ATS, LHC and how we are on the verge of new Middle Ages

Originally posted by donhuangenaro

in the middle age scientists thought the Earth was flat, and everyone that questioned that dogma was either ridiculed, silenced, attacked or killed

If one wants to start denying ignorance, one can start here.

Firstly, it was known and recognized by every educated person since Antiquity (this means classical Greece & Rome) that the Earth was spherical. (A little bit of thought and observation of a lunar eclipse makes it pretty clear). Of course in the Middle Ages, a fair amount of such knowledge was lost and not known to average, ignorant people.

But nobody was ridiculed, silenced, attacked or killed because believing the Earth was round. Why would they be? Yes, they would certainly be attacked if they openly advocated ideologies which were considered heretical and thus present political opposition to the Church---but the primary flash points were not around anything as irrelevant as whether the Earth was spherical or not.

Ah yes Galileo. Let's remember that Galileo was never ridiculed or attacked by anybody who might rightly be considered like a scientist---they all respected and believed him (after they looked through his telescope). Galileo did actively use his observations---among other things---to intentionally undermine the authority of the Church for his ideological reasons, and sure enough the Church fought back. The issue wasn't about science of course, it was about political opposition. Did Saddam Hussein care if somebody believed in ET's? No he didn't give a crap, but he did crack down on anybody who would challenge his authority in any way.

Please, start to Deny Ignorance in one's own knowledge before criticizing people about how we are being like the ignorant middle ages using incorrect ignorant assertions.

same happens today when anyone have the proof that mainstream dogma is wrong (and there is a lot evidence that mainstream Newtonian/Einstein dogma is wrong about many things, but it is aggressively silenced)

There is no conclusive evidence that Einsteinian general relativity is yet incorrect on the macroscopic scale. However the very issues relating to this (big bang cosmology, dark matter/dark energy, quantum gravity) are at the forefront of astrophysics. No evidence is "silenced", by contrast, the slightest hints of anything nonstandard is happening get jumped on by eager scientists.

as for the LHC, I believe it is a huge waste of money and time because if we accept the new observations in quantum mechanics and theories like holographic universe that comes with quantum mechanics we can see that you can split atoms to infinity and not find any answers.

What new observations in quantum mechanics say that you can "split atoms to infinity and not find any answers"?

And what does this have to do with holographic universe theory?


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Originally posted by kennyb72
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

It makes me smile how the pragmatic scientific mind seems to always label religion as a dogma without recognizing the dogma within its own ranks. The honest truth is that science has very little understanding regarding the subatomic world and this is self evident by virtue of the fact they have built a multibillion dollar machine so as to gain a better understanding.

First I would like to state that I am not a scientist and probably fall into the category of an average educated layman trying to apply a little logic. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am trying to understand.

It would seem that the common argument validating the safety of smashing high energy particles together at the speed of light is, that this happens all the time in space.

Would I be correct in saying that the source of the most energetic particles in our solar system would be emanating from the sun and that these particles will be radiating in all directions away from the sun.

No.

This being the case, even if particles from the sun collided, the collision would be very low impact because they are all traveling in the same speed and direction as each other.

High energy particles can hit stationary particles like those as part the Earth.
Relativistic invariance means that what matters is the total energy in the center of mass frame (this is the actual meaning of how physicists use Galilean, and later Einsteinian relativity).

Particles that could collide with those from the sun would have traveled at least 41.5 trillion klms away from Alpha Centauri.

This is not true.

From my understanding particles lose energy over time and distance.

Only if they interact (collide) in various ways.

This being the case then the only place a collision can occur at these same energies as those traveling through the LHC would be in a binary star system or more dense area of our galaxy.

Now as we can't see, witness or measure in any great detail what happens when those particles collide at these great distances how can you be so sure that energies released would not be cataclysmic enough to at wipe out the planet?

Since the suppositions are incorrect, the conculsion is incorrect.

We have observed galactic cosmic rays (as in they hit detectors on the Earth) which appear to have higher energies than particles to be produced in LHC. LHC will make a very large number of them.

reply to post by mbkennel

I believe it is a huge waste of money and time because if we accept the new observations in quantum mechanics

Its not a waste of money, but is the wrong way to look at life in some aspects.. The Holographic universe is a bunk theory, but A reflective universe is not, and the reason why i said reflective is 2 things and let me show you what i mean by this.

In quantum machanics its basic principle is that BOTH yes and no are correct..

How can we apply this to our understading of reality and how we go about getting to grips with it?

The problem does not lie in the answers we get but lies in the question on is asking as the question will automaticaly give you the answer regardless if it was the one you was seeking as the answer you inhenrently get will be right one always "even if you think its wrong" and why?

Because WE are the observer in this case, so no matter what we think we will always have YES and NO !

we make the outcome happen just by being here "i have said this many times"

We are a universe un to our self in that respect "a walking water filled bag of chaos" on a lower order.

Let me point out two things that many people do not grasp or bother to think about..

The universe "reality" is not posible to measure nor is your mind.

That is a fact, yet no one bothers to ask why ? does that not stick out as somewhat interesting to people that the very thing we reside in is how our very mind works ?

You and i And life its self is just a mere outcome to a BIGGER question that we can not answer because we have no clue on what the question WAS but we do no the result of it.

me and you and life was the result of it.

Cant answer a question with a question, but the ironic part is you keep the question going.

maybe slightly off topic but who's carbon allowance is used to run the LHC? These days it would seem that is a bigger question than the cost or perhaps even the potential danger.
Sadly science has never much cared about risk, read some of the history of the first atom bomb ... they had some theories that said it would have a chain reaction that 'set the atmosphere on fire', it didn't stop them, they placed bets on it!
Personally I think learning more about how the universe works is great, I don't even mind paying for it, or the risk (if there is one). But the arrogant attitude is really annoying.

reply to post by mbkennel

Could you please qualify what part of my first statement warranted NO or are you actually saying that there is a source of higher energy particles within our solar system from another source. I am very interested and would like to know where this energy comes from.

the thread title is a bit deceptive methinks.

basically a thread about the importance of a 'proper' understanding of scientific concepts.

there are entities watching our timeline right now from another dimension that we don't access.

they are amused at these little scientist critters entering the vast courtyard of the universe,
barely through the doorway and one of these human critters stubs his toe on a pebble and BAM!
all the little scientist critters assemble around the pebble and begin analysing it,
ignoring the vast surroundings...
and using the pebble analysis to explain the very courtyard they neglected earlier......well yes it might explain what the yard is composed of,
the entities give credit to us for that,
but say we completely missed the point of how the use the thing.

We humans have a freaking long way to go before we are using this universe the way the aforementioned entities do, and I doubt the concerns expressed in the O' Post will prove much of an additional hindrance.

-B.Morrison

P.S) my 'crazy nonsense' may well be the closest thing to the truth you ever come across

[edit on 15/12/09 by B.Morrison]

One statement in this thread I have read several times is that "we are being dumbed down", and frankly it urks me. It's a copout.

Who is dumbing you down????
Who makes the choice to sit there and be programmed by a TV instead of reading a good science book? Who chooses to take the easy way out and work at taco bell instead of going to school?

It's easy to say "THEY" are dumbing you down, but in reality just who is REALLY doing it?

Granted it's also easy for "them" to hide anything in broad daylight from a dummy, because it's the dummy who never questions anything or takes what they are fed as gospel. The dummy doesnt even know what questions to ask.

My opinion regarding the LHC is that we are messing with things NO ONE understands. And while I am not really buying all the interdimensional crap, I do agree that there is the possibility to create a particle that could get us killed. Who the hell are we to mess with nature? Haven't we already seen enough of what happens when we do? Evidently not, so lets smash atoms until they smash us back.

reply to post by buddhasystem

I don't know if we're on the verge of a new Middle Ages, but we're definitely on the verge of something. Or maybe we're in it already but don't know what it is yet. And we certainly don't know how it will pan out.

As Gools said on another thread, we're in the midst of a massive social revolution driven by the internet. Its effects will be comparable in magnitude to those of the Gutenberg revolution.

That revolution was essentially a democratizing one. By putting information into the hands of anyone who could afford a pamphlet, it freed people from the tyranny of institutions; the Reformation, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution (I'm quoting Gools) all resulted from it. So did, in my opinion, the rise of the bourgeoisie on the one hand and Marxism/Socialism on the other, the Modern movement in art and thought, and much else besides. It may be argued that the very hallmark of modern Western civilization--the privileging of the needs and rights of the individual above those of the social group--resulted from it.

Right now, the internet and modern media in general seem to be enhancing this cult of the individual to a point where society itself is under threat. When everyone thinks they are the eye of the world-storm, cultural and civil institutions, especially the more complex and structured ones, may no longer be feasible, and democracy will give place to an anarchy of quarreling, evanescent factions.

If it does, then it will go hard with science. Basic research, especially in physics, is now too costly for anything but governments to afford it. And if the empowered unwashed fear science (and continute to manipulate government through media feedback the way spoilt children simultaneously manipulate and resent their parents), then governments will not pay for any science the mob does not like. There will be no more money for incomprehensible and therefore probably dangerous atom-smashers, for research on vaccines that the mob have been taught to fear, or even for science teaching in schools that does not bow to superstition and ignorance by incorporating reference to 'intelligent' design.

And if this happens, as well it might, then yes, buddhasystem, we will be headed, not for a new Middle Ages, but for a new Dark Age.

This will no doubt be a terrible thing; but I cannot help thinking that we're about due for one, anyway. Western civilization is in desperate need of renewal, and this will not come from any of the world's other extant cultures, all of which--I speak as an educated and well-travelled Asian--are in much worse shape than the West; it can only come, I believe, from collapse, a period of anarchy and terror, and then a rebuilding.

All this, of course, is to assume that humanity is going to survive the centuries of catastrophic climate change that are nearly upon us, and that we shall almost certainly find ourselves powerless to avert.

Either way, it is time, I think, for scientists and those of us who love knowledge to think about preserving what we have for use by those who come after us--the few who survive the evil times to come--so that it lies to hand for them when they set about resuming humanity's journey towards whatever it may be we are journeying towards.

When I was a teenager, I read a novel called A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter Miller, Jr. It was about how Roman Catholic monks set up a sanctuary for scientific knowledge that survives a nuclear holocaust. Miller's book wasn't very optimistic--at the end of it, atom bombs have begun falling on the civilization that was rebuilt with the help of the monks' preserved knowledge--but I think his anticipation for the need for such a sanctuary is the real lesson we need to derive from it. Another novel with a similar theme, this one of more recent vintage--Neal Stephenson's Anathem--makes the same point in a more hopeful way.

I think we--the civilized few left standing upon the tiny rock of culture and science, threatened by the flood-tide of barbarism rising around us--should take some thought for a future in which knowledge and science will face far greater challenges even than the ones they do now.

reply to post by buddhasystem


IMO, you're wrong on so many levels here mate, it's worrying.

You're obviously educated and intelligent, which makes me wonder at your apparent lack of insight.

Firstly, people come here because they ENJOY thinking differently and exercising and stretching their perceptions..this obviously includes a desire to know the absolute truth of a matter, but i suspect many here, enjoy the mystery, apprehension and wonderment at the 'fantastic factor' equally or even more. The journey being the point, as it were.

To express exasperation at the seemingly fantastic theories and conclusions reached by many members of ATS, and conclude yourself that this is due to a poor education or understanding of basic physics or fundamental physical laws is itself a flawed view.

While undeniably true in some cases, this is not true of the majority of people who post these 'outlandish' theories and opinions. There are those here who have quite sophisticated educational backgrounds, and occupy what would be considered by many as important positions in science orientated occupations as well as other more traditional roles.

Why is it so apparently alien and offensive to your psyche that educated and/or intelligent people enjoy flights of fancy? A chance to let loose in a safe environment, with no serious threat to their everyday ordinary positions, careers or self esteem, considering the anonymity here?

As for the LHC and the theories surrounding that particular nugget of controversy, of course people of all backgrounds and experience levels are going to make of it what they will! It's the nature of being human isn't it?...especially so when the project lead himself said during an interview last year, that the science team really don't know exactly what will happen (if they can get it working properly) when they fire it up.
And that was from the project lead..what do you think people are going to make of that!?

The largest, most expensive, most time consuming science experiment ever conceived and built by humanity..and in response to the question "What do you expect to happen when the LHC is turned on..what do you expect to discover?", He says.."If i'm being honest, i don't know for sure exactly what will happen..we hope we are going to find the elusive ...etc etc...but we don't really know, what will happen!

Controversial to say the least. And debate provoking too..wouldn't you say?

It's pretty arrogant to assume that people do not understand the concepts of physics, or will not have the intellectual capacity to fathom what 'scientists' are talking about, simply because they proffer 'alternative' views on our physical world and beyond..which is mostly hyperbole or fantasy anyway, as i alluded to earlier. While advanced theories are going to be broadly beyond the complete understanding of the general public, people will have a general idea of what the goals are provided they have a sufficient interest.

Thinking outside of the box as it were, doesn't neccessarilly equate to lack of intelligence or education, often times, it implies the opposite in fact.

Strange that you should use the 'Energy in a bucket of water' analogy to support your reasoning, as their is potentially a huge amount of energy contained in the average sized bucket of water!

Surely you know this? The chemical constituents alone contain vast potential energies, never mind what could be achieved using the theoretical bucket of water combined with gravity to drive a water turbine, a static battery, combined with solar energy to create steam, heat exchangers etc etc..it was probably one of the worst analogies you could have chosen to support your post!

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that governments around the world, do not engage in secrecy and black budget operations and activities? Do you imagine that military technology is at the same level of sophistication as that of publicly available technology? If you really do believe that secrecy and technological suppression does not occur in the real world, then IMO you are very much mistaken, and more than a little naive.

As has been pointed out regarding the Norway anomaly, there are a few 'secret' government/military projects that could possibly account for it, and is being actively discussed by ATS members...why do you consider this to be a 'dangerous trend if it continues'?

Is it that you consider our respective governments and scientific institutions to be beyond reproach?
That they are completely honest with us regarding their activities and goals? Again, i would judge this attitude to be extremely naive, and frankly inaccurate, as history will attest to.
By that token, it is a dangerous trend NOT to question governmental and scientific actions.

I don't think there is a chasm of deficit in the understanding of science, so much as there is a chasm of the desire to learn about science, especially advanced topics.
This is different from being able to understand, it's more about not being interested. The fact that there is a pervasive arrogance and an inflexible attitude towards not upsetting dogmatic methodologies probably doesn't do much to motivate many folks to get into science in the first instance.

Occam's razor is only 'probably' correct...there are no absolutes within it's meaning..only probables. Why should people's imaginations be constrained by a principle which may or may not only be 'probably correct'...coming from a scientific mind such as yours, citing 'probably correct' being a desirable standard to measure ATS postings is frankly suprising.

I DO hear what you are saying, and the point you are seeking to convey, but by a similar vein, you don't appear to be listening to the essensce of what ATS members are seeking to convey and the reasons they have for doing so.

Reading between the lines is essential around here.

Originally posted by Chett
We (the people) have developed a healthy distrust of science and the gov.

It's not a 'healthy' distrust. It's just the stupidity and paranoia of over-indulged, coddled Westerners whose politicians have been kowtowing to them for too long.

It's your government, for heaven's sake. You elected it into power. If you think your elections are rigged, do something about it. If you don't like your system of government, change it. If you can't do any of this because the majority won't let you, it means the problems you see don't exist, and the system is actually doing pretty well however little to your personal taste it may be.

Of course governments have secrets, especially in the area of defence. They are supposed to have secrets; it's all part of seeking advantage over potential enemies and that is what you voted them into office to do: protect you.

As for 'getting data'--obviously some will be restricted (for excellent defence-related reasons). But there is really very little of that. Other information is protected by its originators for reasons of commercial advantage--nothing wrong with that either, unless you're a Communist. But on most subjects, information is readily available, all you have to do is pay for it. What do you want, the secrets of the universe delivered free of charge over the internet? Dream on.

Then we have things like the climategate e-mails and destruction of data.

There is no 'climategate'. Anthropogenic global warming is real. What disgusts me is people who deny it just because they don't want to pay the price of their filthy polluting ways. I'm sure their great-grandchildren, poor little stunted mutant beggars, will bless their names while they're sucking filthy air through straws while up to their necks in hot water. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by buddhasystem(snip)

I believe that as a society, we are at a critical juncture where important points in advanced sciences are no longer accessible to public at large. There is only so much that can be done in "popularizing" science. It's a two-way street -- science must be presented in a way it can be understood, with some effort, by an average educated person - but said person should be willing to make that effort. Unfortunately, in the culture of instant gratification, this doesn't happen too often. It's a lot easier to take a shortcut of declaring that the government is hiding some "secret knowledge" and scientists are complicit in that since they are on the govt payroll etc. This way anybody can explain that it is possible to extract energy out of a bucket of water, or open a portal to a parallel universe, or that there is thriving life on Venus etc etc. One of my favorites is the claim that the recent atmospheric phenomenon in Norway is evidence of a secret plot to fake global warming. Just charming...

In my view, this is a dangerous trend which will continue unless we achieve much higher levels of education compared to what we have now. There is tremendous progress being made in life sciences, for example, which will bring about important challenges and choices we'll have to face as a society. Same applies to energy sector etc. I just don't see how we can have rational public policies going forward, if there is such a chasm between those who know and those who don't.


[edit on 14-12-2009 by buddhasystem]

The problem is mainly that kids that are interested in learning science are put off at an early age. They go to school to learn but instead they´re just taught to memorise and tow the line.

My youngest son is 10 and he loves biology and chemistry and reads numerous articles on the internet and has numerous books in his bedroom. He bought his first chemistry kit when he was 5. However, his school exams have poor marks in the subjects because he´s not allowed to question what he is told are facts. It´s not just my son and one school though because lots of my friends have the same problem with their kids who are all pretty much learning and teaching themselves using the internet and not just sciences but art, history, languages and probably loads more too.

My son´s main interest is the oceans and he´d love a career in that field but with low school exam results in biology and chemistry he won´t stand a chance. He has the enthusiasm for the subject but finds the rigid school text books boring and they don´t allow his mind to ask ´what if´ questions which I always thought science was about - if no-one asks ´what ifs´ then how can new discoveries be made?

My daughter loved physics but not anymore and she´s applying to Uni to do mathematical engineering instead but there´s only 15 places at each of the 5 univerisities she´s allowed to apply to. She was put off physics for the same reason my son is being put off biology and chemistry - not allowed to question any official ´facts´ and without scientists questioning what we think we know then how can we ever move forwards? Kids that are enthusiastic about the wonders of the world soon lose interest when they´re constantly knocked back and their own theories are dismissed as worthless. Maybe at age 10 my son´s theories aren´t great but he shouldn´t have the enthusiasm constantly knocked out of him to the point of where he will stop speculating and wondering and will just accept what is presented in a text book.

There are numerous kids out there that have a genuine interest in all sciences but they´re put off pursuing it - what a shame. Is that a conspiracy in itself? Is investigative science being kept away from the majority for a reason? How do we "achieve much higher levels of education compared to what we have now" when schools/governments won´t allow anything but what is written in an official school text book? Until that changes then those of us that haven´t had the wonder knocked out of us will still continue to speculate based on something being improbable but certainly possible - we´re not actually allowed to know any better!

[edit on 15-12-2009 by Maya00a]

Hang on a minute, believing that the government is not hiding secrets from its populace is one thing but to assume they are not trying to gain more power by investing in new methods to control people is just down right scary.

Ok here is where we come to a slight problem with classification. You cant just openly blame " the government " for all the ills of the world but YOU can blame certain individuals connected to and working for the government as we see it. Now you can say guilty by association but thats not very fair so lets just say this.

People in power want to maintain that power in fact the reason they are in power is because they love it so much. Try to take a crack pipe away from a crack head and see how long you last.( i wouldnt know im just assuming it wouldnt be much fun)

regardless science and scientist are the new high priests and religions of the world. They are the keepers of knowledge and we are the ignorant masses who need them to tell us why the sun has disappeared behind the moon.

Dont be ignorant and assume that the governments that pay the grants of most research scientists are going to just hand that info out to the general public as soon as it is discovered before first figuring out how to exploit it and if it cant be exploited how to make sure nobody else figures it out.

Why do i believe this beacuse the people in power have shown again and again what they are willing to do to stay in power. actions speak louder than words and the actions of the people in power is what has resulted in the state of the world as it exists today.

The only way to get to the top is through greed betrayal manipulation and corruption. This applies to scientific institutions just as much as political ones. Once the human ego is involved with something it always turns to crap. And that IS a fact.

Im off to bed have fun.

Originally posted by sliceNodice
Have you ever considered the fact that hawking radiation is still a theory? Have you ever considered the fact, that maybe the LHC will create a new particle with undetermined properties? Properties, that could for example, lead to loss of human life in the form of an explosion? Have you ever considered that maybe we still haven't discovered 1/1000 of 1% of the universe's secrets?

People have a right to be worried about this thing. We are colliding particles at energies many many times higher than ever before. This is uncharted territory, and I'm putting that lightly... This machine is a shining example of human ignorance. No wonder ATS is scared of this thing

[edit on 14-12-2009 by sliceNodice]

I don't think there is anything to be scared of. I believe they will find whatever they are looking for with the LHC. The answers they already expect to find will quite happily present itself right in front of them and they will wet themselves with excitement.

The problem is they will not find the truth until they stop looking. Silly people with their big contraptions.



Peace

[edit on 15-12-2009 by itstheendoftheworldaswekn]

reply to post by kennyb72


Learn a little about einstein theory of relativity will blow all your assumptions apart. once things reach even half the speed of light all the standard resonoing of speed, distance and 'relativity' change completely.

e.g two cars pass at 30miles an hour each, one sees the other pass at 60 miles an hour 'relative' to it self. Two objects passing at half the speed of light, see each other at half the speed of light. Because nothing even relative to another object can be equal to or more than the speed of light.

Crazy brain bending stuff like this is why I have an interest in science

Oh and tons of particles eminate from the center of our galaxy at 99.9999999999999999% the speed of light. they will not lose energy unless it is coverted i.e to heat by coliding with another object.

i`d like to discuss science if there is not that much science left to be solved.

i`ve allways wondered why the earth rotates around the sun in a year and has a daily spincycle yet the moon rotates around the earth and has no spin cycle.

could someone please explain this to me in lehmans terms

reply to post by l77way


G r a v i t y

moon is captured in our gravity and is STUCK facing earth and has no poles "magnetics" kinda thing "it does but not enough so it spins about" aka momentum"

It does ORBIT earth but not in the same way we orbit the sun..

its a rock with no momentum... my self i think its not even a body that should be were it is .. just because of physics but hey im just a nobody LOl

techincaly it should spin but it dont ..

but a lot of moons dont spin ... because they have been pulled into the orbit of the planet they are close to.

i can list moons that dont "spin" on other planets but that spoils the fun of you looking

[edit on 15-12-2009 by 13579]

reply to post by buddhasystem


The majority of people are ignorant of science. Despite teaching science in school it seems to have been overtaken by the humanities and what i would consider to be other less important subjects. I think you are correct in saying that science can only go so far in putting everything into terms that most people can understand.

The problem however, as you have already identified is how to put policy in place when people don't understand the science. We have newspapers printing insane stories that have no basis and scaring everyone into thinking that science is out of control and we're all about to die tomorrow. From the scare to do with the LHC to the "grey goo" theory of nanotechnology it seems the public are being frightened by it all.

What can be done? I must admit i'm stumped. Science has brought us to a point in history where astronauts walking in space is common, cancer being successfully treated is the norm and where the general life of individuals within developed nations is far better than only 50 years ago.

Despite all of these advances which should be obvious to everyone it just seems like science is becoming less and less trusted. Personally i say leave science policy to the scientists! We have heads of this sort of thing for a reason.

reply to post by DJOldskool

Hi DJOldskool

Until there is an accepted unified field theory, don't you think it is a little bold to make your assumption that Einsteins "theory" of relativity is an actual fact.

Surely part of the research being conducted is to fill in the blanks that Einstein himself was unable to achieve.

Charge invariance refers to the fixed electrostatic potential of a particle, regardless of speed.

As stated in Wikipedia "The origin of charge invariance (indeed, all relativistic invariants) is under speculation presently".

This tells me that the science is not complete with regards to the very nature of matter but science is quite willing to take the chance based on unfinished theory and theory under review, that performing high energy experiments (which we already know has the capacity to make a very big bang) is OK by them.

I would just like to inform you now, that the planet we all live on is not and never will be your private science experiment.

Excuse my manners "with all due respect"

The fact that science is happening again should not carry any worry as most of you have stated, its not like this hasn't happend before the only difference is that today the public get to see and alot more scientist participate in what is going on and countries are combine together to achive a goal, as for the LCH i personally will like to see what development happends as ever more energy is applied to particile btw 900Gev and 1.3trillion volts,particles being smarsh together see this in space all the time but think how interestine it will be able to control this processes and develop it into workable result as science has always done.

Originally posted by kennyb72
It makes me smile how the pragmatic scientific mind seems to always label religion as a dogma without recognizing the dogma within its own ranks. The honest truth is that science has very little understanding regarding the subatomic world and this is self evident by virtue of the fact they have built a multibillion dollar machine so as to gain a better understanding.

Our knowledge of the sub atomic world is actually pretty good. The standard model has many subatomic particles to it which were predicted and then discovered. The Higgs would be the final part of that puzzle. Well final may not be the absolutely correct word but it would mean we know we're on the right track and as we have predicted and then found many particles without destroying the world it seems we're pretty safe.

Originally posted by kennyb72
It would seem that the common argument validating the safety of smashing high energy particles together at the speed of light is, that this happens all the time in space.

Would I be correct in saying that the source of the most energetic particles in our solar system would be emanating from the sun and that these particles will be radiating in all directions away from the sun.

This depends what you mean. There are gamma ray bursts, many times more powerful than our sun that enter our solar system but yes the sun produces tons of highly energetic particles.

Originally posted by kennyb72
This being the case, even if particles from the sun collided, the collision would be very low impact because they are all traveling in the same speed and direction as each other.

They slam into our magnetosphere at the speed of light, although heavier particles are slower of course.

Originally posted by kennyb72
Particles that could collide with those from the sun would have traveled at least 41.5 trillion klms away from Alpha Centauri.

Nope, the suns radiation is reflected back at it by all sorts of sources including earth but that's not really that important.

Originally posted by kennyb72
From my understanding particles lose energy over time and distance. This being the case then the only place a collision can occur at these same energies as those traveling through the LHC would be in a binary star system or more dense area of our galaxy.

I believe it is Newton's first law of motion that states an object will continue on it's path, without losing velocity so long as no other force acts upon it, (ok i just butchered the original wording but the idea is correct). In space you have a vacuum which means the particles, travelling at the speed of light from Alpha Centauri, so long as they do not encounter any interference will arrive in our solar system still travelling at the speed of light.

Originally posted by kennyb72
Now as we can't see, witness or measure in any great detail what happens when those particles collide at these great distances how can you be so sure that energies released would not be cataclysmic enough to at wipe out the planet?

If the energy were cataclysmic in a binary system, enough to wipe out our planet for example then it stands to reason that would be enough energy to wreak havoc on the binary system. However we can observe binary systems and see no evidence of the sorts of energies you are talking about. W would expect to see a random rise and fall in energy as particles collided.

A further point is that particle accelerators already operating bash particles together travelling close to the speed of light. The LHC does it with more power absolutely but the increased energy will not destroy the world. The particles being smashed together only have so much mass afterall and we can work out the amount of energy that should be released as we have reliable models from other coliders to work with.

The LHC has already been tested at a lower level and so far the planet has not been sucked into a black hole, taken back in time, blown to pieces or anything else.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]