UFO designs point inevitably toward hoax and/or terrestrial production

Pretty short thread here...was just sitting here thinking.....anyone ever wonder why in the HELL UFOs seem to change in design just as our views on design and aerodynamics do?

Am pretty certain this alone could support a theory of terrestrial origin. Why would green men cease to be reported, when at the exact same time that hysteria (mars being colonized by aliens was into play) was in in fulls wing (30s-40s)..

Then when the 50s came we see UFOS trimming down (the saucer shape) as well as rising up into 'wedding cake' and 'spinning top' shapes?

then on into the 70s and 80s we see a resurgence of reports in and around military bases of a triangular shape.....hmn round the time we were developing stealth tech it seems.

and now finally..on into the ethereal digital age of 'no boundaries' we see an even MORE illogical 'ship' shape of just flying lights, like something from a sci-fi film....like where would they even sit? lol.

anyone ever think about this? ever?

reply to post by jeddun


No doubt some UFO's are most likely from terrestrial origin. Perhaps even reverse engineered craft from recovered extraterrestrial UFO's. I would support the notion that most UFO sightings are in fact, secret black budget aircraft or other anomalous phenomenons of our atmosphere.

But that is not to say that we aren't being visited by extraterrestrials. In fact several reports, by governments across the globe, have come to the conclusion... that in a given number of cases, the most rational explanation is that of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Then comes the vast handful of unexplainable reports of ET/UFO encounters, abductions, what have you... That make more sense than fiction.

It is flawed to look at this argument and solely state that all UFO's are from terrestrial origin. That is purely closed-minded and ignorant. There have been far to many sightings reported around the world to proclaim this statement.


And for the record.... if you trace back, far enough in history... the general appearance of a handful of UFO's sightings have remained consistent over hundreds, perhaps thousands of years... And some of varying shape and structure as well! UFO's are not limited to our century.






[edit on 23-12-2009 by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx]

hmn i gotta disagree with your assessment of me being flawed in my thinking and even alluding to me being ignorant as there is nothing to prove there are Extraterrestrials visiting us..id have to flip it back at ya on this one....we could just as easily support the notion of trolls and goblins as for centuries we believed JUST that.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by jeddun]

All UFO shapes and sizes are reported on continually at the nuforc.org UFO report database. "Light" being the most common. Followed by "triangle" and then "circle". I don't think any one particular type of UFO shape has stopped being seen and reported on simply due to a change in date or contemporary train of thought.

www.nuforc.org...

reply to post by Frith

ya im on that site constantly...look at site reports and at most drawings and renderings of sightings......just ask yourself:


why would the little green variety of men not want to visit us past 1945-ish?

where the HELL did the ships that stack like a wedding cake go? Was BIG with that billy meier guy...remember him?

the blue coronal discharges seen by the very first of reports on the triangular variety are no longer seen..we must have flushed that aspect of the 'stealth' tech out and now its REALLY invisible and quiet. (if alien and they traveled here in that same ship..why change its design?!)

its just common sense..the same sense that kept us alive all these years.

in the 70s(rock and metal era was BIG in media) or so we hear reports of 'rock star' appearing nordic types with loooong white hair...

digital age...now its all about the triangles and points of light....as we now knnow (with our computers and tech) that we may not even NEED a physical ship to sit in.



just seems suspect to me..if i was a forensic investigator id have to say hoax.earthly origin...till someone produces a body of course...till then everything discussed outside the plausible is all heresy and fancy. How anyone NOT agree with this? if you cant produce a body there's no murder(just a parallel), certainly no conviction..if you cant produce even a decent image of a craft never mind a body..then what the hell?!



[edit on 23-12-2009 by jeddun]

reply to post by jeddun


I have plenty of evidence to prove my position.. Perhaps you should do a little more research before you jump to conclusions... I have researched this topic very extensively and know exactly what I am talking about.

Try these for starters, then after you know the FACTS you can make your assumptions based on just that... instead of irrelevant biased opinion

COMETA Report, Part 1
COMETA Report, Part 2
COMETA Report Summary

And yes I would believe the opinions of such high level scientiests, researches, and military officials over yours in a heart beat. Especially considering how much more they know that you.

How to you explain some of the best documented UFO cases that cannot be disproven? With evidence leaning towards the notion that aliens/ufo's have been here. Explain these with evidence supporting your theories and I will believe you!

The Battle of Los Angeles
The Hill Abuduction Case
Capturing the Light
The Height 611 UFO Crash
The Phoenix Lights
The Rendlesham Forest Case
The Bob White Artifact
Project Blue Book Unknowns
The Condon Report

Thats what I thought! Fact of the matter is, more evidence supports extraterrestrial visitation in these cases that doesn't. Why would the unknowns in project blue book be govt craft, when this project was conducted by those "in the know" of such craft. Conducted by leading Ufologists at AREA 51...

I would love to hear you logic behind that? All these people reporting UFO's/Abductions/Etc must just be delusional psychopaths than can't make a proper judgement between and apple and a air craft carrier, right? Your logic is flawed

----

And there are several videos, images, etc out there that have been PROVEN to be real, un-doctored images/videos, that support the ET notion.






[edit on 23-12-2009 by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx]

Originally posted by jeddun
Am pretty certain this alone could support a theory of terrestrial origin. Why would green men cease to be reported, when at the exact same time that hysteria (mars being colonized by aliens was into play) was in in fulls wing (30s-40s)...

"Little Green Men" reports are a popular misconception not in keeping with reality. Outside of one case, the Kelly-Hopkinsville Goblins, little green men are not the norm but an exception in entity reports.

Originally posted by jeddun
Then when the 50s came we see UFOS trimming down (the saucer shape) as well as rising up into 'wedding cake' and 'spinning top' shapes?

Aside from a rudimentary similarity, there has always been a variety in the craft reported.

Originally posted by jeddun
then on into the 70s and 80s we see a resurgence of reports in and around military bases of a triangular shape.....hmn round the time we were developing stealth tech it seems.

Sure, but one UFO type of UFO being man-made does not rule out other explanations.

Originally posted by jeddun
anyone ever think about this? ever?

I think your argument is weak, based mainly on popular culture perceptions of UFOs rather than actual case studies. Even if you theory is right, it doesn't necessarily rule out alien craft. Being that we live in the same universe as any hypothetical aliens, us and them will be bound by the same laws of nature. It stands to reason there are certain designs of craft that both humans and aliens will find the best.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

I think your argument is weak, based mainly on popular culture perceptions of UFOs rather than actual case studies. Even if you theory is right, it doesn't necessarily rule out alien craft. Being that we live in the same universe as any hypothetical aliens, us and them will be bound by the same laws of nature. It stands to reason there are certain designs of craft that both humans and aliens will find the best.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Trying to make an argument for the non-existance of UFOs based solely on the idea that inconsistency of reports means nothing is there is throwing the baby out with the bath water, IMO. You're certainly free to think that inconsistency puts the entire subject into the realm of contemporary myths. I choose not to given my own opinions of the publicly available evidence.

Until something big that is impossible to cover up happens with this subject, opinions against its reality can be made quite easily. That's all I can add here.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Frith]

Originally posted by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx
Why would the unknowns in project blue book be govt craft, when this project was conducted by those "in the know" of such craft.

That isn't true at all. There is a compartmentalization of knowledge in the military. Just because someone is a member of the Air Force doesn't mean they are privvy to all of the branch's secrets. There is no reason to assume that the Blue Book investigators would have any special knowledge of Air Force secret projects. If anything, the Air Force would ensure the investigators would be people not in-the-know.

Originally posted by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx
I would love to hear you logic behind that? All these people must just be delusional psychopaths than can't make a proper judgement between and apple and a air craft carrier, right. Your logic is flawed

As is your's. You are mischaracterizing the skeptical position. Saying someone is wrong, for whatever myriad reasons, is not the same as calling them "delusional psychopaths."

I think the saucers came from the Washington D.C. event in the 50s
but there was talk earlier.
The Foo looked like VW Bugs or as some say Turtles.
The unknown UFO triangle has been around since the 40s in
report given in 'Man Made UFOs" and of course Belgium.
Then there is the clam shell in Billy Meier film footage and in
Mexico UFO video footage which are similar to Bill Lyne's two
woks put together type sighted in the 50s near New Mexico
and Texas.
Now or recently we see fast glowing rods as the faster the craft
goes the more glow so imaging of wings and smoke help to
disguise as a plane.
This helps as going 20 to 30 mph to cut down on the glow at night
only had the Chinese lantern excuse for the UFO.
Looking like a passenger plane at night at 200mph might have
caused too much lightning for some observers.
So looking like a plane now in daylight going fast seems the latest
shape perhaps of a glowing rod or perhaps triangle.
Then there is the bright star in hover disguise.
I found one looked like a merry go round of portholes on youtube.

Jeddun,

I too have thought about the seeming change aesthetic in UFO visuals seen as our decades have passed. This, however does not prove that ALL UFO's are terrestrial. I am starring your post, but will not Flag it, due to the fact that you havent presented any visual examples to back up your thread, or make it a bit more interesting. Its a good thought, but lack of visual back up makes you out to be a bit lazy. My humble apologies.


[edit on 23-12-2009 by NightVision]

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Ok, I will give you that. But I feel as if it is more suggestive that they knew of such secret aircraft than didn't. Neither of us truly know. I do know that Dr. Hynek was a leading proponent in his field. And they were working for the USAF to classify UFO's. So I then ask, why would the USAF hide such information, when it was already top secret, from the investigators of the program. Again I am not ruling this out, as it is definitely plausible. Just saying it seems more likely that they would know.

And how am I mischaracterizing the skeptics position.... I am simply stating that it is invalid to state that ALL UFO's must be of terrestrial origin. A dilssuisonal psychopath... sorry for the poor choice of words, I was simply stating a rhetorical yet sarcastic question about the people reporting such cases. Not the skeptics....

Apologies if you misinterpreted my post





[edit on 23-12-2009 by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx]

It would be interesting to know what types of aircrafts were commonly in use here on Earth at the time it occurred THIS:

Aerial Battle Over Nurnberg - 1561

Woodcut of an Aerial Battle Over Nurnberg, now Nuremberg, Germany on April 4,

1561

At dawn of April 4, in the sky of Nuremberg (Germany), a lot of men and women saw a very alarming spectacle where various objects were involved, including balls "approximately 3 in the length, from time to time, four in a
square, much remained insulated, and between these balls, one saw a number of crosses with the color of blood. Then one saw two large pipes, in which small and large pipes, were 3 balls, also four or more. All these elements started to fight one against the other." (Gazette of the town of Nuremberg).
The events lasted one hour and had such repercussions that an artist, Hans Glaser, drew a woodcut of it at the time. It describes two immense black
cylinders launching many blue and black spheres, blood red crosses, and
flying discs. They seem to fight a battle in the sky, it also seems that some of these spheres and objects have crashed outside the city.

www.ufologie.net...
www.ufocasebook.com...



Transcript

Das Flugblatt stammt von Nürnberg und erzählt die Kunde von einem «sehr erschröcklichen gesicht» zur Zeit des Sonnenaufgangs am 14. April 1561. Es wurde «von vielen manns und weybspersonen» gesehen. Es waren «kugeln» von blutroter, bläulicher und schwarzer Farbe, oder «Ringscheyben» in großer Anzahl in der Nähe der Sonne, «etwo drey inn die lenge / vnterweylen vier inn einem Quatrangel, auch etliche eintzig gestanden / vnd zwischen solchen Kugeln sein auch etlich blutfarbe Creutz gesehen». Außerdem wurden «zwey große rore» (resp. drei) ... «in welchen kleinen vnd großen Rorn / z u dreyen auch vier vnd mehr kugel gewesen. Dieses alles hat mit einander anfahen zu streyten». Dies dauerte etwa eine Stunde. Dann «ist es alles wie obverzeychnet von der Sonnen / vom Hymel herab auff die erden gleich alls ob es alles Brennet gefallen / vnd mit einem großen dampff herunter auff der Erden allgemach vergangen». Ebenso wurde unter den Kugeln ein längliches Gebilde gesehen, «gleichförmig einem großen schwartzen Speer».
Selbstverständlich wurde dieses «Gesicht» als göttliche Warnung verstanden. Dieser Bericht enthält, wie dem Leser nicht entgangen sein dürfte, gewisse Einzelheiten, die an schon Erwähntes erinnern. Da sind vor allem die «Rohre», welche den zylindrischen Gestalten der Ufoberichte analog sind. Es sind, um in der Ufosprache zu reden, «Mutterschiffe», welche die kleineren linsenförmigen Ufos auf große Distanzen transportieren sollen. Das Bild zeigt sie in Funktion, nämlich Ufos entlassend oder aufnehmend. Besonders wichtig, aber in den modernen Ufoberichten fehlend, sind die unzweifelhaften Quaternitäten, die zum Teil als einfache Kreuze, zum Teil als kreuzförmig verbundene Scheiben, also als richtige Mandalas gesehen wurden.
Zufälligerweise sind es vier einfache Kreuze und vier Mandalas. Andeutungsweise erscheint auch das Motiv von 3 + 1 in dem Dilemma von 3 und 4. Wie die technische Interpretation für unsere Zeit, so ist für das XVI. Jahrhundert die kriegerische kennzeichnend. Die Rundungen sind Stückkugeln und die «Rohre» Kanonen, und das Hin- und Herschießen der Kugeln ein Artilleriekampf. Die große schwarze Speerspitze sowie die Lanzenschäfte (?) scheinen das Männliche zu verdeutlichen und insbesondere das Eindringende.
Ähnliches wird auch in der modernen Ufoliteratur berichtet.

Reference:
"A modern myth: things seen in the skies"

Carl Gustav Jung
Zürich, Stuttgart
Rascher Verlag 1958.

One thing we can say for sure, is that neither the witnesses nor the author
got inspired from "Independence day", nor from rockets, nor from Aurora projects stuff, etc etc: can't we? ANd notice, this is just ONE example.

___________

But i won't argue about this sighting:
Aerial mess over Basel, Switzerland in 1566
Because they were obviously chinese lanterns, right?

A 16th century woodcutting depicts this scene in which dark spheres were witnessed hovering over the town of Basel, Switzerland in 1566. The spheres appeared at sunrise, 'Many became red and fiery, ending by being consumed and vanishing', wrote Samuel Coccius in the local newspaper on this date.

16th century woodcut of spheres seen over Basel, Switzerland, August 7, 1566.

(Wickiana Collection, Zurich Central Library)
www.ufoevidence.org...

A 16th century woodcutting depicts a scene in which dark spheres were witnessed hovering over the town of Basel, Switzerland in 1566.
On August 7, 1566, at dawn, many citizens of Basel (Switzerland), frightened, saw during several hours the black spheres involved in a formidable aerial battle, invading the sky of their city: "at the time when the sun rose, one saw many large black balls which moved at high speed in the air towards the sun, then made half-turns, banging one against the others as if they were fighting a battle out a combat, a great number of them became red and igneous, thereafter they were consumed and died out," wrote Samuel Coccius, the student in "crowned writings and liberal arts" who consigned the strange events in the city's gazette.

Seriously, the point is that the "U" of the acronym "UFO" stands for "unidentified" and we have a HUGE amount of unidentified cases, even according to the most debunking-oriented organizations: as well as no one has been able to prove the existence of alien races, so well no one has been able to explain everything: so, you might mean that you think that SOME of the sightings can be explained as terrestrial in origion? I agree, but i'm afraid that the 99,9% of the people involved in the subject matter were already aware of it.

Thanks for sharing


[edit on 23/12/2009 by internos]

Originally posted by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx
I am simply stating that it is invalid to state that ALL UFO's must be of terrestrial origin...

It's not. Just as I am sure you would tell someone to keep an open mind to the possibility that UFOs have an alien origin, you should be open to the possibility there is a terrestrial origin(s) to the UFO phenomenon.

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


You are misintrepreting my posts... I never disagreed that some UFO's are from this planet. Of terrestrial orgin. And I do have an open mind.

I will restate it again, seeing as there is some confusion...

I am simply pointing out that it is closed-mined and ignorant to say "ALL UFO's are from this planet!" That may be the case, or it may not be. We really don't know. That is why it is closed-minded to say that! That, that is their only origin (this planet). But evidence from around the world does not support the notion that ALL ufo's are from this planet. That is what I have used to support my claims





[edit on 23-12-2009 by xX aFTeRm4Th Xx]

The concern over variety in the shapes of UFOs seems to reveal an assumption that there are only two examples of intelligent life in the universe - human beings and THE single species of "alien" that is visiting earth.

If we can assume that one kind of ET is capable of interstellar travel and visits planets other than its own, is it unreasonable to think that others can do it as well?

And if we assume that multiple types of ET may visit a given planet, is it unreasonable to speculate that they may each do so at different times, or each for a limited period of time? Or is it necessary to assume that every species of ET - once it has found a planet - sticks around indefinitely?

Considering the vastness of the universe, it doesn't seem out of line to suppose a billion intelligent, space-faring species are out there somewhere. If we assume even a hundred of those groups have mastered space travel to the point that traveling anywhere in the universe as easily as a person might walk from their kitchen to their bathroom - even if ten of them can - that would probably account for the relatively small variety of UFO types reported.

Another thing to consider: Why doesn't every airplane/helicopter/blimp/etc we have look identical to every other one we have? If we are only a single species, why do we have such a variety of aircraft?

reply to post by internos


Is it just me or does it look like the Sun is holding in a sneeze in both pictures?

Joking aside, in the case of the 1561 Nuremberg case, the broadsheet with the story and woodcarving was produced five years after the event. I wonder how much the event had changed in the minds of the witnesses in the intervening years.

Internos, perhaps you could answer a question for me. What month was the Nuremberg broadsheet produced? I can find the year but nothing more specific.

On one hand, I can see what you are saying. Maybe they change form because of the various atmospheres they travel in-as a matter of structural integrity?

I say that becuase they apparently have overcome the effects of coming to earth (not like us that have to have heat sheilds and protection etc). From all the videos I have watch, no once did any of the ships appear to burn or have issues coming from Space to Earth.

Additionally, think about all the different types of aircraft the US Gov has alone, not to mention the world over. Not space worthy, per-se, but we are not as advanced at them (apparently).

Maybe the aliens use Earth as a Flight School and testing area? I could come up with more ideas/theories but.... it really doesn't matter because it would be from a Human mind.

I think that is the problem for most debunkers etc, is that they think of things like Aliens/UFO's from a Human perspective and nothing else. Like, why would a UFO plunge into the sea, not be been seen again-they must have crashed and died....

Well, maybe-from a human point of view. But from an Aliens point of view, perhaps they need to do that to recharge their craft, wash/clean it or just chilling with sea life (maybe a cousin of theirs?). The point being is that too many of us put everything into the category of: If it is something we humans wouldn't do, then it is completely illogical for an Alien/Ufo to do it.

Aa far as the different craft etc.... I have to say it varies as much as the report looks of aliens. I have read accounts where the aliens have look and talk like we do (seems like prior to 1950)-they would stop to ask for water, give people rides (or offer to) and/or to go with them.

Up to the more recent reports (post 1950ish) that they are not human like and have mean/bad intentions (body snatchings, anal probes, animal mutilations etc etc).

It really comes down to YOU. What you believe and wish to seek better answers to. Or, just stick your head in the sand... or worse yet, try to convince everyone else that you are right and they are wrong (not a good idea to do IMO).

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Internos, perhaps you could answer a question for me. What month was the Nuremberg broadsheet produced? I can find the year but nothing more specific.

Here,
www.uzh.ch...
they should be able to share all about it, no more reliable source comes to mind.
A very important point is that it happened during the Protestant Reformation, so the hopes to have some serious, "unbiased" reports/documents are very close to zero: everything was ifluenced by religion, everything one could spot in the Sky was likely easily called some "sign of God". A rough translation of the original article reveals that the article itself tries to give to the sighting some religious meaning, but we'd need some German mother tongue to clarify that (the german original article telling the events is too hard to be understood by my poor german, there are many words i don't know at all) .