interesting site on Mormons & Masons...

Bingo.

Just goes to show what an interesting life cycle this supposedly "evil" symbol has experienced.

The pentagram is no more "evil" than a company logo or a portrait of bugs bunny.

Roark,

"Goetia" is to the inverted or corrupted pentagram, as "Theurgy" is to the pentagram. Esoterically speaking, one could say that the inverted pentagram, is NOT a true pentagram, see? The pentagram I wear at times, at other times, the tetragrammetron, is not to be confused with the perverted one that is often worn, or the inverted one that is shown on a website - these are not good!

Do not let yourself get confused... I'll tell you that I am very concerned right now - our friends at the black lodge are working overtime and have done much to confuse rather innocent people. I do not approach this from a simply Christian perspective and I know that a few of these are here, posting on ATS. What I cannot determine and may never know, is whether they are misled fools, or awakened into darkness.

A great majority of the links we shall find, are practicing a form of Gnostic teaching which employs upon the notion that they know much more than "those Nazarenes". I'll tell you this...I am a gnostic more-so than anything of the modern-day church but to be a Bodhivita is a little "too" easy these days. I refer to some of the sweetest and most jenorous people teaching their members how to enter into the darkness of the eighth-sphere in ways which haunt me.

[edit on 8-3-2006 by markusjharper]

wow, this board is brutal sometimes. I was in no way endorsing that website. I am not an Icke believer in any way. that being said, the pictures on that site are legit and that is all I took from the site and tried to discuss. I know close to nothing of the Mormon faith and havent claimed to. never meant to offend anyone with this thread.

my only personal knowledge of anything related to the Mormon's is strange to me. a few years ago there was a Mormon temple built nearby. it was one of the most beautiful buildings I have ever seen. this place had to have cost a fortune to build. to give some background I live in the southern US and the organized churches here are full of self righteous "holy rollers" for lack of a better term. they were furious over the Mormon temple being built in their territory. a few of them who protested this made it inside the temple. the Mormon's were so distraught they tore the temple down and built a new one. this happened only a few months after the original temple was completed.

it seems, from what has been posted, that markusjharper and I are similar in our spirituality. that being said I was raised in a Baptist church and have since taken religion as a personal experience and have no affiliation with any religious organization. I have always been given the impression that the star with the point down was an inversion of a Christian symbol, just like the inverted cross. I call it the baphomet because the official satanic church told me to(the good ole satan made me do it excuse ) I wont claim that this is right or wrong, just what I was taught. I'm not here to argue one side over the other but to learn from the different views and vast knowledge of the ATS crew.

I cant, for the life of me, figure out why so many here want to make assumptions and put words in anothers mouth the way some of these responses have. I understand being passionate about a topic but when someone is asking for understanding is there a need to be so condescending with your response? whatever happened to the concept of sharing knowledge with the, in this case admittedly ignorant souls such as myself? sure I could dig through a bunch of garbage internet sites and find a few credible ones but I would probably end up more screwed up on the subject than I am now. it is with respect & admiration that I ask these questions here. the fact of the matter is there is as much knowledge contained within the minds of this site as the rest of the internet...even if that knowledge is sometimes buried in arrogance. yes, I know you guys have forgotten more than I know about this topic. thats why I ask the questions here! I thank every one of you for taking the time to try and enlighten me but please try to lighten up a little.

sorry for the rant. it just seems every discussion turns into this & its a shame.

Most people would agree that consorting with demons isn't exactly GOOD for you...

All I'm acknowledging is that the pentagram, inverted or not, has represented multiple things throughout history. Goetia is just one of them. It doesn't make the inverted pentagram "evil".

metalmessiah,

I agree with your approach. And please don't stop asking questions or posting links which may shed some light on matters. There is a form of cunning , yet a subtle prohibition called "non-think" opposed on the masses these days and I have no doubt that you can sort of get a glimpse as it were, into the very truth of this by simply reading several of the posters response to your honest approach. Not to mention the fact that 'we' know only too well that "they" are not wanting any more philosophers - unless molded by their own grubby little hands!

Best,
Markusjharper

G'day Metalmessiah. My last post was actually in response to Markus.

You seem like a really sincere and humble guy. I hope you hang around and ask further questions and, in turn, offer your own knowledge for our benefit.

Don't take the "vigourous" nature of the thread too personally. There will always be people who fire-up a little too passionately, others who claim to know everything, and even some who make little to no sense at all.

Hopefully you can sort the wheat from the chaff. It can be challenging!

Roark,

May be it is you, who simply misunderstand. My point is simple: The inverted pentagram invites in negative elementals and to display it on a website is either foolishly naive, or sinister. We don’t seem to be getting anywhere.

All I'm acknowledging is that the pentagram inverted or not, has represented multiple things throughout history. Goetia is just one of them. It doesn't make the inverted pentagram "evil".

You are saying two things here but only one of them is true. Yes, people have used it innocently before in an inverted fashion. So do children use Ouija boards but does that in any way make them any less dangerous? I have already said about this perverted use of the pentagram being an inversion of Divine Man and YES it is always evil - and YES, it does have a negative effect on your etheric bodies; even the physical body.

You fail to take into account the fact that the universe is not only material, and thus it follows same the degeneration of so much of today, you seem to have a hard time understanding that just as fire can still burn the flesh no matter the intention, the corrupted/inverted pentagram attracts evil. You don’t believe me, wear an inverted pentagram around your neck for a few months and see what happens? No excuses.

Now, to be displayed inverted on a website is not ONLY STUPID but it will attract dark elemental-entities that care-not for our own opinions on what we use it for! If you and I were powerful mystics than we could offset the evil; but that's just plain ridiculous anyhow since why would a mystic want to use an inverted divine symbol to work good and thus reduce any effect of negative influence?

These fallen beings do not care about our opinions - they are attracted by laws that have little to do with simple mundane ideas. I hope you understand that the significance of what I am saying far exceeds the ideas you have about people using it for this, or that purpose in the past!

Originally posted by markusjharper
Appak,
I do respect your opinion but I must correct you, as a grave mistake you make in saying that it does not matter which way the pentagram is displayed.
[snip]

markusj,

You make some interesting points, but what you can't seem to get past is that symbols can mean DIFFERENT things to DIFFERENT groups or people. Period. How it's interpreted is up to the USER, not to you or me. There is no big book of symbols that defines what each and every symbol MUST mean.

Certainly the star with one point down has been used to represent the Church of Satan, Lucifer (if you believe there's a lucifer) etc. But it can mean other things.

A triangle within a circle is sometimes used (along with other symbols) for the Royal Arch Degree of Freemasonry, but it's also the symbol (emblem if you will) of Alcoholics Anonymous. Does that make Alcoholics Anonymous a Masonic group? Certainly not. Are all royal arch Masons alcoholics? Certainly not.

The O.E.S. does NOT utilized the star with one point down as a symbol of evil no matter how it may appear to you or others. Fact is if you read the ritual (they're readily available on ebay and amazon.com) it only describes the symbolism of the star as "His star in the East" ....a biblical reference to the Christ.

Further, the O.E.S. in New York doesn't utilized the star with one point down AT ALL. Their star points up, yet it means the same thing as the OES Grand Chapters who's star points down. See what I mean?

-appak

Originally posted by markusjharper
My point is simple: The inverted pentagram invites in negative elementals and to display it on a website is either foolishly naive, or sinister. We don’t seem to be getting anywhere.

Markus,

A symbol in and of itself can neither invite positive or negative elements. That depends on the person who uses the symbol, not the symbol itself.

In the ancient mysteries, the inverted pentagram was simply the symbol of the uninitiated. As you seem to already know, the pentagram is an elemental symbol, and when inverted, it signifies materialism by matter dominating spirit. This is classically the "condition" of the uninitiated masses. The purpose of initiation is, of course, to reverse this condition.

You are saying two things here but only one of them is true. Yes, people have used it innocently before in an inverted fashion. So do children use Ouija boards but does that in any way make them any less dangerous? I have already said about this perverted use of the pentagram being an inversion of Divine Man and YES it is always evil - and YES, it does have a negative effect on your etheric bodies; even the physical body.

Only to those who would employ it with that specific meaning. Again, a symbol itself has no intrinsic worth or power. It is the person who uses the symbol that gives it its power or worth (and meaning).

It's very cool that when people on this board see "anti-so-and-so" stuff on here, they keep an objective mind. It's all too easy to jump on this Anti-Mormon bandwagon and just go along with whatever stuff someone may post. However, on this board, you see a lot of people that make a totally objective response to any criticism that may seem unfounded.

Props to ATS board members.

markusj,

You make some interesting points, but what you can't seem to get past is that symbols can mean DIFFERENT things to DIFFERENT groups or people. Period. How it's interpreted is up to the USER, not to you or me. There is no big book of symbols that defines what each and every symbol MUST mean.

Yes, there are several books and all of them do agree that regardless of the intent; regardless of what the symbol means to you or me, an inverted pentagram still attracts negative forces. The universe is not always consistent with our better intentions, see?

Certainly the star with one point down has been used to represent the Church of Satan, Lucifer (if you believe there's a lucifer) etc. But it can mean other things.

Yes but what is means to you or me is irrelevant. What it means to the intangible forces is that which concerns me most of all and those who would call themselves esoteric and use this symbol are failing to take this into account - I find this is a strange paradox.

A triangle within a circle is sometimes used (along with other symbols) for the Royal Arch Degree of Freemasonry, but it's also the symbol (emblem if you will) of Alcoholics Anonymous. Does that make Alcoholics Anonymous a Masonic group? Certainly not. Are all royal arch Masons alcoholics? Certainly not.

The symbol can be used in this way - no negative forces are connected with using an inverted triangle. But let's not get confused, as I only speak on the corrupted pentagram.

The O.E.S. does NOT utilized the star with one point down as a symbol of evil no matter how it may appear to you or others. Fact is if you read the ritual (they're readily available on ebay and amazon.com) it only describes the symbolism of the star as "His star in the East" ....a biblical reference to the Christ.

Already explained above about the intention but to claim something does it mean that it is true? If the star is used correctly - it means divine man and to claim that the inverted star means "Christ’s' Star" is making a big mistake.

Further, the O.E.S. in New York doesn't utilized the star with one point down AT ALL. Their star points up, yet it means the same thing as the OES Grand Chapters who's star points down. See what I mean?

Again, their intent is not what is at stake here. The inconsistency is not an issue here. The forces that come into play (can be affected) but nonetheless, do not care about our intent in connection to a corrupted symbol.

markusjharper


[edit on 9-3-2006 by markusjharper]

A symbol in and of itself can neither invite positive or negative elements. That depends on the person who uses the symbol, not the symbol itself.

ML,

If we place the Greater point of a pentagram at the door entrance of a bedroom, it will allow into the room dark forces. You place the point in toward the room, to keep them out. I know the person can have a huge impact on the symbols power but that has to do with intensity and not so much the essence or nature.

In the ancient mysteries, the inverted pentagram was simply the symbol of the uninitiated. As you seem to already know, the pentagram is an elemental symbol, and when inverted, it signifies materialism by matter dominating spirit. This is classically the "condition" of the uninitiated masses. The purpose of initiation is, of course, to reverse this condition.

I think you are correct about the materialist being more Satanic - as that is sort of the essence. But you never display an inverted pentagram to the uninitiated. Instead we would use the pentagram correctly and work with their various bodies and try and keep them as far away from materialism, including avoiding the use of the corrupted pentagrams.

Only to those who would employ it with that specific meaning. Again, a symbol itself has no intrinsic worth or power. It is the person who uses the symbol that gives it its power or worth (and meaning).

Once more, the person's will power can have an influence but that does not change the nature of the inverted pentagram. It is always evil - no matter the intent. If you still don't believe, me than I would ask you to find me one use of the inverted pentagram which is unselfish? Can you find it being used in accordance with divine law – that of "Theurgy” and NOT of "Goetia"?

Originally posted by markusjharper
Yes, there are several books and all of them do agree that regardless of the intent; regardless of what the symbol means to you or me, an inverted pentagram still attracts negative forces. The universe is not always consistent with our better intentions, see?

markusj,

Sorry. I thought we were talking about the symbol and what it actually *means* I didn't realize this was a discussion of "negative forces."

One would have to believe in negative (or positive) "forces" i.e. be superstitious to discuss this and I don't and I'm not.

Sorry for wasting your time.

-Appak

[edit on 9-3-2006 by Appak]

Originally posted by markusjharper

If we place the Greater point of a pentagram at the door entrance of a bedroom, it will allow into the room dark forces.

Markus, symbols don't allow any forces, only people do. If you haven't realized that, I'd suggest starting back with Square One. A symbol is only a thing created by man. Without man to give it meaning, it is lifeless and useless.

I think you are correct about the materialist being more Satanic - as that is sort of the essence. But you never display an inverted pentagram to the uninitiated. Instead we would use the pentagram correctly and work with their various bodies and try and keep them as far away from materialism, including avoiding the use of the corrupted pentagrams.

There is nothing inherently wrong with an inverted pentagram, nor do I see why they should not be displayed to the uninitiated (and even if you tried to conceal it from them, they'd accuse you of keeping all sorts of evil secrets from them; perhaps this can help you understand the plight of the Masonic Adepts, whose motto could be "Damned if we do, damned if we don't"). The inverted pentagram simply represents man in his natural state. The goat head recalls Pan, the Greek god of the fields, signifying nature and animal instinct.

The inverted pentagram is "evil" only because it represents materialism. It doesn't represent demons or dark forces, it just represents people as they are by nature, who focus on the material instead of the spiritual. This is why it has always been the Sign of the Uninitiated.



[edit on 9-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

markusj,

Sorry. I thought we were talking about the symbol and what it actually *means* I didn't realize this was a discussion of "negative forces."

One would have to believe in negative (or positive) "forces" i.e. be superstitious to discuss this and I don't and I'm not.

Sorry for wasting your time.

-Appak

Dear Apak,

There is no need to apologize - you did not waste any time and I appreciate what you had to say. But as for superstitions….I do not believe in them but I am also not a huge eater of the earth. The greatest black magicians are not here to convince anyone of black magic - on the contrary, they do as what Karl Marx did in bringing us down into mundane materialism, while they practice in secret - and they know what I am saying is true.



[edit on 9-3-2006 by markusjharper]

ML,

I asked you "Can you find it being used in accordance with divine law – that of "Theurgy” and NOT of "Goetia"?"

Just because something is made up of matter, it in no way means it is dead. Alchemy, understands that metals are not dead, either.