Bring Back the Draft?

Originally posted by Wang Tang
It is not "for their own good" it is for the good of our society and country.

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But that viewpoint still undercuts the ideals of individual freedoms.

The way I see it, to move forward in the cause of Liberty requires the total deconstruction of all forms of indoctrination, including "patriotism" (especially in schools), as well as the total deconstruction of implied "social duties" (i.e. taxes, etc.), and above all the complete de-glorification of military culture.

Against.

Sorry for the short post.

Originally posted by Alpha Arietis


The way I see it, to move forward in the cause of Liberty requires the total deconstruction of all forms of indoctrination, including "patriotism" (especially in schools), as well as the total deconstruction of implied "social duties" (i.e. taxes, etc.), and above all the complete de-glorification of military culture.

That has already happened. I come from a high school where people regularly don't recite the pledge. I come from a high school where I am 1 of 2 people in my 300 person class going into the military. Patriotism is gone after the Iraq War. The de-glorification of the military was done by Iraq and Guantanamo Bay. I am not going into the military in the name of patriotism or military glory. I am going into the military because it is the last respectable institution in America, although it is not viewed that way because of the way it is used by the government.

And as for social duties, they are required. If you want to be a part of American society, you will pay taxes, you will vote, and you will be educated. That is expected of you.

reply to post by Wang Tang


I agree that in it's idealized form the military is a respectable institution. I also agree that our leaders are misusing their military authority.

Every war and conflict America has participated in since WW2 has been about profit. Banks and Oil Cartels and multi-national corporations are behind these evils. America's wars have nothing to do with defending liberty these days.

Forcing kids to comply with these evils is in itself evil.

If one chooses to serve in the military, they should certainly have the liberty to do so. But it should be a choice.

reply to post by Alpha Arietis


Ok I see where our disagreement is. We both agree that a military man has morally good values and is a respectable person, but they are just used and abused by the higher powers.

You say people shouldn't be forced to serve because they are being forced to serve a government that they don't necessarily agree with.

I say people should be forced to serve so they can serve a government that they don't necessarily agree with. Let me explain.

If every person in America spent time in the military they would become more mature and more disciplined and morally better people, that we agree on. They would also have to learn to obey orders that they don't necessarily agree on, and they will have to serve causes that they believe are wrong. I say this is a good thing.

If every person in America served a cause they knew was wrong, wouldn't they do something about it after they get out of the military? They would be sick of the bs they dealt with in the military and they would feel guilty, so wouldn't they want to fix the bs? And if every person in America deals with the same bs, people will be able to unite and get rid of the bs. People will come out of service wanting to change America.

With college kids, you get a bunch of intelligent people who have no reason to care what goes on in the rest of the world and no reason to care about what goes on in the government. But when people have to serve the government, all the sudden people will start caring about what happens in the government.

reply to post by Wang Tang


I see what you're saying and it's an interesting point.

But what may be good for one person may not be good for every person. The U.S. is about diversity. And Liberty is the main ideal that the U.S. stands for. (It has missed the mark in many areas but we're a work in progress.)

I believe that forcing citizens to do anything against their will is directly contrary to the ideals of freedom and liberty.

Originally posted by Alpha Arietis
And Liberty is the main ideal that the U.S. stands for. (It has missed the mark in many areas but we're a work in progress.)

False statement. Liberty is the main ideal you stand for. The U.S. doesn't seem to stand for liberty at all.

Originally posted by Wang Tang

Originally posted by Alpha Arietis
And Liberty is the main ideal that the U.S. stands for. (It has missed the mark in many areas but we're a work in progress.)

False statement. Liberty is the main ideal you stand for. The U.S. doesn't seem to stand for liberty at all.

The U.S. certainly doesn't SEEM to stand for liberty, does it? However...

as the Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".

reply to post by Alpha Arietis


Yes theoretically our country promotes liberty. Our country was also founded on the philosophy of reason. But today our country is governed more by ignorance than reason... that is why this site exists, to deny the widespread ignorance that exists in this country and in the world. George Washington said in his farewell address to stay away from a 2 party system, and look at our problems with the 2 party system now. Corruption, partisan politics, inability for the rise of a 3rd party... Just saying, the values that the founders had in mind are for the most part not being put into practice today, and the same goes for liberty. If you believe in the founding fathers, and you believe that our country should promote liberty, my question for you is,

what is the next step to liberty for America?

does our march to liberty stop when patriotism is erased from schools and the military is un-glorified?

reply to post by Wang Tang


I wouldn't presume to know what the NEXT step to a more pure liberty in our country is. But I do know that mandatory conscription is a step backwards.

Perhaps true liberty in a society is unattainable, I don't know.

As for patriotism, I think it's healthy if defined as "pride in the ideals our country was founded on" and is rooted in an individual's genuine belief system, as opposed to a doctrinal "patriotism for patriotism's sake" which is dangerous and contributes to a blind "herd mentality" that is frankly cultish.

As for the glorification of military culture, it's as old as civilization, itself.
But it is easily abused and twisted by leaders of every generation. Today's world is no different.

I served in the military when I was fresh out of high school so I know a little something about it. I was very young and naive then.

The way I see it now: When the enemy is at the gates ready to rape and pillage my land, I'll be one of the first ones to take up arms to defend my family and friends. This is certainly worthy of glory.

But when our fat piggy leaders are grinding up our kids in the war machine for profit and meanwhile glorifying the culture of "defending liberty" , I can't help but call "bullcrap".

The veils have been lifted. We can see now the true motives behind these unconstitutional wars. To ignore the facts is irresponsible. Those that contribute to bloodshed only have the blood of innocents on their hands. Any glory for this is false.

Originally posted by Alpha Arietis
reply to post by Wang Tang

 

As for patriotism, I think it's healthy if defined as "pride in the ideals our country was founded on" and is rooted in an individual's genuine belief system, as opposed to a doctrinal "patriotism for patriotism's sake" which is dangerous and contributes to a blind "herd mentality" that is frankly cultish.

I really like that definition of patriotism.

But I'm wondering how we get people to realize what the ideals were that our country was founded on.

I'm wondering how we get people to realize that what our country stands for now is not what it was envisioned to stand for.

reply to post by Wang Tang


reply to post by Alpha Arietis


I applaud both of you for your open and honest discussion on this thread. It is refreshing to see two people with opposite viewpoints have a great discussion without the bickering being seen in so many other discussions.

Stars for both of you.

Here is to Liberty and the pursuit thereof.