The Illustrated History of MJ-12

Originally posted by Gazrok
[edited]
Sure, but if you believe that, at some point you have to ask the question, "When does the effort simply seem too massive to cease being disinfo, and get closer to what may have happened?" Is it realistic to assume the government and/or military weaved the intricate mythology today of the UFO coverup? And while one could argue that UFOlogists gave a hand....it still just seems to much to be a smoke and mirrors campaign of disinfo.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gazrok]

Ah, something we agree on. Here we have UFOs fleeting all over the place which would make anyone associate "aliens" with them and some people actually think the (U.S. for one) government is the creator of disinfo about UFOs and "aliens." Actually, the governments have no control over the UFO "problem" and they are just as mistified as the rest of us.

Don't have time at the moment to read through this, but one question, how long did it take for all this research?

I had started it a while ago, back in Nov., when I first got the docs on CD. Until then, I've only been able to see partial examples online, or very unclear samples. Been kind of off and on. Most of the credit really goes to the sources for the more hardcore research, more than myself, as I'm just assembling it into a cohesive narrative.

I will have to agree with some of Shrike's assessments on UFO books and authors, though I'm not sure I'd go nearly as high as 99.9%, but it's certainly quite a bit over 50%. Still, that doesn't mean that even a nugget of good information doesn't come out of it. Some of (what I feel to be) my most memorable insights were from reading books that were far more skeptical on the subject of UFO's...

You'll have to excuse my absence from the thread much more tonight though, as getting ready for New Years....(time to spend some time with good friends, good food, and good spirits (Sangria)....)

reply to post by Gazrok


Just one of the too-numerous-to-count nails in the Majestic 12 hoax. Plenty "Moore" (pun) where that came from. Nothing you nor any other believer could convince me of the reality of Majestic dozen. Same category as the Roswell "crash." Bah, humbug!

skepticblog.org...
"Who Wrote the Majestic 12 Papers?
by Brian Dunning, Sep 10 2009
“Majestic 12” is one of the seminal hoaxes of UFO lore. It was supposedly the name of a group of Illuminati who were “in” on the “fact” that UFOs were alien spacecraft, well known to the United States government. A typed letter (established up, down, and sideways as a hoax) purportedly written by President Truman, created the Majestic 12 committee by secret Presidential order. Since then, many “classified” government documents have “appeared” acknowledging the government’s full knowledge of alien visitation. The story of Majestic 12 was broken to the world in 1987 by UFOlogist William Moore, which casts immediate suspicion upon him as the perpetrator; but there are other possible suspects as well.
The late Philip Klass, perhaps the best known of the skeptical UFO investigators, once tried to flush out the author. One of the papers, known as the Cutler/Twining Memo, was in a certain unusual typeface, and Klass reasoned that whoever wrote it probably had authentic government documents from the same period to use as a style guide. He offered a cash reward for any extant examples. Who sprang forward with handy documents to claim the prize? None other than Stanton Friedman. Klass paid him $1000 (probably considering it a bargain), and Friedman’s reputation was permanently stained as a result. Tip to paranormal hoaxers hoping to make a career out of it: Don’t take the bait if you don’t want to be hooked.

Do you have a theory on who was behind the Majestic 12 hoax? I welcome your nominations. Let’s hear it!"

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
I simply was complimenting the amount of time and effort in the presentation and I still think it's an example of what you, I and all members of ATS should strive to do when making a post.

Johnny

JohnnyAnonymous' reply edited for relevance.

When one makes the effort to present information that should be relevant, one should check all possible sources and present a balanced point of view not just one-sided especially on a subject that has no support except from those who want to accept questionable claims.

I Apologize once again to the membership

For some reason you wont let this go.. so I'll just add one last comment to what some may take as a troll attack by you, (and please folks, lets not think that, The Shrike is simply expressing his opinion).

You mention that "one should check all possible sources and present a balanced point of view not just one-sided especially on a subject that has no support except from those who want to accept questionable claims."

Clearly from someone that claims to have floated around the UFO forums from the early years must know that in this subject/field one of the hardest things to do is get a good paper trail, straight answers and credible witnesses to step forward that would all lead to answers that satisfies everyone. Is MJ12 been the subject of much debate and conjecture..? YES.. in fact the first sentence by the original poster is; "The existence of the Majestic 12, MAJIC, or MJ-12 has long been a subject of debate or even ridicule." Further down: "What follows is an attempt to put together a timeline or history of the establishment of this alleged group." No where in any of the original post do I see the poster making claims that what he/she has presented is an absolute fact in fact has added a number of disclaimers thruout..

This field of UFOlogy has so many layers in the onion skin that I doubt we'll ever be able reveal how deep it actually is. It's the ones that claim to know all the answers that I worry the most about, and those that say I shouldn't be paying any attention to "this" or "that" are the ones I ignore because "I" want to make up my "own" mind and not let anyone tell me what is or isn't true regardless of the subject matter. I need to decide that for myself.

And again.. if you would prefer to just have posts with YouTube links rather than well presented posts (regardless if you agree or disagree with the presentation), then yes by all means.. send me your contract for that Bridge you want to sell me..

Johnny

[edit on 12/31/2009 by JohnnyAnonymous]

Great thread OP ! I have been studying the MJ-12 documents for some time particularly those surrounding the Roswell Incident ! Well done for this excellent research and presentation ! S&F

reply to post by The Shrike


Crash at Corona by Stanton Friedman is a good book.
Alien Contact by Timothy Good is another good book.
I'm 100% sure July 1947 was one of the most exciting months
in American history.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I can imagine an MIT Electrical engineer looking at a
microprocessor with about 2 billion transistors in it and just
wondering what in the world is this thing???
Crash at Corona describes what 3 civilians saw when they climbed
through the gash in the side of the spacecraft.
"3 panels spaced apart that were blinking and operating."
It looked like a pie pan that was upside down. - Top Hat -


It was a very busy month for MJ-12.
Boy i wish i was there before the Army arrived.
I probably could have been a big help.
Well, that's an alien from Zeta Reticuli.
That horse hair material you're looking at is called fiber optic cable.


[edit on 31-12-2009 by Eurisko2012]

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
apologies..

I'll repost later..

[edit on 12/31/2009 by JohnnyAnonymous]

I accept your apologies, it's nice to see someone come to their senses!

Not much support here but at least these two members don't buy the bs either.
------------------------
Various replies by SuperSlovak
posted on 31-12-2009 @ 01:10 PM

The FBI has concluded the associated MJ 12 documents are "completely bogus". From what I understand anyway.
------------------------
Various replies by DoomsdayRex
Plus "Excellent point, Shrike. And this may be the reason why we don't have anything on any supposed successors to the program; at the time the MJ documents were "released", it would be possible any supposed successors could have debunked the documents."

Still waiting on anyone to address that the FBI "debunking" only covers one doc, and aside from writing BOGUS with a magic marker, provides no other information in its "investigation"....

As for Bill Moore....

I'm as big a critic of Moore as the next guy...but there are only three Majestic docs for which he is the source...(none of which I used)...

3 out of 55 MAJIC related docs....(not even including many of the other non-Majic docs supplied by Tim Cooper)

www.majesticdocuments.com...

(I say 3, because the one in the National Archives was found by Moore and Shandera, so I'm including it with Moore as a source). And I'll concur that the Cutler/Twining Memo is widely accepted as being "planted" in the archives (and likely by Moore).

Originally posted by The Shrike
...
Not much support here but at least these two members don't buy the bs either.
------------------------
Various replies by SuperSlovak
posted on 31-12-2009 @ 01:10 PM

The FBI has concluded the associated MJ 12 documents are "completely bogus". From what I understand anyway.
------------------------
Various replies by DoomsdayRex
Plus "Excellent point, Shrike. And this may be the reason why we don't have anything on any supposed successors to the program; at the time the MJ documents were "released", it would be possible any supposed successors could have debunked the documents."

Looks like I'm a minority of one then. I think given the history of WW-II and Cold War deception, that it's not out of the question that the extraterrestrial UFO movement is blow-back from the sort of stuff illuminated in this kind of thing:

www.au.af.mil...

And that it's reasonably possible that the documents are bogus, that the FBI is being truthful, but unaware (or unwilling to acknowledge) that other parts of the US government would go as far as forging their own documents a) to see if they turned up in Russia, and b) to create a myth to cover sensitive projects. The FBI would be as much in the dark as anyone else.

If people are talking about UFOs, they aren't worried about the nuclear implications of both the US and USSR flying stuff over each-others airspace.

Edit: Grammar.

[edit on 31-12-2009 by jackphotohobby]

reply to post by Gazrok


Doug and Dave are credited with starting the crop circle fiasco. Now there are hundreds of crop circle makers. Because an originator is not responsible for an escalation doesn't mean that the others are not in on the game. Ah, the green smell of money.

reply to post by Gazrok


If you could find a way to Papoose Lake, Nevada, i think some
people would walk up to you with Majestic printed on their name
tags. A few would have M-16s and they would be pointing them at
you.
Just tell them you got lost. Your GPS battery went dead.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Still waiting on anyone to address that the FBI "debunking" only covers one doc, and aside from writing BOGUS with a magic marker, provides no other information in its "investigation"....

As for Bill Moore....

I'm as big a critic of Moore as the next guy...but there are only three Majestic docs for which he is the source...(none of which I used)...

3 out of 55 MAJIC related docs....(not even including many of the other non-Majic docs supplied by Tim Cooper)

www.majesticdocuments.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------

(I say 3, because the one in the National Archives was found by Moore and Shandera, so I'm including it with Moore as a source). And I'll concur that the Cutler/Twining Memo is widely accepted as being "planted" in the archives (and likely by Moore).

-------------------------------------------------------------
This reminds me of the crop circle strategy.
OK, this Majestic document is a fake. Then therefore ALL Majestic
documents are fake.
-------------------------------------------------
Look over here! This crop circle is fake! This guy right here
even admitted to making it. Then therefore ALL crop circles
must also be a fake. See?

reply to post by The Shrike


Sure, but where is the money here?
These guys aren't rich....

Faking crop circles is just some guys with some rope and boards, and a few hours to kill (and there wouldn't seem to be much money in this either)...

Much different than the kind of effort required to hoax the complete collection of these docs.

I'm averse to just about anything that involves "The Aviary" group members, but I can't help but think there is some basic underlying truth that emerges from the docs.

I said from the get-go that the docs are still highly debated, but my goal was to illustrate the story that emerges in a cohesive place, versus reading through the many pages contained within them....

If you could find a way to Papoose Lake, Nevada, i think some
people would walk up to you with Majestic printed on their name
tags. A few would have M-16s and they would be pointing them at
you.
Just tell them you got lost. Your GPS battery went dead.

Actually, you'll be stopped and arrested long before you get that far, and by that time, you'll be where they can just shoot you. No thanks!


[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gazrok]

thanks a lot for putting this thread together!

i'm definitely gonna have to read it some other time because, well, it's New Year's Eve!!

...and i have to work from 10pm-7am.......

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by The Shrike

 

The FBI investigated the documents, and concluded they were forgeries, based primarily on an opinion rendered by AFOSI, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Opinions among UFO researchers are divided: Some argue the documents may be genuine while others contend they are phony, primarily due to errors in formatting and chronology.

I looked over the 22 pages the FBI wrote BOGUS all over. They don't seem to compare to the 1952 docs I linked to. In addition, this hardly accounts for the other numerous documents that do NOT appear in the FBI's conclusion.

As for the AFOSI, CUFON has a documented response from the FOIA stating the IPU existed, and the files were sent to AFOSI. AFOSI insists they have no such files. The two governmental arms are contradicting each other. One of them is not forthcoming.

Shrike,

Is it your contention that we've never been visited by any alien craft despite the numerous photos, films, witness testimony, and statements of former military personnel? If so, then why would a UFO forum even interest you? Just curious...

I agree, the FBI document is grossly inadequate, by itself, to come to any conclusions. As a matter of fact, there is more direct corroboration, with explaination, than there is grounds to claim the documents debunked.
From the FBI document:

"_________, from OSI, advises that "OPERATION BLUE BOOK" , mentioned on page 4 of the document did exist"pg3

The FBI initially classified the documents as a hoax "Based on the contents of the documents and the manner in which it was discovered"(pg12), which basically means they just assumed the documents were too unbelievable to be true.

However, SSA______ was nonetheless requested to determine any DOD interest.
DOD presentations made to the same SSA_____ "incredibally, tended to buttress a portion of the document"

Another thing:

Originally posted by Gazrok
"Please be advised that the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit of the Scientific and Technical Branch, Counter Intelligence Directorate, Department of the Army, was disestablished during the late 1950’s and never reactivated. All records pertaining to this unit were surrendered to the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) in conjunction with operation "Bluebook”.
We regret that we are unable to be of more assistance concerning this matter."

coupled with

Originally posted by Gazrok
AFOSI denies they have any files related to the IPU

indicates, if not proves outright that the USAF is withholding information. I find it curious that something that didn't exist is able to be "disestablished"
Now, if you look at the FBI document "debunking" of IPU, you'll find that the Army does the exact same thing.

From Director FBI to Dallas:
"The Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Air Force, advised....that the document was fabricated"(pg8)
The Director responded solely on assurances from the USAF. Hmmm.

Subsequently, further enquires from Harry B. Brandon were also directed
to the USAF Office of Special Investigations, and again conclusions were made due to assertions from the USAF. (pg14)

To reiterate, the entire FBI document might as well be a USAF one, as it is the final word in the two seperate enquiries concerning the mj12 documents.
If someone can show me how the FOIA request, which stated "the records pertaining to this unit were sent to AFOSI"-who denied the existence of such files- is fabricated or untrue, I'd be much more inclined to believe the FBI document's conclusions.
foia.fbi.gov...

reply to post by Gazrok


What if you put a big black blanket over your head with an eye hole
and walked really slow at night? Start from the south and just walk
north. According to Google Earth there is plenty of cover.
I'll bet you could get really close.
Start crawling south around 3AM. Don't forget the Sony HQ cam.
You could give the video to the New Bob Lazar movie coming out
starring Matt Damon.

The FBI believing the document was too fantastic to be real kinda makes since to me. As compartmentalized as the government is something of this nature would probably be unknown to most- even the upper echelon of the FBI, CIA, etc. I am not familiar with how the document came to light, but I'm sure security measures back then were'nt as effective as today, in regards to how the memo made it out of a controlled area.
$.02

If the FBI had claimed these documents to be authentic, it would have proven existance of the M-12, and the Roswell crash. The elite went through great lengths to quarentine this truth. And hide it from the public. As long as the human race make decisions based on fear, such as, reverse engineering technology, to create weaponry - The general population will remain in the dark on a truth so explicit.

EDIT: Must include, excellent research OP!

[edit on 31-12-2009 by Paradox.]

[edit on 31-12-2009 by Paradox.]

Great post! You put a lot of effort into making a very plausible case in my opinion so for that I starred and flagged it.

I'm including a quote from Wikipedia and a jpeg which explains one of the most obvious and I think overlooked discrepencies concerning the Roswell incident. As far as I know it isn't at all common for the military to pose for pictures identifying one of their top secret programs. Here it is for all the world to see Project Mogul a top secret experiment. Why couldn't they have just said it was a weather balloon experiment or they were doing some high altitude testing with dummies and it crashed. It's not like the Russians were in possesion of it . Why disclose that it was a top secret experiment at all.


"Air Force reports on the Roswell UFO incident
Main article: Air Force reports on the Roswell UFO incident
In the mid-1990s, the United States Air Force issued two reports which, they said, accounted for the debris found and reported on in 1947, and which also accounted for the later reports of alien recoveries. The reports identified the debris as coming from a top secret government experiment called Project Mogul, which tested the feasibility of detecting Soviet nuclear tests and ballistic missiles with equipment on high-altitude balloons. Accounts of aliens were explained as resulting from misidentified military experiments which used anthropomorphic dummies, accidents involving injured or killed military personnel, and hoaxes perpetrated by various witnesses and UFO proponents.

Gen. Roger Ramey (kneeling) and chief of staff Col. Thomas Dubose posed with weather balloon and radar reflector, July 8, 1947, Fort Worth, Texas."

upload.wikimedia.org...



HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by The Lord and Savior
Come on, a little brain power goes a long way folks.

It certainly does.

I'm going to ask you the same thing that I asked Jocko. Do you understand the contradiction you are making?

Can you just explain the contradiction?
Why beat around the bush? point it out already!