Understanding Modern Warfare (not a C.O.D. thread!)

*Please do not be put off by the length of this thread, and if you really cant bear reading the intro, dont worry too much because the main point are under the subheading below.*

Recent events in Iran have shown me something absurd. Not the events themselves, more the way the western media presents those events to us. So to start off I'd like to briefly explain what has been going through my mind recently when watching the news:

First and foremost is why. Why am i being shown this story today, at this time in our civilisations history, as opposed to the many other events currently being ignored by the people whos job it is to "inform". It could simply be that sometimes the people doing the reporting genuinely do not know what else there is to report. But seeing as we have global communications far wider reaching than ever before, i find it difficult to beleive that the content of a particular news program doesn't have some sort of set agenda. Who sets that agenda, and why? I do not care to speculate in this thread. Im more intersted in the implications and affects of such agendas.

Secondly, how is this news being presented to me. Does the presenter or reporter use an excess of emotive language? And what emotion(s) are they trying to make me feel about what im being told. These questions (and similar) are my anti propoganda tools.

So, are you equipt? Good, now read on my dear friend.

Making all wars history (how i would approach this issue)

The way wars happen today completely baffles me. Not because i have misunderstood the nature of the conflicts. Its more due to the fact that the west (well okay the UK and USA.... at least!) consistently make no attempt whatsoever to understand the culture and mindsets of those they consider a "threat", or those who "need our intervention" (foreign policy). In addition to this, we take very little consideration of what those differences actually mean. For example, when you say to an Englishman "philosophy" a typical response might be along the lines of "yea its interesting, you know,, whats the meaning of life an all that" - please try your best to forgive these sweeping generalisations im currently providing. just think about the main point of what im saying - But if you were to say "philosophy" to a frenchman his typical response might be "Of course! Philosophy, something very important we must think about as human beings." Can you see the difference. Its sublte, very subtle, but i think very indicative of the difference in cultural values. How values are expressed is for me very important in understanding the significance of that value, which shows how much we truly value it. no?

As for values themselves, i think we are long overdue some sort of public discussion concerning, not just what our own values really are as a community, but more importantly how those values differ to the rest of the world. And for that to happen we need to do something we have for too long negleted; understand as much as possible about the cultures of other countries we have an active working relationship with, especially if that relationship is even slightly moving closer to conflict and war.

Now another question arises however. Why hasn't this been done yet!? People wonder why diplomacy doesn't work to resolve all conflicts, when really it should, for the sake of innocent lives. Because, when values differ there is usually a fundamental difference between what is means to be human too. So understanding that difference is the first step. Even if it means waking up to the fact that certain aspects of your culture are flawed in comparison. the second step i think should be to understand what is commonly valued by the humans of the conflicting societies, not just valued materially (as the west could be summed up), but spiritially, socially (many important subtleties lie here), emotionally, intillectually, politically and so on.

Make no mistake in thinking these things will certainly resolve all conflicts forever. That would be ridiculous. But for me, I see great potential for our future global community if such steps are taken in order to at least further understand our most fundamental differences… man it nearly brought a tear to my eye in realising that actually at present some differences are not even recognised by the majority of people and the media., such as the ones stated earlier in my thread. I wonder what percentage of Americans are aware of the beauty and wisdom of Persian/Iranian poetry. Compared to how many knew the result of the recent elections.

Anyway as I was saying, I think humanity could really learn a lot from coming together like this, and who knows we might discover how much we have in common after all. Potentially, ending all wars forever. I look forward to your responses.

You ask too much of humanity.

How are we going to set aside our differences when we all are so engulfed in our own ideologies? It's almost like we're all living in different Universes within the same Universe. Of course, humans are smart and ingenious at times, but current technological advances have made us lazy - not everyone understands how the tech. they use works, and so not everyone can understand the other things in their lives. It's made us passive and indifferent towards understanding things because 'what hope is there for me to learn everything?'

And it's true. Do you TRULY know how your internet works? Do you know what each resistor and capacitors function in your motherboard is? How does your computer store memory?

These are all basic questions that all of us ought to know the answer to - and this seems irrelevant - but indifference breeds indifference. As soon as we give up our zest to learn about one thing why should any other thing be different? Including different cultures, including different people's different problems, that they all, and we all too, must face one day?

If you couldn't answer the above questions what of these

Do you know why people in Africa are starving? Why is there constant warfare in some African countries? Are Iranians really protesting about the election? Or are they protesting violently because the election is just a good excuse to start riots? How many of the Iraqi's killed were in the army? How many civilian? How many Afghanis have been killed? What did they do to deserve this? What caused the war in Iraq to start in the early 90's and why are we still there? Why have people in the West (okay the US and the UK) forgotten already about all the wars they've been engaged in? Why is the US constantly at war? Why can't there be peace?

I can't tell you why there can't be peace, but I can tell you that there certainly won't be any peace if the United War Factory of America continues to constantly occupy foreign nations for whatever reason they tell you.

reply to post by LususNaturae


Interesting response.

current technological advances have made us lazy - not everyone understands how the tech they use works, and so not everyone can understand the other things in their lives. It's made us passive and indifferent towards understanding things because 'what hope is there for me to learn everything?'

Are you suggesting technology alone is responsable for human indifference towards knowledge? What you said at the end: "What hope is there for me to learn everything" seems absolutely timeless to me. What did cavemen think of the stars, or the moon, or rainbows, or hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes!? Obviously we can never really know, but i think it would be logical given how we did progress in other ways at that time (inventing tools, learning which plants are edible or poisonous etc) to assume that early humans didnt simply become so overwhelmed by their ignorance, that it actually drove them to indifference. Would we be here today if it had!? My point is, it has ALWAYS been the case that humans cannot practically learn EVERTHING And to suggest that this causes indifference implies you think humans are innately indifferent. And do i even need to carry on here... maybe i do, damn i thought people could see clearer than this. Our civilisation and hundreds before us, simply disprove your indifference theory, laregely due to the fact that they simply existed.

And it's true.

No, it's not true.

Do you TRULY know how your internet works? Do you know what each resistor and capacitors function in your motherboard is? How does your computer store memory?

How are these questions relevant..? Oh right, yes your about to tell me, or are you?....

These are all basic questions that all of us ought to know the answer to - and this seems irrelevant - but indifference breeds indifference.

I see, so your admiting they aren't relevant. But you then go on so say...

As soon as we give up our zest to learn about one thing why should any other thing be different? Including different cultures, including different people's different problems, that they all, and we all too, must face one day?

Becuase, differenct cultures ar far more f-ing important than the way my mother board works or the way the internet works. To suggest otherwise would be plain ignorant, and quite frankly insulting to all to who have lost their lives thanks to the wars and conflicts accross the world.

Now its my turn to ask you a question. How likely do you think bloodshed will be if two countries who have a dispute of some sort were to fully undertand the culture and mindsets of the people they are in conflict with? Or this. How many people in the USA would have supported the Iraq war if they were educated about the difference between western values and Iraqi values?


Edit to add this. What are the chances of war with Iran, if someone spiked the FOX news network coffee machines with '___', causing them to completely change their global perspective so that instead of pumping out fear and hatred of other cultures they encourage empathy and understanding?

[edit on 30-12-2009 by DizzyDayDream]

[edit on 30-12-2009 by DizzyDayDream]

as for this:

Originally posted by LususNaturae
You ask too much of humanity.

I beleive to ask any less could turn out to be fatal for our future global communities.

reply to post by DizzyDayDream


Thank YOU for your response. Okay, I will admit, sometimes when I start typing I don't really know what direction I'm going in. You caught me in that one.

No, perhaps I don't believe technology itself is the sole cause of all of this. But think about your example with FOX news... without technology such instant communication would not be possible. I apologize once more for going on a long-winded rant in my previous post.

I understand your point however, that we ought to understand a different cultures perspective before we wage war on them. Understanding is key to peace. Yes, this makes sense - even to me.

However, it has never been like that. Do you think the English/French cared for Native culture when they took over the Americas? I understand it's a very harsh reality, but inside we are still animals. And like animals we will always have fight or flight instincts. Understanding a lion isn't important to a deer. Likewise, understanding a deer isn't important to a lion.

(I apologize once more for making irrelevant statements)

Of course, without the media, perhaps people would have been far less inclined to go to war with Iraq. If people truly individually did their research before gobbling down every little thing portrayed by the media then, yes, I believe it would be much better.


As for those cavemen, looking at the stars and the moon and planets and figuring out which plants are edible and which poisonous....

those were out of necessity. Astronomy told you your location. Herbology taught you what to eat... But what survival necessity do we need to know of other cultures? It's not for OUR OWN survival, it's for theirs, isn't it? I mean, of course we should all be sympathetic toward our fellow man, for we are all brothers and sisters with a common ancestor (or at least, a lot of people believe this...) but what use is it TO US as individuals? THIS is the reason why it's too much to ask of humanity. It would be like asking the alpha male to just, step down and let someone else mate for a second.

Thank you for the topic, btw.

Amazing thread... Lucus, if you don't mind, i will be stepping in to take Dizzies place for the rest of the discussion... seems he couldn't handle his own thoughts on this issue adequately enough formulate a coherent response... i feel his passion though.. hence my desire to step into his shoes (if only briefly) and resurrect this thread... PM or reply when you want to hear a reply to your last post... if nothing materialises i will ask DizzyDayDream personally for permission to start a thread of my own on these issues.

Peace
Emerald