PAK-FA Tests Underway

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist
Russia makes some incredible planes but they lack the advanced computers that USA has been using for years and are well versed with its functions and capabilities, many of which are still highly classified.

The Russians acquired some advanced CPU manufacturing equipment a few years back...

I'd wager the processing units within the PAK-FA are on a smaller node than the F-22.

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist
The use of highly manuverable planes is kinda obsolete anymore since "dog-fights", are a thing of the past and missles can be fired from hundreds of miles away.

Oooh, that is soooo not going to be true.


The radar guided AAM is shortly going to become utterly irrelevant and a relic.

In a future (real) war, you make EM emissions, the vast majority of the time... you die.

Originally posted by Sky watcherThat thing is about as stealth as an F-18. Raptor pilots are going to laugh so hard if they ever go into battle because the Russians will be shooting each other down thinking they are hitting Raptors. The Raptors will be very safe for along time, Especially with their new cloaking abilities.

Good job at thinking outside the box Mr.Sakoi.

Nice flamebait Sky watcher. Care to back it up with some evidence sir? Oh, Its Sukhoi in proper English BTW, not Sakoi.

Originally posted by AliensdoexistI agree this plane does not have many "Stealth" features and by the looks of it Russia traded stealth for performance.

Does not have many stealth features? How? Care to back up that claim?

Your last sentence has a bit of truth though, stealth wasnt paramount to all other facets of aircraft building. This approach has assured that the AC isnt a heavy flying brick.

Russia makes some incredible planes but they lack the advanced computers that USA has been using for years and are well versed with its functions and capabilities, many of which are still highly classified.

Dont overestimate the computer specs being used in the F-22 and dont underestimate the computer specs that the Russians have at their disposal.

Frankly, the F-22 uses electronics predating the Pentium 1 processor. Not saying that that is a flaw, far from it. Older hardware is usualy more stable in electronic warfare.

If you code the software good enough then the systems aboard a fighter will go very fast.

And from my understanding, Elbrus (in short, Russian IBM) is able to produce 130, 90 and soon 45NM chips that are technicaly sufficient to even being used in the commercial sector. Often those are multicore processors.

The use of highly manuverable planes is kinda obsolete anymore since "dog-fights", are a thing of the past and missles can be fired from hundreds of miles away.

That BVR doctrine is based on the fact that radars are the ones doing the detecting and tracking of enemy planes. That doctrine is with the coming of the SU-50 a thing of the past. A new BVR doctrine is the optical BVR which takes place at distances of les then a 100 kilometers.

Even then it might proof to be not enough. the F-22, 35 and SU-50 have dramaticaly reduced optical and IR footprint and thus are less detectable by optical sensors.

That could infact mean that the distances to spot each other will be so short that WVR combat still is gonna take place. And then, THEN a pilot NEEDS a plane that outmaneuvers everyone.

Most of US technology in their generation 5 fighters is mind boggling. Russia does make some nice looking jets though.

I am glad that you like American planes. Just as i am for Russian planes.

reply to post by James R. Hawkwood


My Uncle is a Engineer for Boeing and he worked on some of the F-22 projects and he told me about 4 years ago that the F-22 is superior to any nations current fighters and also other nations proposed fighters that are on the drawing board. So whatever that means I'm not exactly sure but, I trust that he knows something that the public doesn't know especially since he was involved in development of the F-22. He never gave me specific details because its classified and it would've risked his job.

And nowhere in my post did I ever put down Russian aircraft, I said they build some great aircraft and I still stand by that remark but they still have a ways to go before they de-throne the F-22 and also the more versitile F-35 JSF. US is also toying with the F-15 Silent Eagle, a more stealthy version of the current F-15 Eagle and that is a great airframe in its own right. And we can compare stats and numbers on paper all day till our fingers bleed but the main factor that you can't easly compare is the person that is behind the stick of the plane that desides the outcome.

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist
My Uncle is a Engineer for Boeing and he worked on some of the F-22 projects and he told me about 4 years ago that the F-22 is superior to any nations current fighters and also other nations proposed fighters that are on the drawing board.

4 years ago that was true. Since then, other nations have made large dents in that lead,with AESA and stealth becoming priorities for other nations' research and design sectors. Furthermore, data from 4 years ago could not accurately predict designs coming out now (PAK-FA), let alone ones still in development by more secretive departments (China's J-XX. How hard was it to get solid information on J-10?)

And nowhere in my post did I ever put down Russian aircraft, I said they build some great aircraft and I still stand by that remark but they still have a ways to go before they de-throne the F-22 and also the more versitile F-35 JSF.

The time when F-22 is the unquestioned winner in air combat is coming rapidly to an end. As well, the F-35 more or less dethrones itself of any glory merely by existing as a hobbled F-22 (lower thrust-weight ratio, allegedly less stealthy, smaller payload, lower speeds, external hardpoints needed for any respectable loadout) whose biggest selling point is a STOVL config which further reduces aircraft combat capabilities.

US is also toying with the F-15 Silent Eagle, a more stealthy version of the current F-15 Eagle and that is a great airframe in its own right.

SE's intended for external markets. US has no need for it when it has poured so much money into F-22 and F-35 development.

And we can compare stats and numbers on paper all day till our fingers bleed but the main factor that you can't easly compare is the person that is behind the stick of the plane that desides the outcome.

Until evidence is brought up to show the factual comparison of pilots from place A as opposed to place B we can't fairly include pilot skill as a factor in comparisons, so we work with what we have.

reply to post by Darkpr0


Not to mention that his Uncle the Engineer works only for Boeing and not the rest of the worlds' nations. How does he know what is being produced and what is not? Who knows how different the SU-50 "Raptor Hunter" (sound like a good NATO codename?:lol and the F-22 Raptor would perform against each other.

I would volunteer to be trained for a dogfight me on a SU-50 and someone on an F-22 just to see who does better, the better pilot and plane gets to keep their life...

[edit on 2/9/2010 by 3vilscript]

Originally posted by AliensdoexistMy Uncle is a Engineer for Boeing and he worked on some of the F-22 projects and he told me about 4 years ago that the F-22 is superior to any nations current fighters and also other nations proposed fighters that are on the drawing board.

About the uncle part, we can debate that for eternity.

Also, 4 years ago, the SU-35BM and SU-50 werent exactly known projects except for the PAK FA. But then again. certain people thought it was vaporware.

But the F-22 being superiour to the SU-50? That is a very difficult matter to discuss. IMHO, the SU-50 is an opponent too tough for the F-22.

So whatever that means I'm not exactly sure but, I trust that he knows something that the public doesn't know especially since he was involved in development of the F-22. He never gave me specific details because its classified and it would've risked his job.

Give loads of booze to your dear old loving uncle who is soo sweet and nice! And coax some nice secrets from him

And nowhere in my post did I ever put down Russian aircraft, I said they build some great aircraft and I still stand by that remark.

But you doubted wrongly about their capacity to build high tech computer chips.

but they still have a ways to go before they de-throne the F-22 and also the more versitile F-35 JSF.

With the SU-50, Russia has a fighter plane that can potentialy outperform the F-22 and F-35 in their own games.

US is also toying with the F-15 Silent Eagle, a more stealthy version of the current F-15 Eagle and that is a great airframe in its own right.

The F-15SE is a nice upgrade package for a obselent airframe. The SE upgrade would have been nice in the year 1995 but not in this timeline. The time is up for the F-15. No way it can compete with the likes of the SU-35BM and SU-50.

And we can compare stats and numbers on paper all day till our fingers bleed but the main factor that you can't easly compare is the person that is behind the stick of the plane that desides the outcome.

Yes the pilot factor is and always be the key in manned airframes. Traditionaly the US fighter pilots got better training when compared to the Soviet/90's Russian fighter pilots.

That capabillity gap has decreased sharply due to improvements in the VVS. Russian fighter pilots usualy get 120 to 130 hours per year on training. the US pilots do a 150 to 160.

US pilots for now have the upper hand but the number of hours that the Russians get are increasing steadily. Sooner or later Russian pilots will make the same amount of flying hours the Western pilots do. Then the airframe will be the deceiding factor.

i'm posting this info to supplement J.R. Hawkwood's contention that Russia has the capability to create and deploy their own microprocessors which can easily rival anything made and developed by the west.

The chips and whole blocks developed by 'Module' are used on MiG-35 fighter, satellites ('Yamal-100/200', Victoria EKS and others), on a number of the International Space Station subsystems (Zarya, Zvezda blocks). R3081E chip is used in MTsP-9/MTsP-15 processor module of the inertial navigation system INS-2000 for fighters, more than 70 units were made. It takes part in 5th generation fighter development too.

Russian Chip Makers

Elbrus 3M

not to derail the thread, it is my opinion that the finalized iteration of the PAK-FA will definitely give the F-22 a run for its money. when one takes into consideration the disparity between the processing units that each plane uses, it would appear that the PAK-FA would come out on top pending block upgrades to the standard F-22.

[edit on 2.10.10 by toreishi]

I do have to throw in my 5c here. I also have heard from a very reliable source that the F-22 has capabilities in terms of E-warfare and aerodynamic performance which are far in advance of stated figures. For example, 35,000lb + engines are more like "+++". And its radar and other electronic systems simply are in a league of their own and likely to be for a long time to come.

That is why the F-22 is not available to other US allies. It really is more of a leap than people realise, though it is sadly also true it is a far more demanding aircraft in terms of maintenance than anyone expected. The relaibility of it is not up to needs and it is proving tougher than expected. But when the plane is "in the zone", then it will be suicide for anything within 70-90 miles of it.

Originally posted by Borys
I do have to throw in my 5c here. I also have heard from a very reliable source that the F-22 has capabilities in terms of E-warfare and aerodynamic performance which are far in advance of stated figures. For example, 35,000lb + engines are more like "+++". And its radar and other electronic systems simply are in a league of their own and likely to be for a long time to come.

That is why the F-22 is not available to other US allies. It really is more of a leap than people realise, though it is sadly also true it is a far more demanding aircraft in terms of maintenance than anyone expected. The relaibility of it is not up to needs and it is proving tougher than expected. But when the plane is "in the zone", then it will be suicide for anything within 70-90 miles of it.

The problem with this is that even if you had the specs and/or list of technological advances in the F-22, you still would not have them for the Su-50. So how can anyone know without the info how different either of them are from each other. Or how much more advanced the plane is from any other country's not yet revealed fighter. There is no doubt that the F-22 is a wonderful piece of engineering but we don't know that the Su-50 isn't or that there might be another in development that surpasses them both.

Originally posted by Borys
That is why the F-22 is not available to other US allies. It really is more of a leap than people realise, though it is sadly also true it is a far more demanding aircraft in terms of maintenance than anyone expected.

Yup, because its totally impossible to derate the engines or integrate an export package for electronics and warfare systems...

I am shocked this never made it to the front page! I missed it until I saw it on globalsecurity.org!!

I am very happy to see the PAK-FA operational! it's a hybrid of a YF-23/F-22/Su-27 lol it's awesome.

reply to post by Aliensdoexist


Yes but the guy who's uncle works at KNAAPO can say something on similar lines
I am infact willing to wager that such a post would have showed up on some European and/or russian discussion board/blog.

reply to post by Borys


E-Warfare.. yes could be much more under the hood than we are all lead to believe.That is why you have those moles in the relevant departments leaking specs and capabilities out to foreign powers!
And vice versa of course..
Its pointless to have a healthy discussion on aspects that cannot be confirmed or refuted unless philosophy is the intention.


Now aerodynamic performance.. Thats an interesting point.. are we talking about maximum rated speeds, AoA, TVC etc.? We have had a very good look at this aircraft over the last decade through videos, pictures, tech specs, documentaries et al. We do know (with a certain degree of confidence) all control surfaces and thus the associated maneuvering capabilities. Higher rated engines could point to better super-cruise and possibly an increase in the effective combat radius.

Are we saying that the true rated capabilities are 10,20,30% greater than publicized? I see this becoming an SR-72 mach 3+++ dicussion which ends up going nowhere.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I am shocked this never made it to the front page! I missed it until I saw it on globalsecurity.org!!

I am very happy to see the PAK-FA operational! it's a hybrid of a YF-23/F-22/Su-27 lol it's awesome.

Operational??? Far from it. It is a single airframe that is about at the point the F-22 was in 1991. Its still going to be a long time before it is a complete weapon system and deployed in operational numbers. And I am not saying anything negative about the aircraft at all, but its going to be quite a while before it is operational.

Bear in mid the following:

* The F-22 has stopped production. There are only 187 of them.
* The PAK-FA we see might undergo many changes by the time it is accepted for series production.
* The real battle battle for the PAK-FA is not some theoretical encounter with an F-22, but the real world battles that matter: those for production dollars.

The PAK-FA is going to give a tough account of itself on world markets. A true 5th generation plane with twin engines? Well, that's PAK-FA - nothing else is available. There will of course be some pretty good 4th gen+++ planes on the market, but the PAK-FA will be a strong sales success, but ONLY if the Russians can build a true 'ecosystem' around it. The concepts of service and support, of upgrade paths may be unexciting to fanboys, but to the guys signing the cheques, they matter every bit as turn rates, acceleration and RCS.

The Russians have a LOT of work to do: they have a poor record of after sales service, despite the excellence of the designs they have. That is where the Americans shine. And the scary thing is 5th gen aircraft are DEMANDING: they will require new ways of manufacturing and maintenance. It's going to be one painful learning curve for all...

Someone speaking about the fully detailed color 5 view reconstruction? Soon!

teaser

reply to post by Borys


very true..

And one would presume that financial analysts on the PAK-FA program would have closely watched the bloating of the F-22 per unit cost, as it went through various stages of development and production. They must factor that into a contingency buffers so that they can ensure that the numbers they publish to the approving parties in the Kremlin do not fluctuate drastically in this decade.

The not so distant experience of the astronomically inaccurate estimates for the carrier Adm Gorshkov, is still fresh in the minds of those who hold the strings to the purses as it were. And so accurate costing would have been a red flag requirement from the get go.

As far as offsets around foreign markets in a cost recovery model (F-22 program till date does not have this luxury), there are already ~500 units planned for production between India and Russia. (~250 each).
Other countries may turn out to be customers as well and Brazil looks like a very very high probability target. South Africa, France etc may also eventually end up consuming from and contributing to this program.

Lastly, this program is more of a longterm military resurrection strategy that will span governments (ideology does not change much in successive Russian terms..call is pseudo democracy or what you will) thus ensuring continued funding and support, barring an economic catastrophy spanning all participant nations.

So yes, painful curve, but perhaps gentler than presumed by drawing exact parallels to the F-22.

The PAK-FA makes more compromises towards maneuverability than radar signature.

So expect it to be slightly easier to see, but slightly more maneuverable than an F-22*.

Expect deep trouble if you are in an F-35.



*Estimates of the PAK-FA engines are of ~150-160 kN units, while the F-22s are somewhere around 160-170 kN.

However, that will be uninstalled thrust. Due to the rectangular nozzles, you can expect the F-22s nozzle efficiency to be at least 5% lower than the PAK-FA... (probably more like 10%).

The F-22 has aerodynamics that enable a very high top speed, but it is limited by materials: anything over Mach 2.5 and key components would begin to lose integrity very soon. But acceleration would be impressive...

Everyone here just needs to be bear in mind that even after so many years, the F-22 is a LONG way from getting the kinks ironed out of it. And the PAK-FA is still years away from operation. Jury is still out. The F-22 may be older in basic concept, but it is a more mature platform and I am sure that the Russians will soon experience with the PAK-FA what the Americans are going through with the JSF...

Pain.

T-50-1 vs. YF-22A vs. F-22A size comparison (in scale).

Edit: YF-23A added.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by matej]