as to what contains Africanism in the diaspora. Maybe religious blends that become the basis of paranoia, like Voodoo are examples.
What do you consider "regular, fine" people? By what standard do you measure that?
Is that what it takes to become acceptable?
In much of Africa murder, theft and rape are much associated with white colonialism (esp. the Belgian Congo).

Originally posted by Violater1
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Merriam Webster defines RACE as:
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : breed c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits.
Since homosexuals cannot interbreed naturally, it can’t be racism.
Homophobia, we’ll make that one simple. If you have a perceived unfounded fear of homosexuals, this title applies. If you substantiate a factual attack or threat against you, like the old woman holding up a Christian Cross that was beaten up in L.A. by the gay rights advocates, this title doesn’t apply.


[edit on 6-1-2010 by Violater1]

A very dogged definition, mainly because of the obvious omission of color. I don't know where you jump from "race" as a possible "inbreeding group" to virtually making incest a criterion. Or am I missing something?
Since gays are more often the victims of violence, my heart and apologies go out to that lady - that is terrible and unacceptable if true.
At least traditionally racial groups spread from centrality to diaspora. Gays are born to straight people all over, so we move from diaspora to at least a conceptual centrality.
That much difference is true.
However, it is no longer exclusively true only for gays - many other post-colonial groups are moving the same way, ie. from dispersal to centrality.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Republican08

 

I was thinking "black" as to what contains Africanism in the diaspora. Maybe religious blends that become the basis of paranoia, like Voodoo are examples.
What do you consider "regular, fine" people? By what standard do you measure that?
Is that what it takes to become acceptable?
In much of Africa murder, theft and rape are much associated with white colonialism (esp. the Belgian Congo).

For me, regular, is just someone who wakes up everyday (bear is not regular, due to it's hibernation, breaking thus regular law, set by me), dress like the average american, hold a regular paying job, and is a upstanding family person.

That to me, is what regular is...

Yes racism and homophobia are one in the same depending on what definition you want to assign the terms to.

Bot racism and homophobia are forms of PREJUDICE.

A prejudice is a preconceived belief, opinion, or judgment toward a group of people or a single person because of race, social class, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, disability, political beliefs , religion, line of work or other personal characteristics.


I don't see why different labels need to be given to people who think race or sexual orientation define a person. I tend to just call them morons.

Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Republican08

 

I was thinking "black" as to what contains Africanism in the diaspora. Maybe religious blends that become the basis of paranoia, like Voodoo are examples.
What do you consider "regular, fine" people? By what standard do you measure that?
Is that what it takes to become acceptable?
In much of Africa murder, theft and rape are much associated with white colonialism (esp. the Belgian Congo).

For me, regular, is just someone who wakes up everyday (bear is not regular, due to it's hibernation, breaking thus regular law, set by me), dress like the average american, hold a regular paying job, and is a upstanding family person.

That to me, is what regular is...

Fair enough, although much of the planet does not have privilege of living like that (apparently we'd need another 6 planets to sustain the US lifestyle for all). So "regular' is an employed American of any sexuality or race who follows the average gender-based fashions dreamt up by mediocre gay men?

Originally posted by halfoldman

Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Republican08

 

I was thinking "black" as to what contains Africanism in the diaspora. Maybe religious blends that become the basis of paranoia, like Voodoo are examples.
What do you consider "regular, fine" people? By what standard do you measure that?
Is that what it takes to become acceptable?
In much of Africa murder, theft and rape are much associated with white colonialism (esp. the Belgian Congo).

For me, regular, is just someone who wakes up everyday (bear is not regular, due to it's hibernation, breaking thus regular law, set by me), dress like the average american, hold a regular paying job, and is a upstanding family person.

That to me, is what regular is...

Fair enough, although much of the planet does not have privilege of living like that (apparently we'd need another 6 planets to sustain the US lifestyle for all). So "regular' is an employed American of any sexuality or race who follows the average gender-based fashions dreamt up by mediocre gay men?

Wow, expecting this to be a big quote.... lol

Really, only six more planets, I'd figure we'd need the whole universe, america is really something else!

Well, they don't have to be employed someone who is just a morally good citizen.

Example, if your gay, that's not morally 'bad' I 'believe' the people who really have a problem with it, are the religious 'fanatics', if you're gay, I highly doubt, you hurt society... in any way...

If your black.... noone really gives a ****.... you're held to the same standards as everyone else.

If I put on eyeliner, wear womens shoes, and a peterpan hat, yeah.... society is going to trash talk the hell out of me! That's society!

Not because i'm white and that's the root cause, no! cause I have no fashion sense!

And if you put on a tshirt that has in big red letters "STOP SNITCHIN', society is gonna think you're a low life, because well, that refers to people calling the cops on murders and drug dealers, which is a threat that someone will kill you for trying to stop them.... society doesn't want that, or a guy in eyeliner and a peterpan hat..... which is really just weird.


I know much of the planet doesn't live like americans, not everyone is morbidly obese and inconsiderate.


I think the main problem is, people see something in gays and different colors, as being just that different...

But people see someone with a different skin color, and go aha, we're not the same, but skin is just an organ, we don't go around looking at people without appendixes and start labeling them as different for the lack of an organ! Which would be a step ahead!

And gays, like boy boy, or girl girl, their different from the majority..... but who cares, what I do to girls in my bed is none of your business, and what gay people do in their beds, again, are none of either of ours business!


We both get cut, we both die, we both believe in stupid ****, we're all just as gullible as the next guy.

But again, we create stereotypes to further our first bias that we're different, and creating these, we go 'aha' see I've created a stereotype, which are always false, to verify the belief that we're all different.

When it'd be so much easier, and better for society, to just say, we're all the same........ and that mother ******* gov't just raised taxes again!!!!

I think the difference between racism and homophobia is that homophobes secretly hate themselves because they have gay propensities. This has been shown in numerous studies, believe it or not.

On the other hand, racists are just racist. They're not secretly wanting to be the race they hate. (or maybe they are, what do I know. )

Btw, both groups (racists/homophobes) are miserable people, dissatisfied with life, and looking for a scape goat to blame for their own problems. Not all that different from how the Nazis felt about Jews.

Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by halfoldman

Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Republican08

 

I was thinking "black" as to what contains Africanism in the diaspora. Maybe religious blends that become the basis of paranoia, like Voodoo are examples.
What do you consider "regular, fine" people? By what standard do you measure that?
Is that what it takes to become acceptable?
In much of Africa murder, theft and rape are much associated with white colonialism (esp. the Belgian Congo).

For me, regular, is just someone who wakes up everyday (bear is not regular, due to it's hibernation, breaking thus regular law, set by me), dress like the average american, hold a regular paying job, and is a upstanding family person.

That to me, is what regular is...

Fair enough, although much of the planet does not have privilege of living like that (apparently we'd need another 6 planets to sustain the US lifestyle for all). So "regular' is an employed American of any sexuality or race who follows the average gender-based fashions dreamt up by mediocre gay men?

Wow, expecting this to be a big quote.... lol

Really, only six more planets, I'd figure we'd need the whole universe, america is really something else!

Well, they don't have to be employed someone who is just a morally good citizen.

Example, if your gay, that's not morally 'bad' I 'believe' the people who really have a problem with it, are the religious 'fanatics', if you're gay, I highly doubt, you hurt society... in any way...

If your black.... noone really gives a ****.... you're held to the same standards as everyone else.

If I put on eyeliner, wear womens shoes, and a peterpan hat, yeah.... society is going to trash talk the hell out of me! That's society!

Not because i'm white and that's the root cause, no! cause I have no fashion sense!

And if you put on a tshirt that has in big red letters "STOP SNITCHIN', society is gonna think you're a low life, because well, that refers to people calling the cops on murders and drug dealers, which is a threat that someone will kill you for trying to stop them.... society doesn't want that, or a guy in eyeliner and a peterpan hat..... which is really just weird.


I know much of the planet doesn't live like americans, not everyone is morbidly obese and inconsiderate.


I think the main problem is, people see something in gays and different colors, as being just that different...

But people see someone with a different skin color, and go aha, we're not the same, but skin is just an organ, we don't go around looking at people without appendixes and start labeling them as different for the lack of an organ! Which would be a step ahead!

And gays, like boy boy, or girl girl, their different from the majority..... but who cares, what I do to girls in my bed is none of your business, and what gay people do in their beds, again, are none of either of ours business!


We both get cut, we both die, we both believe in stupid ****, we're all just as gullible as the next guy.

But again, we create stereotypes to further our first bias that we're different, and creating these, we go 'aha' see I've created a stereotype, which are always false, to verify the belief that we're all different.

When it'd be so much easier, and better for society, to just say, we're all the same........ and that mother ******* gov't just raised taxes again!!!!

Well we can talk more specifically on America, or even South Africa, but that's not the current thread. Also I can only listen then and not comment, but yeah it's something we have to mediate on an international forum like this all the time. I mean with topics like this we are really going for a common denominator(s).
Considering that threads on homophobia almost never fail (for at least 2 pages) some people care very deeply.
To go back to my original OP intro, lets for example go to the topic of racism/homophobia and illness. When Aids was first recognized in the US both the black (esp. Haitian) and gays were blamed, and the Moral Majority had posters reading: "Aids: it kills all the right people!"
If you were sick or dying you didn't have to dress or act a certain way. Mainstream America was glad to see one go.

reply to post by Kaytagg

Strange, you know that internalized hatred is not unique to homophobes.
some of the biggest anti-Semites were of Jewish descent (by no means all): Torquemada, allegedly even Hitler and Amedinejad (forgive spellings-you know who I mean).
My mom is also reading a book on slavery in the US, and she told me how the owners raped the slave women until some were superficially white, and these people were blackmailed until recently (maybe still today).

I´ll give you a unique metaphysical take on this whole thing you probably wont normally read in discussions like this:

Before a soul incarnates, it chooses which colour and sex and sexual-preference it wants to be, in accordance with the karmic lessons it wishes to learn. If it chooses to be black or homosexual it can either do so in a "poor-victim-me" mode and thereby begin attracting homophobes and racists into his/her life or it can maintain a positive energy frequency and thereby never attract racists and homophobes into his and her life.

An example of people who were both black AND homosexual and did not succumb to the "poor-victim-me" paradigm, are some of the the black DJs who invented house-music in Chicago and Detroit.

Of course, 90% of the general population and 99% of the "poor-victim-me" crowd are completely unaware of how energy works and will therefore continue to whine and complain on either side of the fence.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

Does that only go for a "blame the victim" scenario, or are the victimizers also learning Karmic lessons (which they will have to equal out Karmically in another life).
But you do have a point, witnessing the victimization of others and being victimized makes me realize how complicit and guilty I am. Usually in this Kali Yuga (the age of quarrel and hypocrisy) people apply that wisdom more to animals than people - so great post!

reply to post by halfoldman


Hey, surprised you liked the post

Imo that also goes for the victimizer - he`ll have to balance his karmic checkbook sooner or later.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I´ll give you a unique metaphysical take on this whole thing you probably wont normally read in discussions like this:

Before a soul incarnates, it chooses which colour and sex and sexual-preference it wants to be, in accordance with the karmic lessons it wishes to learn. If it chooses to be black or homosexual it can either do so in a "poor-victim-me" mode and thereby begin attracting homophobes and racists into his/her life or it can maintain a positive energy frequency and thereby never attract racists and homophobes into his and her life.

An example of people who were both black AND homosexual and did not succumb to the "poor-victim-me" paradigm, are some of the the black DJs who invented house-music in Chicago and Detroit.

Of course, 90% of the general population and 99% of the "poor-victim-me" crowd are completely unaware of how energy works and will therefore continue to whine and complain on either side of the fence.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Skyfloating]

As much as I disagree with almost all of which you say....

That made insanely good sense.....

I read it with the bias in my mind, but left a little bewildered.

I don't by the metaphysical part of it, but more of the role playing part of it, is quite sagaciously written.

Anyway, good post, star.