Chronology of Creation in the Bible... it doesn't start in Genesis!

Originally posted by allgoodnamesaretaken
Thank you for a thoughtful and logical response to the people who blindly believe in evolution, the idea that everything has been created from a few billion chemical reactions that randomly produced life.

Something of which you obviously dont understand considering you are a creationist

The Church of Evolution is a faith-based religion that requires tremendous amounts of bias, much like the religion of man-made global warming.

Again, thankyou for proving you do not know anything about the theory of evolution. And religion is just as biased, which you have proven by actually attacking evolution

Good luck withstanding the slings and arrows that will come from the many ATS members who pride themselves on their hatred of God and particularly Christianity.

Normally I wouldnt post on this thread (unlike some atheists I respect peoples religious beliefs), but when someone posts some hypocritical BS like this i feel warranted to say that many religion followers could be considered the most ignorant people in the world.

Im thinking that this post was used to bait athiests and evolutionists

We see what appears to be a parallel situation in Revelation 12:7-9, which describes an attempt by Satan to overthrow God shortly before Christ's return: "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

If Satan did an attempt to overthrow God's position, he must have had a serious believe he could actually do this. So if God is a being who created the whole universe and is the most mighty entity in exsistence, what would Satan be in comparison with God if he really was thinking he had a change to become the creator and ruler of the universe.

This gives me the feeling we are dealing with lesser divine entity's, fighting for ruling a part of the galaxy.
Using supernatural weapons, although a Plasma raygun would be very supernatural for the writers of the bible ;-)

We are not dealing with God's here, but with something else...

reply to post by serbsta


Interesting that in all of these stories is how life came from the water and in some, even God emerged from the water. Those sound suspiciously like scientific explanations where microbial life forms were first in the water, evolved and moved onto land. Not everything came out of course as life diverges to fill available niches. And so there are still fish and other life forms in the oceans as well as deep water creatures that need no sun or oxygen to survive and thrive. One could from that knowledge hypothesize that if the current nitrogen/ oxygen based atmosphere never developed the Earth might still be inhabited. For how long? I have no guess.

Were these stories simplifications of evolutionary science theories for the minds of pre-scientific man? Thus the waters and then the life? Were these hints to what happened and there is still resistance to the teachings? And who would have been there to relate this information in this simplistic form initially?

Isaiah 14:12-14
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God . . . I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High'"

Some believe Isaiah is referring to a Babylonian King and it's 'Son of the morning star', which would be Venus.

Another name for 'Lucifer' (Latin: literally meaning 'light bearing') has not always been associated with the fallen angel, Satan. Originally, it was simply the Roman name of the planet Venus, the 'morning star' that rose just before the sun. ... In Isaiah 14:12, we find the Hebrew phrase, "HeYLeL BeN-ShaCHaR", meaning 'bright son of the morning/dawn' (i.e. 'bright/glowing morning star'). In the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), this was translated as 'Phosphorus' (the Greek name of the morning star), and thence translated 'Lucifer' in the Latin Vulgate bible. Isaiah chapter 14 probably condemns the arrogance of the kings of Babylon who considered themselves glorious as the morning star, yet fell to earth. However, due to a confusion of the passages Isaiah 14:12, Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12:7-10, the name 'Lucifer' became applied to the Devil.

It's funny that one third were cast to earth and we are all here! 6 billion of us!

reply to post by Hemisphere


Yes, it is interesting. There is so much life in water. Enki is very interesting to me. Enki comes from his watery home the Apzu or Apsu. I've seen it spelled both ways and he was also known as EA. I'm not so sure the serpent in the Garden of Eden isn't Enki. Have you ever wondered why 'the gods' would turn away Adam and Eve lest they become one of them? Strange. "We are made in God's image" comes straight from the ancient Sumerian writings.

reply to post by Hemisphere and post by Safandjaro


Yup, it is interesting. The ancient Sumerians believed that their Gods came from an abyss of water and actually have many images depicting it. They've said that their Gods came to and fro regularly via this water. So if all these different civilizations (who didn't talk to each other) agree that God came from water and then man was created, then my hypothetical question is: "What is this water and what were we created for?" It might be an interesting read for you guys to check out the Stargate thread by Undo.

The other interesting thing is that there is written evidence by the ancient Sumerians that there was a sky battle among their Gods. It is also hypothesised that the Sumerians didn't write anything that wasn't true because the written language was so new and they wanted to chronicle their lives in hopes that future generations would learn from them.

Check out the Epic of Gilgamesh for more info.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by digifanatic]

reply to post by Locoman8


I would argue the passages in Isaiah are taken out of context and no such being known as Lucifer appears in the Bible.

Instead Isaiah is referring to a king of Babylon by the title Helel Ben Shachar. The entire chapter in context tells of the song that one day the Jews will sing of the fall of the king of Babylon,

Isaiah 14:3-4

"And it shall come to pass in the day that the L-RD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say..."

Isaiah 14:7:

"The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing."

Helel, king of Babyon, is clearly killed in the chapter.

Isaiah 14:12:

"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. "

It calls Helel, king of Babylon, a human.

Isaiah 14:16:

"They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; "

Helel won't even be buried properly and his children will be slaughtered.

Isaiah 14:19-22:

"But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

For I will rise up against them, saith the L-RD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the L-RD."

Chapter 14 is primarily a prophecy about the fall of Babylon. It may even be apocalyptic, but what it is not is a chapter about Satan or primordial events.

The name Lucifer is a Latin name for a Roman god. It was only used as a translation of Helel.

In regards to the Satan's (the one from the Book of Job) name, it is not revealed in the Bible. In ancient Jewish lore, the name is said to be Samael.

The seven headed and ten horned dragon from Revelation 12 is called a deceiver and accuser. It needs to be clarified that this figure represents more than one being. This is clearly an entire "spritual" empire or kingdom. Like the heads and horns of the Beast rode by "Babylon", the heads and horns represent powers and principalities.

Compare Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Compare Daniel 10:13

"But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia."

Compare Daniel 10:20-21

"So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

The powers and principalities that rule over all of the nations, except Israel, are "The Dragon". Michael is the only Prince who struggles against the Dragon. Rev 12 is the prophetic climax of that struggle, with Michael defeating the Dragon. In some Jewish lore, Samael, is said to be the most powerful of the "Princes" being Prince of Rome.





[edit on 30/12/09 by MikeboydUS]

Great job of pulling the time line together. I would like to add that satan is also referred to as the "prince of the power of the air". This said if you look in Genesis Chapter 1 and the days of creation God always ended each day with "it was good" on all days except the day He created the firmament or the air surrounding the earth (Genesis 1:6, 1:7, 1:8). Interesting that God did not find that part of creation good.

Very good investigation of the Bible, thanks for bringing my favorite book to ATS. Everything we need to know is in there. All 100% true.

Flag & star for sure.

This is not a new view. It was a view held by the early church fathers and is detailed in the Clementine Epistles. There is a hierarchy within the demonic realm, what are commonly referred to as demons are in fact the previous inhabitants of the earth. Again, this history and hierarchy is laid out in the epistles.

This view has fallen out of favor with the church for whatever reason, but enjoyed a minor resurgence with the works of G.H. Pember who wrote extensively on the different earth ages in the latter part of the 19th century. It's a shame, but churches continue to balk at scientific evidence which could be used to bolster their position in favor of promoting a tenuous viewpoint of the world. If they spent half as much energy correlating evidence as they do at debunking it, they might gain a few ears.

Although we rarely agree on Bible issues, this is actually a very good thread. I enjoyed it. Nice work

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Onboard2 covered the Lucifer being a king of Babylon a few posts above yours. I was going to say it, too, but I see you both have it well covered.

As for the creation, I can't understand why people want to make God a man or less than God. If He wanted to make the universe in one second, complete with fossil records and aged rocks, etc. it is no problem for God.

While scientific evidence points to an old Earth and old Universe, the Bible says it is young, I suppose. However, one only knows how long the "day" period in Genesis 2:4, since it is not defined as an evening and a morning as in Genesis 1. It is clearly not an evening and a morning, as it is the period when all these things were created. My guess is that the "day" in Genesis 2:4 is billions of years long. The Genesis 1 days are literal, however. They may not refer to material creation, as the language being used is different in Genesis 1 and does not include the Lord God (Genesis 2:4,5,7,8 etc), only God. Another difference is the creation in Genesis 1 is "created" or "made", while the creation in Genesis 1 is "formed" to some extent, especially when referring to select beasts and man.

[edit on 12/30/2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by Onboard2
reply to post by Hemisphere

 

Yes, it is interesting. There is so much life in water. Enki is very interesting to me. Enki comes from his watery home the Apzu or Apsu. I've seen it spelled both ways and he was also known as EA. I'm not so sure the serpent in the Garden of Eden isn't Enki. Have you ever wondered why 'the gods' would turn away Adam and Eve lest they become one of them? Strange. "We are made in God's image" comes straight from the ancient Sumerian writings.

Wondered? Certainly! Perhaps they (humanity) were simply not ready. A fine allegory told by many independent groups.

reply to post by Jim Scott


Your view appears to be quite correct Biblically, just as Adam was made a matured adult whose mind was filled with knowledge, the plants, trees, animals are all fully grown, and the mountains are made soaring into the sky.

The Omphalos hypothesis argues such an idea. Jewish commentaries have spoken of such ideas for ages. G-d could create an entire world with an entire history, with beings with memories, and it all could have been done a second ago. We wouldn't know any difference.

To comment on the days of creation, Erev and Boquer ( Evening and Morning) here are not really evening and morning. Instead were dealing with a base concept of the words. Erev= to enter, mix. Boquer= to examine. From what I understand the closest approximation to describe what is going on is like order and chaos or a "flow from disorder to order". One way of viewing it is Entropy and Extropy.

Nachmanides says the text uses the words "Vayehi Erev" -- but it doesn't mean "there was evening." He explains that the Hebrew letters Ayin, Resh, Bet -- the root of "erev" -- is chaos. Mixture, disorder. That's why evening is called "erev", because when the sun goes down, vision becomes blurry. The literal meaning is "there was disorder." The Torah's word for "morning" -- "boker" -- is the absolute opposite. When the sun rises, the world becomes "bikoret", orderly, able to be discerned. That's why the sun needn't be mentioned until Day Four. Because from erev to boker is a flow from disorder to order, from chaos to cosmos.

Age of the Universe
www.aish.com...



[edit on 30/12/09 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by digifanatic
reply to post by Hemisphere and post by Safandjaro

 

Yup, it is interesting. The ancient Sumerians believed that their Gods came from an abyss of water and actually have many images depicting it. They've said that their Gods came to and fro regularly via this water. So if all these different civilizations (who didn't talk to each other) agree that God came from water and then man was created, then my hypothetical question is: "What is this water and what were we created for?" It might be an interesting read for you guys to check out the Stargate thread by Undo.

The other interesting thing is that there is written evidence by the ancient Sumerians that there was a sky battle among their Gods. It is also hypothesised that the Sumerians didn't write anything that wasn't true because the written language was so new and they wanted to chronicle their lives in hopes that future generations would learn from them.

Check out the Epic of Gilgamesh for more info.

Thanks, I'm familiar with the flood story being borrowed and more. If we treat these ancient descriptions as truth, in that the Sumerians did not have lies yet in their communication toolbox, then the water could have been any number of natural things.

Water was necessary for life.

Water was the starting point.

Water was supreme in that it could also end life as in the flood story.

Life came out of the ocean.

The ocean provided for life as in fish to consume. (The Jesus fish?)

Human life came from the waters in the womb of a woman.

But if the Father creator of all, who became flesh to take away the sins of the world created Lucifer...who do you really think owns this entire Movie Production called LIFE?

God of course...

I feel much of the war, evil, wickedness, suffering in this world is good...WHY?

It makes you surrender crying out Abba father..please help me.

So thus Lucifer knows this...he just doesnt want you to know this truth plus he is appointed prosecuting attorney.
You cant be good to get Gods favor. You have Gods favor because he sees Christ
You cannot do good works it is the father in you that doeth the works lest any man boast.

Many Jews will finally get tired and throw in the towel
Many leaders will finally get tired and throw in the towel
Many christians will finally get tired and throw in the towel
Many religious folks will finally get tired and throw in the towel
Many atheists and agnostics will finally give up and throw in the towel
Your logic will fail
Your reason will fail
Even on that day Lucifer gets tired and throws in the towel

Glory to God




Besides...it is to be taken to the highest level of surrender...Quitting and receiving the free gift.

It is finished.

Good Book to read
The Ragamuffin Gospel
Brennan Manning



[edit on 30-12-2009 by superluminal11]

Thank you for this post. Very interesting stuff.

However, the question that cannot be answered by science or religion (that is to say people) is how that first molecule got here in the first place. I don't care if you can identify the very first molecule that created the Universe, how did that get here?

It makes no sense to me that anything exists. Existence itself is improbable, yet undeniable.

Whether you believe the origin of matter began with God or some chance chemical reaction or Aliens; someone or something had to exist to create all the stuff that is here.

It is that unanswerable question that causes me to neither reject nor accept any belief or theory as to the origin of life. It is all good. But as far as I am concerned, it is all equally suspect.

reply to post by Locoman8


Just want to thank you for posting this. I've always held that spiritual knowledge and scientific knowledge aren't mutually exclusive and this thread is evidence of that. As a person raised in the Catholic faith I've found it necessary to reconcile what I know to be true scientifically w/my faith in the Word. The chronology you've presented here, I've never been able to articulate but it rings true to me, seeing the scriptures laid out in such a manner.

Thx again.

~peace

This is a reply to Katoomer3 on his views of evolution being criticized upon.

Funny thing is most science that is studied about evolution only focus on where we came from and how we evolved from things on this planet. Question is if we evolved from this planet, what did this planet evolve from?

If you don't understand what I'm asking let me break it down for you. Most scientist claim that we evolved from land animals and animals evolved from micro-organisms and the like and so on. But, where did those micro-organisms come from and where did this massive planet along with all the other planets floating in nothingness, which we call space, come from and how was it formed?

Problem is that it is unexplainable and scientists that are just now coming along with all the technological advancements that we just came up with in the past hundred years after thousands of years of nothing are claiming that we came from apes. I call BS!

Man will never understand anything until they understand they know nothing.

Interesting thread. I like Terrence McKenna's interpretation of the verse.

The nub of what I’m trying to get at here is that the world is made of language. Our entire Western religious tradition begins with the incredibly cryptic statement, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was made flesh.” What is this making the word into flesh? And does it not imply that eventually the flesh will become word?

As we now know, since the discovery of DNA, we arise out of sequences of what are called codons, which are the nucleotide units in the DNA which code for protein. The messenger RNA takes the template of the DNA and runs itself through a ribosome, and the ribosome gathers amino acids out of the ambient environment, connecting them up to create a protein. What this means is that we are, in fact, textural. Each one of us is a word of approximately 700,000,000 characters, and this word is made flesh when the sperm and the egg form a zygote and the DNA textural message is downloaded into matter. Now we are on the brink of decoding the human genome, and the end result of this is that the flesh will be made word.