Ireland Bans Blasphemy

reply to post by ziggystrange


i agree with you whole heartedly on that , the irish have the filthiest mouths on the planet . i lived there for two years and even though i have worked in the construction industry all my life i was shocked to hear them talk . they can not utter a sentence with out effing this or effing that.
so as for the new law i think it will be totally ignored .

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Well i suppose friend of a friend is a better term

What i mean is basically being overheard making a joke could end up with you in court. At least the law seems open to that situation.

Come on now.. that is a bit ridiculous.

I do realize that this is a conspiracy site and all but I have lived in Ireland for the past 25 years and must point out that it is a democratic republic with freedoms of expression and speech protected by both the Irish and EU constitutions. Do you think we have a fashion police to go with our Joke police as well

This law is simple and it is basic in its creation and usage..

A journalist/extremist/islamophobe etc etc cannot use widespread media to make derogatory, insulting generalizations about a race/religion etc

Ie. If I take out an ad in one of our major newspapers saying that the Muslim religion is an evil, old fashioned and violent one, that Chinese people smell or that Hitler was right in trying to wipe out the Jewish race.. then I will be in court for defamation of a religion & get a pretty serious fine.

If I say it to a few friends, a cop, a judge or anyone else.. I will not be cited because it is not widespread. If I write a blog that is hosted on Irish servers about how Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Nigerians, Kenyans etc are all dirty bastids.. then I can be done.

If I crack a racist joke.. Im not saying it directly to offend the subject of the joke. Simple as.

Irish people are in no way Politically correct, its not in our nature and we would prefer to make jokes about taboo subjects in order to lighten the mood surrounding the topics..

That is why this law will do only what it is supposed to.. Stop haters getting airtime.

That is why this law will do only what it is supposed to.. Stop haters getting airtime.

OMG that was so funny.
this is like almost bumper sticker funny.
has a law EVER done what it was supposed to and nothing else?
never been misused?

Wow, society is getting to be more and more like the movies.

Remember Sylvester Stallone in "The Demolition Man" with the credit machine.



[edit on 3-1-2010 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by the_grand_pooh-bah


Do you have a point?

If it's misused, it can be brought to EU court which supercedes Irish courts in all things to do with rights. This law has been passed for how long now? And noone has been done with it? Why? Because it there to do exactly what I said.

the point is its a large step in the wrong direction.

freedom of speech means having to listen to things you don't like sometimes.
laws are dangerous and we should have as few as necessary.

if their god can't take a joke he's not all that now is he?
kinda a half-arsed deity at best.

so i'm not in ireland,if someone reads this on a screen in ireland will interpol put a black mark on my permanent record?

the fact it hasn't been used yet is irrelevant,its a new weapon in governments hands against opinions some don't like.
first they will be able to destroy your life then you can take it up in EU court?



[edit on 2-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]

Originally posted by Dermo
This law is simple and it is basic in its creation and usage..

A journalist/extremist/islamophobe etc etc cannot use widespread media to make derogatory, insulting generalizations about a race/religion etc

Ie. If I take out an ad in one of our major newspapers saying that the Muslim religion is an evil, old fashioned and violent one, that Chinese people smell or that Hitler was right in trying to wipe out the Jewish race.. then I will be in court for defamation of a religion & get a pretty serious fine.

Now how far does that stretch? For example the bus adverts in London said "theres probably now god, now enjoy youre life" or something to that effect. Christians were outraged as were some Muslims. If this happened in Ireland would this law be applied?

Secondly what if i write an article detailing the abuses of a religion, be it a systemic abuse of children, recuitment of susceptible people as suicide bombers or the harrassment of abortion doctors. Would this be considered deformation?

You see this is the problem, freedom of speech should be allowed in all media and you can say whatevre you choose, as long as you do not incite violence. Really simple to apply law compared to this new one. So if someone posted something in a paper saying "Jews need to die or jews are responsible for the banking crisis" then it would be easy to see how these could be inciting violence.

Originally posted by Dermo
If I say it to a few friends, a cop, a judge or anyone else.. I will not be cited because it is not widespread. If I write a blog that is hosted on Irish servers about how Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Nigerians, Kenyans etc are all dirty bastids.. then I can be done.

That is why this law will do only what it is supposed to.. Stop haters getting airtime.

Why? Again why cannot someone air their views? For example if i air a view that creationism is utterly stupid and is being driven by a Christian right and i put that on a blog then should i be arrested? This could easily be stretched to deformation.

if their god can't take a joke he's not all that now is he?
kinda a half-arsed deity at best.

so i'm not in ireland,if someone reads this on a screen in ireland will interpol put a black mark on my permanent record?

And who exactly would you have offended with that statement? While people in whatever country you are in might get offended with that.. people have been blowing other people up over religion in this country for centuries.. we're a bit more tough skinned than that. Whereas if you were English and called me a Catholic Irish pig.. then I might give you a second look.. I don't expect you to understand but its more about the reasoning than the subject.

If you were a journalist and wrote a column saying that all Irish catholics are Pope loving scumbags who have no personal hygiene or Muslims are inbred rapists.. you would undoubtedly find yourself with a court appearance having to prove what you said.. and rightly so IMO. If you can't prove it.. you get the fine/sentance.

A key point is that you commit WIDESPREAD intentional and public defamation of a person, creed or race by voicing your bias opinion which is only opinion and not fact.

People sue for defamation in the US and other countries.. we don't have a suing culture so there is a fine instead.

And I don't like this law or many laws but I do understand it.. and I would prefer people realized exactly what it is before fantasizing about insane ways it will be used to gag us all while we are locked in our homes during some crazy martial law while the New World Order rapes our wives and daughters.

That is why I am wasting my time explaining it to people who obviously want to see it as something that it is not.

Anyway.. Im not one for religion but Im also definitely not one for people who insult religious for being religious. That actually makes me sick..

But then again, we don't have to put up with the hardcore religious nut jobs that hang around North America.. I would probably be of a different opinion if I did. Our religious nutjobs are relatively quiet.

first they will be able to destroy your life then you can take it up in EU court?

As I said.. if you want to go out and publicly and intentionally insult half of the country or some ethnic minority for what ever petty reason.. then maybe you deserve to have your life ruined.

If they make a mistake and it has to go to the EU courts.. then you will probably get a nice settlement from the Irish taxpayer for your trouble.. Either way.. I don't really care.

If you want to think that slagging off God will get you jail in my country.. work away. I know for a fact that it will not.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Now how far does that stretch? For example the bus adverts in London said "theres probably now god, now enjoy youre life" or something to that effect. Christians were outraged as were some Muslims. If this happened in Ireland would this law be applied?

How is that insulting a religion, person or race? "Probably" leaves that open to interpretation and therefore cannot be deemed as an insult.

Secondly what if i write an article detailing the abuses of a religion, be it a systemic abuse of children, recuitment of susceptible people as suicide bombers or the harrassment of abortion doctors. Would this be considered deformation?

No.. that is reporting. Not an attempt at insulting a creed, race or person. You are misinterpreting many of the legal aspects that surround this law. If you had said that "All muslims are terrorists", "All priests are child molesters" etc.. then you would face court where you would be given the chance to prove what you had written IF ENOUGH COMPLAINTS HAD BEEN MADE IN ORDER TO BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE LAW.. If you could not, then you get the fine.

Why? Again why cannot someone air their views? For example if i air a view that creationism is utterly stupid and is being driven by a Christian right and i put that on a blog then should i be arrested? This could easily be stretched to deformation.

You are blowing it out of proportion to a large extent.

We do think differently to many other countries.. Im almost certain that this law hasn't even been directed at anyone yet.. When/If it ever does.. it will be very public.

And yes.. it is possible that someone could attempt to bring another person to court over trivial insults like the above BUT there are a lot of legal fail safes in our justice system in order to ensure rights are upheld.

Its Ireland, not China

That's not saying that things cannot be blown out of proportion by those 'over the top' people we all dislike. As I said, i don't like this law.. or many others.. But I do understand it.

PS.. noone can prove or disprove creationism so how can you be done for saying it is a stupid idea.

If you said that "All people who believe in Creationism are stupid" - that might turn some heads. If you said it in a pretty large public newspaper, you would be asking for a bit of trouble and if you kept screaming it on one of the major news channels, then you would get done through the law in question if enough complaints are made.

[edit on 2/1/10 by Dermo]

Originally posted by Dermo
No.. that is reporting. Not an attempt at insulting a creed, race or person. You are misinterpreting many of the legal aspects that surround this law. If you had said that "All muslims are terrorists", "All priests are child molesters" etc.. then you would face court where you would be given the chance to prove what you had written IF ENOUGH COMPLAINTS HAD BEEN MADE IN ORDER TO BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE LAW.. If you could not, then you get the fine.

Ok so what if a comedian says that all priests are paedophiles or simply infers it during a routine? Don't you see the very dangerous grey arae here? You can say whatever you like but i'm all for free speech as long as it does not physically harm or incite physical harm. So you know what, if someone wants to say that all priests are paedophiles then go for it, i don't agree but i will suppor ttheir right to say it. Same as if someone wants to say that all atheists are eugenics freaks, again i disagree and i will, using freedom of speech voice my disagreement. I won't however seek legal action.

Originally posted by Dermo

You are blowing it out of proportion to a large extent.

No i am simply recognising what i consider a slippery slope and i am a rather rabid advocate of free speech. As much as you may believe that you are for free speech i'm afraid this is not true. The whole point of free speech is that you might just hear something you don't want to, somethig really offensive to your sensibilites.

Originally posted by Dermo
PS.. noone can prove or disprove creationism so how can you be done for saying it is a stupid idea.

Without turning this into a creationist debate, all of the arguments presented for the creationist theory have been refuted. When i say creationism i do not simply mean the idea that a god set us on the road, i mean the teaching of a theory which pretends to be scientific, misrepresents evidence and happily makes stuff up.

Originally posted by Dermo
If you said that "All people who believe in Creationism are stupid" - that might turn some heads. If you said it in a pretty large public newspaper, you would be asking for a bit of trouble and if you kept screaming it on one of the major news channels, then you would get done through the law in question if enough complaints are made.

Quite simply why? Why can i not hold the opinion and voice it? A belief is fair game, whether it is religious, political, or anything else. Comedians make their living off of mocking all of these things in a very public setting. How many times have you heard a comedian say "Now ladies i am not being mean but........" the comedian then goes on to mock an entire gender, generalising about it. So why can the same thing not be applied to religion?

Seriously, anyone should have the absolute right to hold an opinion and voice that opinion whether publicly or privately so long as they do not incite violence.

[edit on 2-1-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I do get what you are saying.. there is a grey area there but many of us feel that generalized insults do have the habit of causing more problems than they are worth.

As I said, Im obviously pro freedom of speech and I don't agree with that law or many others but our history has much sadness and violence to do with religion.. many obviously feel that loudmouths inciting religious hate shouldn't be allowed a platform anymore.

What I am saying about the grey area is that we are an easy going people.. I would be very surprised to see anyone being prosecuted through that law for anything other than blatant hate speech... and not too many of them being done either.

And to be completely fair, this has been blown waaaay out of proportion by a huge amount of people in this thread.

Re: The creationism thing.. Catholics like myself (non practicing lol) were always taught evolution when we were young so creationism is alien to me. What I am saying is that as much as we may think we know about the universe... there is no definitive proof of either at the moment and if it is a religious belief.. it is protected.. no matter how insane it may seem to some of us.

Under this law in Ireland, you can insult the idea.. just not the people who believe it.. Because that is slander of sorts through defamation.. and the people on the receiving end of the slanderous remarks are protected by laws saying lies cannot be spread about them.

Anyway.. we could go on about this for aaages without really going anywhere

I do completely understand your perspective.. its just that I also understand the perspectives of the people who agree with this law and while I don't support it, our country is fragile in regards Religion and even though jokes are made about everything.. when people become serious, things need to be tip toed around at times. i

Originally posted by Dermo
I do get what you are saying.. there is a grey area there but many of us feel that generalized insults do have the habit of causing more problems than they are worth.

As I said, Im obviously pro freedom of speech and I don't agree with that law or many others but our history has much sadness and violence to do with religion.. many obviously feel that loudmouths inciting religious hate shouldn't be allowed a platform anymore.

Generalized insults are bad so we must outlaw them? Seriously all this kind of action does is breed hatred. If someone tells me i cannot say something, i immediately resent that person or government. No one has a right to duct tape my mouth shut with legislation. No one has a right to not be offended, they do however have the right to respond to offensive speech with their own views. It's basic debate, you don't like something i say? Then destroy my argument and i will try my best to counter and in the process we may either offend each other some more or possibly come to at least a peaceful agreement to disagree

Originally posted by Dermo
What I am saying about the grey area is that we are an easy going people.. I would be very surprised to see anyone being prosecuted through that law for anything other than blatant hate speech... and not too many of them being done either.

And to be completely fair, this has been blown waaaay out of proportion by a huge amount of people in this thread.

Do you understand why it is being held up as such a big issue? Do you understand the mindset behind it? It is because some of us recognise that any disruption of free speech is bad because it can lead to more restrictions. In fact te shutting down of free speech is often the first step in a dictatorship.

Now don't get me wrong here i am not saying Ireland is going to turn into a dictatorship, however to stand by and allow even the first stages to be implemented is not on. It is best to crush such things before they even get started and ensure freedom of expression.

Originally posted by Dermo
Re: The creationism thing.. Catholics like myself (non practicing lol) were always taught evolution when we were young so creationism is alien to me. What I am saying is that as much as we may think we know about the universe... there is no definitive proof of either at the moment and if it is a religious belief.. it is protected.. no matter how insane it may seem to some of us.

I am simply against it being taught as an alternative to evolution in a science class. Please feel free for the argument to be made ina religious class or a private religious school. Do not however provide false evidence, blatant lies and the other tactics that are used.

I don't believe in god but i am quite happy for someone to teach in a religion class the creationist idea, really that doesn't bother me.

Originally posted by Dermo
Under this law in Ireland, you can insult the idea.. just not the people who believe it.. Because that is slander of sorts through defamation.. and the people on the receiving end of the slanderous remarks are protected by laws saying lies cannot be spread about them.

Anyway.. we could go on about this for aaages without really going anywhere

Slander laws are designed more for the protection of a specific individual or business. While there are cases that have applied it in broader terms they are not as common. If we allow these laws to be used in such a way then you can say goodbye to standup comedy. As i said and you agreed there is a grey area and as long as it exists this law should be repealed.

Originally posted by Dermo
I do completely understand your perspective.. its just that I also understand the perspectives of the people who agree with this law and while I don't support it, our country is fragile in regards Religion and even though jokes are made about everything.. when people become serious, things need to be tip toed around at times. i

I understand the viewpoint of those for this law, i can intellectually get it. However they are not exactly logical in agreeing with it. There are many problems, from the abuses that could/will stem from this, the simple abhorrence i have to the idea of stifling free speech to the slippery slope that can lead to even harsher laws and most importantly of all, the damage to standup comedy!

Woah, woah horsies. Less of the third person references. Believe it are not, us Irish use ATS too.

I have to admit. I didn't see this one coming. Though raised Catholic, I'm highly opposed to any organized religion. The key reason we lost the vote on Lisbon was due to a extreme right wing Catholic group known as Coir. These dinosaurs completely alienated the younger demographic.

Welcome to the Middle Ages again.

Ok i have not read the entire thread, because when someone calls me or my homeland stupid, i tend to take offence. So forgive me if this has been posted already..

So the whole thing came from these paintings

philipbourke.blogspot.com...

I know its a blog website, but this is fact!

The paintings are of our Taoiseach or Prime Minister if you like, who incidentally we did not vote in, and i would imagine that the most of the country would like to see the back of him, as in 'Your Fired'

The poor chap can't see the funny side of these paintings and pushes through this law, which i cannot see any Garda/Cop following through on..

I think i just broke a law, come get me, i dare ya!! :-)

reply to post by longwinter


You're trying to be funny i think and i always love comedy (these paintings and their point are very funny) but this topic is a rather serious thing. If this religion law can truly be enforced then free speech has taken a knock it will struggle to recover from.

As someone else said, welcome to the return of the dark ages.

Originally posted by audas
Hello 1423 - gotta love progress.

Morons - every cliche about the Irish came true with that one headline - a great, well loved people are once again the laughing stock of the earth - stupid irish.

The Irish Government passed this law without the consent of the public. Nobody, including the Irish press, approves of this law.
Spokesmen for the Catholic, Protestant, and Islamic faiths have stated that they were'nt consulted by the government on this either, and have refused to comment further.

Making the "stupid Irish" comment simply displays your ignorant attitude for the rest of us to see.

This is an example of governments doing what they like regardless of public opinion.

Originally posted by tom.farnhill
reply to post by ziggystrange

 

i agree with you whole heartedly on that , the irish have the filthiest mouths on the planet . i lived there for two years and even though i have worked in the construction industry all my life i was shocked to hear them talk . they can not utter a sentence with out effing this or effing that.
so as for the new law i think it will be totally ignored .

You must have been in Dublin then.

How about this bit in the law:

Where a defamation action is brought on behalf of an infant
or a person of unsound mind by a next friend or a committee of the
infant or person

What? (the feck - that is not a swear word by the way)!

And here is the full get out clause:

(4) In this section “religion” does not include an organisation or
cult—
(a) the principal object of which is the making of profit, or
(b) that employs oppressive psychological manipulation—
(i) of its followers, or
(ii) for the purpose of gaining new followers.

So that excludes all religions then!

[edit on 15/6/2010 by PuterMan]

To be fair most countries have laws against blasphemy, however case law suggests it is a difficult law to prosecute.

This only needs to go before court to establish case law..

let us hope it is in front of the legend Judge John Neilan

A young Estonian man is up on a charge of petty larceny from a shop. Judge Neilan begins another speech. "There was a Latvian gentleman in Longford a few months ago who was destitute and I asked him did he want to go home instead. I contacted the department and they said there were no resources. Nobody would pay. These offences occur because this man has no resources. If he wants to go home I have no difficulty with that. People are coming from these countries and they quickly fall down."

The judge then enquires if the man wants to go home, and the interpreter replies he doesn't.

"No harm in trying, " the judge says.



.

Irish judge shot in face in courthouse

In 2004, he declared he would immediately jail for one week all those guilty of drink driving while considering a sufficient penalty.

After former Justice Minister Michael McDowell pointed out the constitutional right to bail, the judge said he was withdrawing from hearing drink-driving cases for six months. Work at the judge's court resumed but he continued to have a tense relationship with Mr McDowell.

When asked if he would join the then minister in opening the newly refurbished Longford courthouse, he said: "I wouldn't share the platform with him if he was opening the gates of heaven."

Judge dread




Atheists challenge blasphemy law

Atheist Ireland rang in the new year by posting 25 sacrilegious quotes on its website in the hope of being prosecuted for flouting the blasphemy ban that took effect on January 1.

Michael Nugent, the organisation’s founder, said he plans to challenge the authorities even more directly by sending copies of the “blasphemous” quotes to the Department of Justice, the director of public prosecutions and the garda commissioner this week.

A spokesman for the Department of Justice said that Ahern did not “have the luxury of time to deal with some crackpot sitting in an attic somewhere sending around quotes that are intended to be blasphemous. I would suggest this person spend ¤5 on a copy of Bunreacht na hEireann, which contains the reference to blasphemy being against the law.

reply to post by FirstRonin


Oh yeah?

Here ya go Ireland government;

God does not exist...you use religion as a control and brainwashing tool.

All religious people are either soft, weak or mentally impaired/delusional.

The biblical stories are allegorical accounts stolen from much earlier historical accounts and pagan belief systems.

You lie to your people to solicit money and obedience and you know it.

The whole thing is one of the biggest conjobs ever perpetrated on the human species, and well you know it.

Does that count as blasphemy?

I shall say and write EXACTLY as i want to...the Irish government can go *&!* itself if it thinks it can dictate what i can and cannot say...tossers.