DEVGRU vs. SFOD-D

DEVGRU and CAGs make up one unit. Section 17-same unit that pulled Saddam out of spider hole. Same units that raid oil rigs. 100 most highly trained men in the world. 50 from ex ST6 or DEVGRU and 50 from CAGs(combat applicants group) or the unit-also known as the top tier SFOD-1 operators. Secondly, keep the lines between spec. warfare, spec. ops, and spec. forces very clear. THey are all significantly different. Anyhow Memebers of Sec.17 usually "disappear" for long periods of time before armed mass conflict. Ex. Pre-OIF, CAG red team members' families reported their loved ones leaving for "training exercises" not to be heard from for up to one year. Sec.17 was the largest US troop presence on the ground during the Bosnian conflicts. The standard red sword in a army green triangle patch is their insignia usually accompanied with an upside down black tinted american flag on the front of their ppe. 160th is their delivery system. If war with Iran is imminent expect them to be on the ground already. Rumored stations are in the green zone in Korea, South America, Advisory to SAS in Africa, and of course mid east. Generally one cannot differentiate between Sec. 17 and civi contractors except for weapons loadout, discipline, peeling methods, team face of fire, and the ppe markings. Although this doesnt give a comparison, hopefully it shows in essence you are comparing the same unit.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


That was very well said.

You really can't compare the 2 because 1. they are virtually one and the same.
And 2. There are so many different tiers in their organizations. Who are you comparing to who?

This is the same across the world's Special Forces communities.
Both U.S Army and Navy Special forces groups work with/for the CIA, NSA etc. as well as International govournment agencies.
The British SAS work closely with MI5 as well as other international govournment agencies
ect. ect.

Then you have all sorts of civilian contractors and mercs. Thats a whole other spiders web lol

And in the end it all ends up working together from time to time on different levels.

It seems to me that most (not all) of the people on this thread are civilians that don't know about any Special Operations group. As for the question as to which team is better.... Well, they are both trained by Americans and work with foriegn operators as well, so their training is about the same. The US Govt spares no expense in funding both of these units, so equipment is top notch on both sides. In my opinion I would believe that they are technically capable of executing the same operations just as well as the other. The only real difference would be Army vs. Navy. They are trained just as well as each other. I would say the only difference in the units' capabilities would be the men operating in them. They are both superior fighting forces fighting for the same team.

ive seen only pretty young guys walking around jsoc which are navy guys, kinda because they way they act (no offense), and all the ( select army) guys that come to the air force jm class on pope are a lil older and move slower than the navy guys that come thru. as far as missions, im sure thay both have unlimited assets, training and money, so much they roll around on those balance cycles with two wheels around the compound. who would i rather work with as an air force guy, a v- or d boy, due to the invincible issue (some not all) navy guys have, no matter what tier

Im sorry but Devgru is far more capable of Hostage rescue than Delta, in regards to there experience in VBSS. This is a task they perform on a regular basis in training and real world situations.
I have nothing against Delta, but their track record is far from perfect. I know they are very secretive about their exploits, but the one's we get to hear about usually dont end in the right result. Or is this just bad PR from the U.S Government (Again).

Devgru on the other hand was created with some former members of ST6 and Red Cell (who's bread and butter was CRW (Counter revolutionary warfare).
These units proved time and again what was needed and how to do it, (although the U.S Gov doesnt take criticism very well, and wont learn until it does).

All these units are experts at there job, its just that some are better than others.

Back in the day, Blue Light was a competing force by the 18th Airborne Corp Commander AND the Commander of the Special Forces AFTER they learned COL Beckwith got the go from the Joint Chief of Staff to develop and form SFOD-D. The competing commanders felt that Delta wasn't nessecary when they had Special Forces (Blue Light) and a Rangers CT force, to perform that mission, even though CT wasn't in there trainng or mandate. Delta won the role as a dedicated CT force.

reply to post by Transc3ndent

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


I believe that Delta is the best in the world knowing how secretive these guys are and knowingly almost killed Osama Bin Laden in a few moments.

These guys are suppose to be 24/7 trained killers and I guess you should watch The Unit to get a glimpse of how specialized these guys are.

Seals are different compared to the Delta and from what I read these guys are practically their own branch of the military but, not confirmed their existence. They are unknown. Wherever they're needed they will be there but not in US military standard issue uniform or Camo. They probably would show up in Swiss Army special forces Uniform and no one knew just to get the job done swiftly and quietly.

They dont even answer to anyone else but one man

Hey former civilian DEVGRU employee. Its CONUS or OCONUS. NOT INCONUS.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


This is intresting... May I ask, why upside down American flags? Are they war protesters? Lol, I'm sorry. What I mean to say is why carry any patches at all?

Secondly, where do they get the name SECTION 17?

Both groups are highly competent and capable. If I was in a hostage situation, I would be pretty dang ecstatic to have either group on scene. Without more specifics it is pretty hard to choose. Either way, I would trust them with my life, and for me, that's saying something.

Okay, after seeing some of these posts on here and how crazy they seem to look, I have to respond. I have been laying low and keeping my distance from a lot of posts just to feel them out.

I am retired Army, just wrapped up 24 years in 06 and I am not Spec Ops or SF however throughout my tenure I have had the opportunity to work along with real close certain A-team's and even Batt level and with the 1rst due to my MOS. I was a 11 Bravo primary/45 Bravo secondary which is a weapons specialist but it's just a glorified word for Army Gunsmith.

I also spent 12 of my 24 years at Fort Bragg and I always hear from people all this TS crap about SF or Delta and where the compound is and what is there. Half of what I hear is BS. The ones that claim they know, only know what they have been told or from what they see on the web and they don't refutte it because they want to believe it all.


I still work for the Army as a DOD civilian now, I did work at the Dept of Logistics and provided GSU tech support on their weapons when I was at Bragg. All this stuff you see on the net, some maybe true and others is not. Have you ever noticed when people talk or discuss the location of the compound it's all ATS and they can't discuss it.......that's BS to. it's not ATS either because I have been there many, many times.

Certain things that are in the compound are classified as such but the location was not even sealed off until the late 90's. It's is true however that you do need at least a full secret to get in and other areas a TS. But then again Bragg has many places like that on post just like JSOC or the AF CAC course area.

You ask just about any soldier who has been at that post and they can probaly tell you where it's at just like me, I can also tell you I run into them on a regular basis at the PX, bowling alley, sports bar, AAFES special services, Burger King, McDonalds etc.......

Mostly everyone wears their regular BDU'S and their earned speciality beret, except for 1rst. They are the exception which means modified grooming standards, no name/us army/unit patches and usually black track shoes. You can usually pick out Delta very easy at the PX or walking on post.

All I am saying is that please don't believe everything you hear, people have blown all this stuff so way out of proportion it's crazy. If you hear someone that claims they know someone that was in SF but can't tell you their MOS or can't tell you who they are.......they are lying to you.

Also all this stuff about they have their own ranges, thats bull to. Everyone on that post uses the same ranges, they have different range time and classes however. They also go to Camp McCall and utilize that facility right up the road and perform some of their Q courses, SERE and other things like Robin Sage.

I used to work at at SWICC which is part of the SF Command except it's a separate BLDG.When these guys demobbed from Afghanistan I was filling out 2407's, 5988's and dash1's for M79's. Yep, I said it....M79's.


A lot of folks find that hard to believe but it's true, you use what the Army gives you soldier and quit whining. The crew served weps are just about the same as any leg unit with the small exception of a few. Now where the big difference come's in is Electro Optics and Commell.

I only know this to be true because I work in Night Vision/Thermal Imaging
and I maintained a lot of the gear they had, to be honest if you are 82nd ABN you get all the good stuff and if you are not it's usually oh well, you get what you get.

I have seen reserve SF units mobilize through Bragg and they had some old crappy gear all the way down to M16A2, M79, Mossberg shotgun, M911,PVS 5A&C NODS.

BTW, Chuck Norris has no house or ranch there folks, that scene was at the old Rockefeller place on post. If someone claims to know everything there is to know about Delta, ask them where the old compound was. I know do they?

[edit on 3-1-2009 by hardeeboy]

reply to post by hardeeboy


One correction to make- nobody else at Bragg but CAG, uses the ranges at Range 19(unless they're operating ISO of CAG- i.e. 75th Ranger Rgt, 160th SOAR, FBI HRT, and perhaps some various other visiting SMUs).

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by hardeeboy

 

One correction to make- nobody else at Bragg but CAG, uses the ranges at Range 19(unless they're operating ISO of CAG- i.e. 75th Ranger Rgt, 160th SOAR, FBI HRT, and perhaps some various other visiting SMUs).

You got me on that one, I forgot about Lamont road.

reply to post by hardeeboy



I trully do find it disheartening to see that claimed DoD personell and men who claim to have military carreers with these special operations groups come online and purposely violate the agreements they signed in confirming or denying posted information. If you are looking for justification that you lived a worth while life by posting a blog saying you have done all of these cool things or you know these great things about these groups so you must share than i say you are a sad version of an american. In posting and confirming or denying you risk the lives of every american in uniform or out of uniform. Just in the past fifteen or twenty blogs people have attempted to reveal locations, uniforms, personal, training methods, Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures-all of which are classified for a reason, along with their existence. The gov't feels it necessary to protect these people so they can protect us as we all sleep soundly at night, but i guess that never crossed anyones mind. And i suppose you think your conversation topic is justified since the information is supposedly already available to the public, well you are wrong. Americans like this self defeat our own country. Other countries do not reveal their secrets for the sanctity of validating their own lives or to sound cool, no, they keep their mouths shut to protect the ones they love and the ones who protect them. So again, i say to all of those who have served and you keep confirming or denying, let it go, you are not right, you are only committing more crimes than you know. Do not consider this a hateful blog, but possibly an awaking factor.

The better question is who recruits from DELTA and DEVGRU. Well, with the exception of the CIA's SAD.

I really wonder how many secret squirrel units the JSOC has set up. Grey Fox/Torn Victor has to be just the tip of the iceberg.

I was talking to my buddy who was a sniper in Iraq for the 10th Mountain Division (4 BCT). He told me how when he was talking with a bunch of SF operators, these random dudes came out of no where and fastroped out of a black helicopter. And the SF guys had no idea who they were.

I'm sure that they were probably DELTA, DEVGRU, or some other JSOC unit but who knows. I'm not really sure how these clandestine, covert units coordinate their battlespace insertions.

reply to post by StarChild


Hands down, DEVGRU beats SFOD-D, any day of the week.

Navy S.E.A.L.'s and ST-6 rock, lock, and barrel pointed at the bad guy, three shots dead.

According to my research, ST-6 is the best, most efficient, and dirtiest Counter-Terrorism group out there, with regards to taking the fight to the enemy in the "War on Terror".

Now, while I disagree with the "War on Terror", it is because of the bureaucracy of Government, and the evil bastards within that, that I distrust, not the operators within these Unit's because those men are some of the hardest working men in the world.

More often then not they word hard and play hard, and are highly trained.

Richard Marcinko "Rogue Warrior"


Richard Marcinko, or 'Demo Dick", or even the "Shark Man of the Delta" is by far, the baddest man on the planet when it comes to "Shooting and Looting".

Quote from : Wikipedia : Richard Marcinko

Richard "Dick" Marcinko (born November 21, 1940 in Lansford, Pennsylvania), is a former United States Navy SEAL and author.

A number of nicknames have been ascribed to Marcinko, including "Rogue Warrior", "Demo Dick", "Shark Man of the Delta" and "The Geek".

He is the only man in existence that I think could actually kick Chuck Norris's ass.

I do however have to give Charlie Beckwith his due respect though, because he has done a lot to carve out SFOD-D, or otherwise known as "Delta Force".

Quote from : Wikipedia : Charlie Beckwith

Colonel Charles Alvin Beckwith (January 22, 1929 – June 13, 1994), known as "Chargin' Charlie", was a career United States Army soldier and Vietnam veteran, credited with the creation of Delta Force, a branch of the U.S. Army.

Although he is held in high regard by various members of the military Special Operations Forces, the general public know him best due to the ill-fated Operation Eagle Claw in Iran, 1980.

SAS/ WHO DARES WINS


Trust me, I think Charlie Beckwith is a superb operator, and fine man, but with the history of the bureaucracy that slows down Delta Force, and Operation Eagle Claw, he did not get a fair shake with things and I believe it has only harmed him.

Now, Demo Dick, he got arrested and thrown in prison, for telling the damn truth.

His first book, Rogue Warrior was his biography, and it landed him in hot water.

Library Journal : Amazon Review :

An autobiography of a career naval officer who dropped out of high school, enlisted in the U.S. Navy, and spent his career struggling to win acceptance for special warfare SEAL (sea-air-land) units within the Navy establishment from the late 1950s to the present.

Marcinko provides detailed descriptions of the early transformation of underwater demolition teams (UDT) into SEAL units.

With interesting vignettes about training and actual missions during the Vietnam War, he gives a close-up view of this specialized and little-known brand of warfare.

Marcinko's participation in the Iran hostage rescue attempt in 1980 and the U.S. invasion of Grenada in 1983 provide a perspective vastly different from the accepted versions of these events.

However, the overuse of salty language throughout the book that lends new meaning to the phrase "curse like a sailor" and Marcinko's polemical accounts of his struggles to win acceptance for specialized warfare within the Navy are unfortunate.

Not a necessary purchase.

Military Book Club main selection.

- Harold N. Boyer, Marple P.L., Broomall, Pa.

Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc.

To me, that was integrity, mixed with ego, and a real hatred of bureaucracy.

I respect him, if he knew how to fight the bureaucracy, then good for him, and getting arrested for it, well, that takes more chuztpa then Charlie Beckwith has for sure.

Now, again, do not get me wrong, I still respect Beckwith, and his book was awesome.

Delta Force: The Army's Elite Counterterrorist Unit

Amazon Review :

The only insider's account ever written on America's most powerful weapon in the war against terrorism Delta Force

Richard Marcinko, the Rogue Warrior, M-16 vs AK47


Delta Force Training Video


I do however think that S.E.A.L. Team Six has slid backwards since the bureaucracy finally got Marcinko out due to his refusal to "play fair" with the Navy commanders who wanted advance notice of his surprise "attacks" which were training exercises and finding the holes within how the Navy does things.

In other words, the Navy bureaucracy does not understand that terrorists will not fight fair, so why the Hell should "Demo Dick".

Beckwith would never put his leadership up to question when it comes down to it, and Marcinko did just that and lost to the idiots in Washington D.C.

I would buy Marcinko a beer any day, he has the chutzpah to at least put his money where his mouth is, and while I respect
Beckwith for training with S.A.S., he just will not jeopardize his command for the superior and realistic type of pushing "Demo Dick" will do to make the bureaucratic idiots in D.C. uncomfortable.

"Demo Dick" made the bureaucracy uncomfortable, and they stuck it to him for it.

I would much rather him at my back, if the proverbial feces hit the rotating oscillator, than Beckwith.

That either team even has to do the jobs they do however is sad.

I believe and prefer Anti-Terrorism over Counter-Terrorism because countering terrorism with terrorism, is still terrorism.

I love both of those but I as well see when they go the route of mercenaries, it boils my blood to no end, because that is bypassing our laws, and is a corruption of the system for Washington D.C. to sidestep our Constitution.

Blackwater : Right-Wing Conservative America, Whether You Like It Or Not...

...and...

Blackwater : Left-Wing Liberal America, & Shifting Alliance, Leading Because It's For Our Future...

That's a whole other ball of wax, and a completely different ball game.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Wow. That's all I can say, wow. There is so much bad information and displaced ego going on in this thread, I had to say something. Hardeeboy is giving you truth about real world TS (without violating NDAs I might add) and people are going on about Marcinko, Norris and Hawkings "parachute accident"; wow. Nav Spec War has very good people, so does USASF they all play together at SOCOM. The SAS has a bunch of very good blokes, I'm even related to one. On any given day, on any given task they are all exceptional teams. Who is "the best" is not a relevant question as it is not quantifiable. If you need him a 23 year old 03humpsalot saying "you're coming with me, sir" is freakin Superman. Until you've scrubbed "the suck" out of your hair and skin you aren't really entitled to an opinion. If you want to see what I mean, take The Oath, and then say "Hi" to Nasty Nick for me. Until then listen to Hardeeboy.

Nous Defions!

Cupie

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Anonymous ATS

 

This is intresting... May I ask, why upside down American flags? Are they war protesters? Lol, I'm sorry. What I mean to say is why carry any patches at all?

Secondly, where do they get the name SECTION 17?

yup, why? just curious about that.