Teen slain in honour killing 'was pregnant'

A 15-year-old British girl murdered by her father in so-called honour killing was reportedly pregnant at the time of her death.

Tulay Goren disappeared in January 1999, shortly after her father told his eight-year-old son to kiss his sister goodbye as he would never see her again. Her body was never found.

Mehmet Goren, 49, was yesterday handed a life sentence for killing his daughter because of her relationship with an older man who belonged to a different branch of Islam.

As detectives admitted police had ignored “tell-tale signs” before the murder, an old school friend of Tulay’s told the BBC the teenager had admitted to being pregnant.

“One day she came in and said, ‘I’m pregnant and I’m going to run away,’ but I didn’t know if she was serious or not,” Nadia Mahmood recalled.

“I thought it was just one of those things you say.”

Tulay’s mother Hanim, who had suffered three decades of abuse at her husband’s hands, was among those who gave evidence against Goren, weeping and screaming in the witness box and demanding he reveal where the body was so she could bury it.

NineMSN News Article

Strange series of events. Interestingly, this occurred two years before 9/11 happened. What caused this man to behave in this manner? Did his daughter do anything wrong? Did justice prevail in this case? Does his religion allow such behaviour? Is this a rare, isolated example of an honour killing?

[edit on 17/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Ughhh god. This gave me a really horrible feeling. I guess as a father it completely baffles me why anyone would kill their own child. The fact that she was pregnant... It amazes me how godless people of "faith" can be. Stories like this definitely remind me of why i was an atheist.

They do it because they love Allah more than they love their children. And they believe that Allah makes them responsible, and owners of, their wives and children. Incorrect and immoral behaviour is unacceptable, and he isn't a real man who honours Allah if he does not deal with it.

So -

Religion
Ownership of family members
Entitlement
Shame
Machoism

Good combination eh?

This has nothing to do with religion.

It's pride, nothing more.

My own parents were going to kill me when I was 13, because my four older brothers, who they encouraged to continually rape me since before I remember, had finally got me pregnant.
Despite being such monsters, they could not bear the idea of people looking down on them for having a pregnant, unmarried daughter. So I was given tablets to take to kill myself. They even explained how this was necessary to preserve the family honour. And I was stupid and confused enough to think that was fair enough, and that I should do this for the sake of my family, who I still loved.

Anyway, I had to wait, locked in my room, for a week first. It was many years later I found they had used that time to take out life insurance on me. When the night came to do it I was left alone in the bathroom with the pills, my parents knowing I wouldn't disobey. Suddenly I realised how much I didn't want to die, and prayed from my heart for a miracle so I wouldn't have to. Immediately I started bleeding, and the baby came out, still just tiny; I was hardly showing at that time. I took it out to show my parents and my mother was disgusted, throwing it the wood stove, and wouldn't speak to me. Unknowingly, I'd robbed them of a house of their own.

My parents were not Muslim. They were Church of England.

No-one who knows god's love in their heart would ever be so cruel. Not even to a stranger's kid, let alone their own. My parents were atheists who believed in setting a good example to the unwashed masses by going to church, because church teaches good moral standards. (so they explained to me) My parents had no use for moral standards for themselves, they just wanted to be looked up to and treated like the royalty they believed they were.

Originally posted by DeathShield
Ughhh god. This gave me a really horrible feeling. I guess as a father it completely baffles me why anyone would kill their own child.

You can understand it as amongst some cultures women and girls are just property, with no rights.

reply to post by Kailassa


W!T!F!!

Can you explain that again?

reply to post by Kailassa


Hi Kailassa. Very sorry to hear about the horrific experiences you had when you were young. Have you considered speaking with a mental health professional? It is comforting to know that there are strong people such as yourself who are able to overcome such bad encounters and still persevere and share these things to help educate others.

Thanks for your input.

Originally posted by Detailed Perfection
reply to post by Kailassa

 

W!T!F!!

Can you explain that again?

No worries.

There are sick people in every religion, in every country, in every culture, - even in "the house at the top of the hill" in the idyllic, mainly C.of E. Australian farming village where I was born.

Things clearer now?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Hi Kailassa. Very sorry to hear about the horrific experiences you had when you were young. Have you considered speaking with a mental health professional? It is comforting to know that there are strong people such as yourself who are able to overcome such bad encounters and still persevere and share these things to help educate others.

Thanks for your input.

No, I'm not strong, and you get over something like that like you get over having your legs chopped off. However I'm only one of many who have had awful childhoods. Most off us are carrying some kind of scars.

I've just been reading a book by a girl brought up in an Australian child-stealing "Christian" cult called The Family. Fourteen stolen kids were drugged, starved and tortured by a women who convinced them she was both Jesus and their mother. (and by her drug-deranged followers) These things happen, and happen, and happen, regardless of culture or religion.

I tried psyches. The only one I could actually talk to got upset herself and burst into tears, so I couldn't tell her any more. Another got all Freudian, telling me what really upset me was not having the equipment between my legs my brothers had. Another would put on meditation music and get stoned. One tried to play footsies and said he could cure me by making me feel like a woman again. I stood up and told him it had worked, and now I was going to go find myself one.

Psyches are a waste of time.

Originally posted by Kailassa
This has nothing to do with religion.

It's pride, nothing more.

My own parents were going to kill me when I was 13, because my four older brothers, who they encouraged to continually rape me since before I remember, had finally got me pregnant.
Despite being such monsters, they could not bear the idea of people looking down on them for having a pregnant, unmarried daughter. So I was given tablets to take to kill myself. They even explained how this was necessary to preserve the family honour. And I was stupid and confused enough to think that was fair enough, and that I should do this for the sake of my family, who I still loved.

Anyway, I had to wait, locked in my room, for a week first. It was many years later I found they had used that time to take out life insurance on me. When the night came to do it I was left alone in the bathroom with the pills, my parents knowing I wouldn't disobey. Suddenly I realised how much I didn't want to die, and prayed from my heart for a miracle so I wouldn't have to. Immediately I started bleeding, and the baby came out, still just tiny; I was hardly showing at that time. I took it out to show my parents and my mother was disgusted, throwing it the wood stove, and wouldn't speak to me. Unknowingly, I'd robbed them of a house of their own.

My parents were not Muslim. They were Church of England.

No-one who knows god's love in their heart would ever be so cruel. Not even to a stranger's kid, let alone their own. My parents were atheists who believed in setting a good example to the unwashed masses by going to church, because church teaches good moral standards. (so they explained to me) My parents had no use for moral standards for themselves, they just wanted to be looked up to and treated like the royalty they believed they were.

Sorry sister but I seriously don't believe you. Sounds like Internet fantacism (SP?) to me.

So, what has been the result of this:
1/ Repeated child rape
2/Incest
3/ Incitement to suicide (I know that is also a crime but don't know the name)
4/ Child neglect/abuse
5/ Inproper disposal of human remains?

Have your family members been prosecuted and jailed ( surely anything as horrific as this would have garnered huge media coverage) or did you just decide to let bygones be bygones?

My BS detector is going off.

My (secular) parayers to the young victim in the OP.

Originally posted by virricocha
So, what has been the result of this:
1/ Repeated child rape
2/Incest
3/ Incitement to suicide (I know that is also a crime but don't know the name)
4/ Child neglect/abuse
5/ Inproper disposal of human remains?

Have your family members been prosecuted and jailed ( surely anything as horrific as this would have garnered huge media coverage) or did you just decide to let bygones be bygones?

My BS detector is going off.

My (secular) parayers to the young victim in the OP.

A 13 y o kid with aspergers, who has been brought up in a secluded area and abused since birth, does not know how to ask for help. I don't expect you to believe the aspergers part either, but I have mentioned it in other threads.

There is no law against disposing of the remains of an early miscarriage in whatever manner you choose. Seen many gravestones for 3 month foetuses lately?

The government didn't have cameras inside my house. How would anyone know what was happening.

Teachers on the 50s and 60s knew nothing about child abuse.

The local copper in that remote community was my dad's best mate, and no better himself.

People tell you to put stuff behind you and get on with life. I did.

When I finally decided, many years later, I really needed to take this to the police they said there was nothing they could do, as there was no way at that stage to get proof. My folks being well respected in the area didn't help.

Look at the numbers of kids abused by priests. Most were never listened to as kids. The cases only got somewhere when it was found the same priests had abused many different children and the stories were all similar. And when it's all kept in the family with a single victim, it's near enough to impossible to prove if no-one takes the kid out of the family and checks things properly.

How many people even now will take the word of a kid over that of a respected, educated adult in a position of authority? Most are just as sceptical as you.

reply to post by Dark Ghost

My apologies, O.P. for this getting off-topic.

My intention was to show that people don't have to be Muslims to commit honour killings. It's done to protect the proud man's/family's reputation. Neither God nor Allah have anything to do with it.

If he was practicing religion, it was an extremist version of whatever he was originally a part of. According to almost all original religions that are in books, killing anyone is a sin in some way or another.

The bottom line is he lost his mind.

reply to post by Kailassa


You know is ways to find out and prove that you were pregnant and have a miscarriage, as this leaves lesions and scars in the Uterus.

You seem very level headed after such a childhood ordeal.

I will be so mad to the monsters you call parents and brothers that I would not stop until justice is serve even if it means sending thousands of letter to let people know what they did, after all it only takes a small seed of doubt to have people questioning your claims.

Originally posted by Kailassa


My intention was to show that people don't have to be Muslims to commit honour killings.

It sure helps though. The vast majority of worldwide honor killings are islamic, and theonly countries which legally allow them are likewise islamic.

Countries where the law is interpreted to allow men to kill female relatives in a premeditated effort as well as for crimes of passions, in flagrante delicto in the act of committing adultery, include:

* Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty."[54] This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament, in 2003: a year in which at least seven honor killings took place.[55] Article 98 of the Penal Code is often cited alongside Article 340 in cases of honor killings. “Article 98 stipulates that a reduced sentence is applied to a person who kills another person in a ‘fit of fury’”[32].

Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but without premeditation) include:

* Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic code) include:

* Morocco: Revisions to Morocco's criminal code in 2003 helped improve women's legal status by eliminating unequal sentencing in adultery cases. Article 418 of the penal code granted extenuating circumstances to a husband who murders, injures, or beats his wife and/or her partner, when catching them in flagrante delicto while committing adultery. While this article has not been repealed, the penalty for committing this crime is at least now the same for both genders.[citation needed]

en.wikipedia.org...

There is a difference Kailassa.

That difference is that the behaviour your a speaking of is not entrenched in any law anywhere. It is discouraged, and horrific.

Their behaviour has nothing to do with religion.

However, honour killings are specifically about religion. Even if the modern Muslim says otherwise, there are plenty of Muslim nations that protect this behaviour. Socieities that encourage it. Governments that not only refuse to make laws against it, and discuss how making laws against it would be bad for society.

There is a difference.

Are their bad people everywhere? Yes.

Not all of them find succor in their culture at large.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Star and Flag for you post. Folks, it seems to me that Islam is getting an awful looking face of late, with all of the killing and such over their religious dogma. And I thought the Christians were bad. Islam has almost taken over Britain, let us not let them gain a hold here in America. I have no respect at all for a person who kills their child over religion, and I wish all of these Muslim killers a nice place in their own personal hell, and I sincerely hope that their 7 virgins are virgins because of their ugliness and Nazi like attitude.

Originally posted by Kailassa
This has nothing to do with religion.

It's pride, nothing more.

My own parents were going to kill me when I was 13, because my four older brothers, who they encouraged to continually rape me since before I remember, had finally got me pregnant.
Despite being such monsters, they could not bear the idea of people looking down on them for having a pregnant, unmarried daughter. So I was given tablets to take to kill myself. They even explained how this was necessary to preserve the family honour. And I was stupid and confused enough to think that was fair enough, and that I should do this for the sake of my family, who I still loved.

Anyway, I had to wait, locked in my room, for a week first. It was many years later I found they had used that time to take out life insurance on me. When the night came to do it I was left alone in the bathroom with the pills, my parents knowing I wouldn't disobey. Suddenly I realised how much I didn't want to die, and prayed from my heart for a miracle so I wouldn't have to. Immediately I started bleeding, and the baby came out, still just tiny; I was hardly showing at that time. I took it out to show my parents and my mother was disgusted, throwing it the wood stove, and wouldn't speak to me. Unknowingly, I'd robbed them of a house of their own.

My parents were not Muslim. They were Church of England.

No-one who knows god's love in their heart would ever be so cruel. Not even to a stranger's kid, let alone their own. My parents were atheists who believed in setting a good example to the unwashed masses by going to church, because church teaches good moral standards. (so they explained to me) My parents had no use for moral standards for themselves, they just wanted to be looked up to and treated like the royalty they believed they were.

#... and i thought my specific case of child abuse was bad. My story sounds like an episode of mickey mouse clubhouse compared to yours.

All i can say is that i agree with what you are illustrating. Evil Exists regardless of Faith or Creed. I've met atheists who were the most giving and loving people i had ever known. I've met many christians like that as well. I've also met Vile christians and atheists. Friend i went skydiving with? He was an anti-israel muslim and i am a pro-israel Jew, yet we were able to put our faiths beside and jump out of an airplane together.

I would really like to give you a hug one day.

i feel that justice did not prevail in this case;

sharia law and court systems and customs should have been upheld and he should not have been tried in another court system for his honor killing.

i feel the british court system should not have culturally got involved with a law case as this sets a very bad precedent for muslims in countries where sharia law and courts are present.