Big freeze brings misery and death to Europe

Originally posted by Alesanjin
reply to post by the_denv

 

I see what you mean. But, just for the record, global warming means hotter summers, and much colder winters. Not just mass warming.

Then it's not GLOBAL warming, is it?

It's a contradiction in terms is what it is

The Temperature minimas so far are as a result of a phenomena known as Stratospheric Warming effect (or Sudden Stratospheric Warming.)

Its where the Polar Vortex which causes the rotational axis of the Jetstream across the Northern Hemisphere gets blocked by a large High System Pressure over Scandinavia and Sibera, this Blocking effect cuts off the Gulf airflow feeding the westerly airflow and reverses it, "pooling" cold Arctic winds from the North into the entire Northern Hemisphere.
Unfortunately due to the Trade Winds this Pooling effect is consistent for days/weeks on end until the blocking begins to fade as the High Pressure diminishes and the Polar Vortex begins its track again.

Its due to start again in early-mid January with the Models suggesting another wave of long-duation of Siberian blocking, and if Mayon blows into a VEI6 Eruption this will also Globally reduce temps by 1.5'c, so were not out the woods even by Winter. Globally we will all see a temperature reduction and fluctuation in weather patterns by extremes.

Why can't deniers grasp that this has nothing to do with global warming?

When temperatures are extremely hot are you going to then believe in global warming?

Ever heard of El Nino/La Nina? Well - this is La Nina, El Nino's evil little sister

I live in a small hamlet down a farm track in Pennine Yorkshire and for over a week now, only the 4 wheel drives have been able to get out. Either because of ice or snow. Several people I know have fallen on the long lasting ice (including me) and I am still having to lug my shopping down by hand after being dropped off by taxi up on the main road. Xmas will take it to 10 days. Last winter, we had this situation for 2 weeks - which was unprecedented. It's definitely getting colder for longer. So don't tell me it's no problem 'the_denv'! Also, side roads hereabouts have been lethal for several days now.
As for the roads generally, traditionally in the UK, there have only been short lasting, occasional snow problems - not justifying the investment needed to keep them clear (unlike countries such as Canada). However this could well be changing

[edit on 23-12-2009 by unicorn1]

[edit on 23-12-2009 by unicorn1]

reply to post by budski


Really? That is all you can come up with?

If that is your only arguement then it shows that you have absolutely no understanding of how global climate works.

reply to post by nixie_nox


Global:

involving the entire earth; not limited or provincial in scope; "global war"; "global monetary policy"; "neither national nor continental

source

Warming:

To raise slightly in temperature; make warm: warmed the rolls a bit more; warm up the house.

source

As I said - a contradiction in terms, unless the whole GLOBE is warming

AGW proponents lack essential language skills, it seems.

Which is probably why they changed the name to Climate Change - because warming couldn't be proven without misrepresentation of data.

Climate Change = WEATHER.

Yeah so what it's been cold the past couple of years. Lets see if it holds up through Febuary. I still belive in global warming. I find it hard to belive with 6 billion people on this planet that we don't have an impact on the tempretures.

I've been ice fishing for 25 years. Over the past 12 years the seasons the seasons have been realy unpredictable. Some years we have ice some we don't.

I don't know if it's because of man or if it's just a cycle. But some years are normaly cold and others are abnormaly warm.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by wantsome]

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

Global:

involving the entire earth; not limited or provincial in scope; "global war"; "global monetary policy"; "neither national nor continental

source

Warming:

To raise slightly in temperature; make warm: warmed the rolls a bit more; warm up the house.

source

As I said - a contradiction in terms, unless the whole GLOBE is warming

Umm, the whole globe is warming. Specific locations are not warming, but the globe as a whole is warming. Exactly.

AGW proponents lack essential language skills, it seems.

Which is probably why they changed the name to Climate Change - because warming couldn't be proven without misrepresentation of data.

Climate Change = WEATHER.

Wrong. They didn't change the name. Global Warming and Climate Change are two different things.

Global Warming refers to greenhouse gases warming the Earth (increase in the average temperature of the Earth).

Climate Change is more broad and can include regional differences in weather (such as unusual snowstorms). It would include things such as precipitation, sea level, etc.

The idea is that global warming leads to climate change (ie. severe weather patterns).

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Nickmare]

reply to post by Nickmare


Nope.

You need to look at the averages that are used.

In some cases, it's a mean, in other cases it's median or modal - just one of the ways the figures are manipulated.

If parts of the globe cool, then it is NOT global warming except through an average, and that's manipulation of data.

And again, you're wrong about GW vs CC - there is not and has never been enough data to support either.

Even if you go back a billion years, and collect all the data (which is not possible as we have a very small understanding of the behaviour of the planet, even before factoring in something we understand even less about - solar variations) that is still only 20% of what has happened to the planet.

It's like watching a 3 hour film and then saying you understand everything that's happened based on the last 0.0000000001% of the plot.

In other words, it's bull#.

In 20 or 50 years it'll be something else being used to control us.

And like religion, this is a control mechanism - it's just because we live in a more secular society, and have brushed the surface of understanding, we suddeenly think we have all the answers.

Arrogance at it's most human and worst.

reply to post by budski


Ok first of all how am I wrong about GW and CC? All I was saying is that the two terms are different and that Climate Change wasn't used to replace Global Warming.

Second...I think both sides of the argument are being controlled. As long as we are fighting, the government and big Oil can keep doing what they please. Meanwhile, deniers have fallen victim to the subtle propaganda campaign waged by the oil companies for decades. They've managed to brain wash entire countries and populations. The poor go to war to kill and die for resources that will be sold back to the rest of the populace...and be kept controlled

Meanwhile, they put their hands into the AGW group as well, in an effort to make them look evil, and try to impose taxes, because they know people hate taxes.

You say that we can't judge that the globe is warming in the amount of time we have looked at temperature (even though we have many hundreds and thousands of years of data from different extraction methods), yet it seems like you are judging that the world is not warming based on one WINTER being a bit colder in certain regions. You have to look at the trends over an extended period of time. You have to look at the mean.

There are many methods of getting data on the temperature on Earth now, and all of them show we are warming. There are thousands of monitoring stations...and we now have satellites measuring the temperature. And groups like NASA use mathematical methods to correct data (no...not manipulate it) to account for everything that you can imagine (such as urban heat sources).

You talk like every single study used manipulated data and statistics to show that global warming is occurring. That is just not true. There are many great scientists who put out many great studies which show why the Earth is most likely warming...but they didn't have the power of the media.

You've been played



[edit on 23-12-2009 by Nickmare]

Originally posted by Nickmare



There are many methods of getting data on the temperature on Earth now, and all of them show we are warming. There are thousands of monitoring stations...and we now have satellites measuring the temperature. And groups like NASA use mathematical methods to correct data (no...not manipulate it) to account for everything that you can imagine (such as urban heat sources).

Well the true answer is we are warming and cooling through cycles. We were slightly cooler from 1937 to 1997 than we were from1850 to 1936, but the 1998 El Niño greatly increased world tempatures until 2007 were now see a cooling effect with 2009 going back to the average temps (57F world 53F US).

Cycles are directly caused by volcano eruptions and solar activity, the later we understand little about, but we do know that with every cooling stage for the last 4500 or so years volcanoes were a direct link. The little ice age that started in the 1300s was fueled by no less than 65 eruptions over a few years and that cooling period lasted until the 1850s.

I don't think anyone would argue against the point that humans affect the climate to a certain degree; the problem is to what degree. Are we a massive influence as global warming suggests or are we a small but continued influence to a cycle that has larger natural influences at work. Personally I see our influence as small but will create a warmer trend during the warming cycles than what would have been seen in the past. We will see this around 2030 when we hit a very warming trend, and humans could drive that peak up 1 or 2 degrees more. For now we will see a cooling trend until 2020 or so and then things will start to warm back up, minus any major eruptions or El Niños.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Xtrozero]

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by the_denv


I'm curious, is this weather abnormal for the UK in the winter ?

I'm from the US so I don't know what's normal for the UK. I saw some posts talking about -12c (which I think is about 10 f) and -20c (about -4 f ?) extreme temperature fluctuations in one day, and 20" of snow as if this is abnormal weather for your part of the world, is it ?

And can you please tell me what a grit truck is ?

Originally posted by Scooby Doo

So much for global warming, more like a scientific melt down...get it? meltdown.

Bad puns aside, it definitely looks as though we a heading to a new ice age.

It snowed a few days in Europe and that's a sure sign we're heading for an ice age?

It was about time we had some snow actually, I haven't seen real snow in 4 years.

It used to snow every winter, and the snow would melt completely only in March around where I lived as a child. Now everyone is in awe when they see snow, and even panics a little

This Climate debate on ATS is realy strange. Americans don't believe in Global Warming, OK. But it is now warmer then 20 years ago, so this makes no sense. Is global warming natural? Maybe - we don't know it. It seems to be warmer on mars also, so - it could be something from outside. Is it the sun? No, the sun is at a low level in its activity story.Is it a good Idea to put trillions of tons of toxins in the a atmosphere, ans water and all? No - so what is the point? What do you want. Just stop putting toxins in your environment. Need a biiiig car? NO. Neeeeed 20 Burgers a Week? Nooooooo. Need cheap, toxic stuff from china, NO - But wait, it's so cheap! I need it - are you sure?

WHAT IS THE POINT OF AMERICANS AND GLOBAL WARMING?!

That the politicians try to make business of it is nothing new....

reply to post by cushycrux


You have no proof either way.

The sun went to sleep for the last 2 years, and the temps dropped.

So where is the warming. In uk, it was very good summers in the 80, and we had hardly any snow in london. Now we are getting snow every year.

So where is your proof of warming, its been gettin cooler since 98. Our summers are rubbish now, and when you see the sun went to sleep for 2 years, and the last 2 years have been rubbish all over the world in terms of winters, just shows you its the sun.

reply to post by Scooby Doo


No, no, no.....

During summertime it's called global warming, during the winter it's climate change!!



Peace

In switzerland it's definitve warmer that in the 1980. We had long winters with snow every year on the ground for 3 months and longer. Now we have maybe 2 or 3 times snow for a week or so. More rain, more storms in winter and far less birds the whole year. And i see many plants here, i saw only in italy as a child. I mean you can have Palms now in your garden in Switzerland. Last summer was also very hot, or not?

But the climate is very complex, it can have something to do with this:

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by Scooby Doo

 

No, no, no.....

During summertime it's called global warming, during the winter it's climate change!!

Peace

Exactly.

You notice in summer if you get 1 hot day the gw people come out, when summers and winters have always been. It gets absolutely stup1d with regard to the weather.

reply to post by chise61


Yes.... Well for the last twenty odd years anyway.. We never usually get snow unill Jan and Feb, and then its usually only a bit that is why the country is so unprepared for it.. When i was a wee girl, I can remeber the snow getting up to 6 ft with snow drifts all over the place, however im very dissapointed with the lack of snow where i live.. My house is a about 100 metres from the beech, so the salty air make the ice and snow melt before it has chance to stick... I wanna make a snow man!!! Its not fair!

reply to post by chise61


I'll give you my own subjective impression from the UK.
I don't think summers are getting hotter but this last summer was certainly wetter. It lead to record fruit production in the UK.
I've also noticed the the timing of the seasons is changing. My plum tree is fruiting 6 weeks or so earlier than it was a few years back.
I have lived down a farm track with a few other households in Pennine Yorkshire the last 8 years.
If the track gets slippy, you can't get an ordinary vehicle up it. It used to be that this would happen for a couple of days in the winter. No big deal. But this last February we were iced up for nearly 2 weeks. And just now this is my 9th day of being stuck and winter has barely begun. For the first time ever, it was a problem even getting out with the dog at one point - it was just solid ice outside.
The track/road is private so we don't get council lorries laying down salted grit. That means we see things as they are with no external influences - so a pretty good barometer of the weather.
So what I am seeing is more rain, more flooding, more unpredictable weather, earlier autumn fruiting and longer colder spells (not necessarily snow) in the winter.
What this means I don't know.

Selahobed I'll send you some of my snow!



[edit on 24-12-2009 by unicorn1]