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TextBecause according to this, which was presented as evidence at Zacarias Moussaoui's trial, the name of the hijacker whose passport was found, Satam al-Suqami, is in fact listed.
Immediately? Define immediately. According to this, Ed Freni, the director of aviation operations at Logan airport, received a fax from American Airlines of the passenger manifests at approximately 9:30 and singled out the muslim names (based on the 1993 WTC attacks) which he then forwarded to the FBI.
Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by mikelee
I have heard Mike Bellone's half truths and distorted rhetoric before. I really believe he is less than honorable.
Could you provide some evidence for your belief concerning this guy other than your pitiful anecdotal ad hominem attack which relies heavily on....
distorted rhetoric .
Please do so, because I am totally over the pseudo-skeptics using pseudo-science and logical fallacies to distract attention away from the truth.
The TRUTH is that we need a new and impartial investigation.
I am not saying that the government did it, but what I am saying is that, at best, they are grossly negligent, and at worst it is treason.
If you want to challenge me, then use science, logic and reason.
Originally posted by Doglord
Source for "the entire plane"?
Originally posted by bsbray11
Got any sources for that?
The experts Jesse had on his show seemed to believe otherwise from you. Why? Are you saying those people we saw weren't really experts?
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Originally posted by CUBD1
While there is another thread on Jesse Ventura's "Conspiracy Theory", episode 2, dealing with 9/11, I don't feel the thread does justice to the shocking claim made by recovery worker Mike Bellone.
This requires its own thread, because the claim is that important.
No it isn't. Mike Bellone's background is NOT what you think it is. He's continuously touted as being a firefighter by these conspiracy web sites, but he isn't- he's an HONORARY firefighter, as in the NYFD granted him pretend firefighter status to show their appreciation for helping out at ground zero. All that equipment he's wearing in that photograph wasn't his, and he was only able to get into ground zero to help out becuase he has personal friends in the NYFD. In real life, he runs a children's charity. Look it up if you don't believe me.
Second, there is NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM any possible way that he could know anything about the hijackers being in the cockpit before takeoff. He was never in any position to know any such thing and he doesn't have any professional connections to be told any such thing. Look THAT up if you don't believe me.
Until there's something to back it up other than, well, nothing, don't put too many hopes on being able to use this to support your conspiracy stories, becuase with his misrepresented background and his questionable sources, there's no reason why we should take it at face value. There isn't a single person on the face of the planet who can corroborate this, and you truthers are using too many "undisclosed reports released by anonymous sources" as it is.
The recorders were not likely to survive in the WTC crashes. Of course, as always, there was a chance that some weird thing could have happened, being protected by other larger masses of debris, as the collapse occurred...(just as some surviving people were sheltered, and crawled out or were discovered buried, but alive, in the wreckage).
Originally posted by Josephus23
WRONG.
The only person that has any sort of tangible evidence corroborating him as a "supposed" hijacker was Mohammed Atta and his passport and several Qu'ran's were found in a parked car.
While Satam Al Suqami's passport was found, how can they know he was a hijacker and not a passenger on the flight if the black boxes were never recovered?
One of the clearest ideas about what happened aboard the plane came from a call that flight attendant Amy Sweeney, a 35-year-old mother of two from Acton, made to a ground worker in Boston. A transcript of the call was confirmed by the Globe.
Sweeney called flight services manager Michael Woodward and said she saw only four of the five hijackers believed to be aboard. She described them as Middle Eastern and said they had stabbed two flight attendants.
"A hijacker cut the throat of a business-class passenger, and he appears to be dead," she added. The hijackers stormed the front of the plane and "had just gained access to the cockpit."
Almost immediately, the plane changed direction and began to descend. Sweeney tried to call the cockpit, but got no response. The plane also stopped transmitting a signal from its transponder, which enhances its radar signature and gives controllers information, such as its flight number and altitude.
American Airlines and United Air Lines made their senior aviation personnel available to The Wall Street Journal, and the people who staff the airlines' system operations centers offered a chilling account of a call that Betty Ong, a flight attendant from Andover onboard Flight 11, made to airline officials.
As the hijacking unfolded, Ong punched the number 8 on a seatback GTE Airfone and got through to an American reservations agent. The agent called the system operations control center in Fort Worth at 8:27.
"She said two flight attendants had been stabbed, one was on oxygen," said Craig Marquis, the manager on duty. "A passenger had his throat slashed and looked dead and they had gotten into the cockpit."
Ong said the four hijackers had come from first-class seats: 2A, 2B, 9A, and 9B. She said the wounded passenger was in seat 10B.
The flight attendant also said the hijackers had hit passengers with some sort of spray that made her eyes burn. She said she was having trouble breathing.
"Is the plane descending?" Marquis asked.
"We're starting to descend. We're starting to descend," she said.
In her conversation with Woodward, Sweeney, the flight attendant, relayed much the same information, including crew numbers, slightly different seat numbers, and the fact that they were descending.
Sweeney's last statement was chilling: "I see water and buildings. Oh my God. Oh my God."
How can they even know that he actually boarded the plane if no video of him boarding the plane is available?
So we are back to the original problem.
The question contained two parts, and I did not say that I was referring to Satam Al Suquami's passport.
Riddle me this batman:
How did the government know who were the actual terrorists if the black boxes were not found and no video is available of anyone boarding the plane?
The previous statement is clearly racist and preys on Islamophobia.
Beyond that, let's look at how quickly the "official storyline" began to circulate.
This is Fox news reporting that Building 7 fell before it fell. If you want to take time to listen to what the news anchor says, he states as the building fell that it was due to structural damage.
REALLY?!?!?!
Originally posted by Lillydale
If you read the sentence and not even all that carefully, you can see the source being asked for would be the one which demonstrates how an entire plane is vaporized but the DNA riding inside survives vaporization and then subsequent long term fire exposure as well as being crushed. Have a source for that?
Originally posted by The Baby Seal Club
reply to post by Doglord
Doglord,
Please go re-read your post concerning the flight attendants identification of the hijackers.
"Ong said the four hijackers had come from first-class seats: 2A, 2B, 9A, and 9B. She said the wounded passenger was in seat 10B."
Now, go back to an earlier post that you submitted in which the flight manifest (seating chart) is shown. Notice anything funny? Your flight attendant id'd a Mr. Glazer, Mr. Lewin, and a Ms. Low as the hijackers. Don't sound too Muslim to me.
In addition she identified the wounded passenger as......Al Suqami.
Guess there goes that "it must have been Muslims" spin you tried to put on it.
Ong advised that an individual was
stabbed by the hijackers who appeared to be one of the passengers.
During the conversation, she identified that individual as the
passenger in seat 9B. Sadler identified the passenger as Daniel
Lewin, according to flight manifest. Ong and individuals on the
plane were able to administer oxygen to FA Number 1 and FA Number 5
appeared to be sitting next to Ong at points of the conversation.
During the conversation, Ong identified the passengers in 2A, 2B, and
10B as participating in the hijacking.
Originally posted by Doglord
Originally posted by The Baby Seal Club
reply to post by Doglord
Doglord,
Please go re-read your post concerning the flight attendants identification of the hijackers.
"Ong said the four hijackers had come from first-class seats: 2A, 2B, 9A, and 9B. She said the wounded passenger was in seat 10B."
Now, go back to an earlier post that you submitted in which the flight manifest (seating chart) is shown. Notice anything funny? Your flight attendant id'd a Mr. Glazer, Mr. Lewin, and a Ms. Low as the hijackers. Don't sound too Muslim to me.
In addition she identified the wounded passenger as......Al Suqami.
Guess there goes that "it must have been Muslims" spin you tried to put on it.
Good catch, apparently that story (filed on 11/23/01) was incorrect in some of its details.
Betty Ong, according to the FBI investigation report (PDF file)
Ong advised that an individual was
stabbed by the hijackers who appeared to be one of the passengers.
During the conversation, she identified that individual as the
passenger in seat 9B. Sadler identified the passenger as Daniel
Lewin, according to flight manifest. Ong and individuals on the
plane were able to administer oxygen to FA Number 1 and FA Number 5
appeared to be sitting next to Ong at points of the conversation.
During the conversation, Ong identified the passengers in 2A, 2B, and
10B as participating in the hijacking.
Satam al-Suqami, was on the Flight manifest as I showed in my last post. His (not mohammad atta's) passport was the "magic passport" that was found Furthermore he was actually identified by flight attendant's using an Airphone to contact American Airlines prior to the crash.
You seemed to be referring to the "magic passport" which was his. If not, whose were you referring to?
Explain to me how the passport of a "hijacker" that was both not on the flight manifest nor seen boarding the plane made it out, while also explaining to me how our government knew he was a "hijacker".
The footage wasn't live. WTC 7 collapsed at 5:20 PM EST. As can be seen at Archive.org that was broadcast at 5:25 PM EST 5 Minutes after WTC 7 actually collapsed.
Originally posted by Doglord
I was asking for a source showing that "the entire plane" had in fact been "vaporized" To the best of my knowledge, while heavily damaged and extremely fragmented, pieces of the planes did in fact get recovered.
WASHINGTON - In some cases, the attacks were swift and ruthless, the hijackers slitting the throats of passengers and stabbing flight attendants to gain immediate control of the cabin. They probably used the universal "Boeing key" to unlock the cockpit door and kill the pilots before they could even touch their radios.
In other cases, the suspects appear to have preyed upon the time-tested US response to hijackings by deceiving the pilots into believing that everything would be OK if they just obeyed orders. The hijackers even got on the intercom, telling passengers - and their enforcers in back - that it would be so, not realizing they were alerting authorities to their takeover by broadcasting over an air-traffic-control frequency.
"Who's trying to call me?" one controller asked in vain.
They were efficient, a product of practice runs, when they videotaped crew routines and even rode in cockpit "jumpseats" usually reserved for legitimate airline pilots.
The flight took off uneventfully at 8 a.m., and the last routine conversation occurred at 8:13 a.m., when the pilots were given instructions to turn 20 degrees to the right, said a federal official familiar with transcripts of the air-traffic-control conversations of all four flights
"20 right, AAL11," the pilot working the radio responded, using the simple flight code of repeating an instruction and providing an airplane's call sign.
Almost immediately, the controller told the pilots to climb to 35,000 feet, but that instruction met with silence.
According to the FBI, there were five hijackers aboard
The hijackers could have known that and shut it off. They also could have turned it off because the absence of a signal would make it harder to track the plane as it turned south from Albany, N.Y., and headed toward New York City.
aviation observers believe, hijackers gained control of the cockpit through a mixture of surprise and exploitation.
Perhaps the hijackers grabbed the key off one of the wounded flight attendants and barged into the cockpit. Perhaps they already had copied the key, having studied Boeing flight manuals and taken simulator rides in Boeing aircraft. Perhaps they opened the door with a box cutter to the neck of one of the flight attendants.
Under any scenario, it appears that the hijackers' entry was surprising enough that the pilots did not have a chance to broadcast a traditional distress call. Apparently at least one of the pilots on Flight 11 remained alive and at one of the cockpit's two control sticks, because he intermittently keyed the microphone button on the yoke so controllers could hear his conversation with a heavily accented hijacker.
The transcript of the air-traffic-control conversations shows that at 8:24 a.m., a controller heard a suspicious broadcast from Flight 11. Apparently, one of the hijackers confused the aircraft's radio with its public-address system.
Air traffic controllers and American Airlines officials sent radio and text messages to the cockpit, but got no response. Ogonowski's relatives say it is unclear whether he and McGuinness were alive when the plane hit the World Trade Center.
Originally posted by Lillydale
Originally posted by Doglord
I was asking for a source showing that "the entire plane" had in fact been "vaporized" To the best of my knowledge, while heavily damaged and extremely fragmented, pieces of the planes did in fact get recovered.
Then it is a good thing you have someone like me here to translate for you.